14-02-2003 14:01									#31
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Hurricane is our only really good place to work on a wonder until we get into Republic, and I think the scale of war production you guys are talking about is completely ridiculous given the fact that we already have a "strong military" relative to Vox. We'll have another settler in about seven more turns or so (assuming disease doesn't strike yet again), and I view the #4 site as a good place for another barracks in addition to Bolderberg's.

With an aqueduct under Republic, Tempest has potential to be a very nice wonder city, but for the moment, I think its best use is building workers so EotS and Cyclone don't have to worry about them as much. With two irrigated FPs and an irrigated plains, it should be able to crank out workers in five turns without having to bother with a granary.

	14-02-2003 14:13									#32
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Nathan, it's not only Vox. Map Making is approaching quickly, and we know, the main continent is overcrowded and technologically advanced. My fear, that somebody from there settles our coast (may be even our incense desert) gets more and more real. At the moment, we wouldn't be able to kill a single Spearman. The time we use to build a military would give them time to ship in more units and make it a fortress.

The minimum I'd consider to build, is 2 stacks of a Spearman and a Swordsman each, 3 WCs, plus 2 or 3 Spearmen to fortify on strategical important points. That's a total of 9 or 10 units to be built during the next about 25 or 30 turns. That's not that many, btw.

	14-02-2003 14:19									#33
	Got spare money?

For the Swordsmen we could just reserve x amount of gold for an emergency upgrade. If Vox is going to be slower on their Philosophy than we are on Code of Laws, it would be a good time to build up that reserve.

I agree we need some WC's and (more) Spearmen soon.

	14-02-2003 14:25									#34
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We have about 70 gold and would need only 1 turn to make 2 upgrades. In fact, next turn we'll save some extra money, because we make much more gold than the remaining part of Writing costs beakers. So 2 upgrades ain't an issue, although it would use up our whole reserve. Tempest is built on a gold hill, which also increased our research pace.

	14-02-2003 14:31									#35
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Can you really see someone from the main continent sparing the units to heavily fortify a city on our continent, given the tensions over there? Also note that either they would have to put a settler in their galley without knowing when they might find a good place to use him (which would only make sense if a civ has run out of room for REXing at home) or they'd have to get a galley to our shores, see that there's a good opening, and then bring in another galley with a settler (hoping in the meantime that we or Vox wouldn't claim the land while their settler is in route). I'm inclined to view the "heavily fortified foreign city" scenario as an unlikely one, and it's also one we could deal with if we have to when the time comes - preferably by diplomatic means, but by military means if necessary.

Also, if we want to get the Pyramids shortly after we enter Republic (and if we want them at all, we need to aim for shortly after Republic in case we have competition), we need to go ahead and get started - especially if we don't want to compromise our REXing. And ultimately, getting all our cities in place is the best way to fend off ambitious foreign galleys.

Nathan

	14-02-2003 14:42									#36
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If I were on the main continent, would see that my civ runs out of room soon (which is apparently already the case) and would know about another continent to be reached safely with a galley, my first galley would already contain that settler and vet spearman. And none of these civs wishes us to survive long, I can assure you. A city on our continent is a potential risk and a big strategical disadvantage on the long run. They could (and most likely would) stockpile an invasion force there over the time, and we wouldn't even notice it.

And, btw, I would not dare to play any MP game based on "may be" and "unlikely". Expansion without military is as worthless as military without expansion. Both have to coexist in the right relation.

	14-02-2003 14:50									#37
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SR/NYE/Aeson & Lawrence are right: we need the military now, and not when someone loads settler & spearman pair onto the Incense hill.

If that happens, and we start building forces to take back the incense, by the time we have enough forces, they have already built walls there and sent few vet spears to reinforce the garrison.

Finally someone speaks up ! Seems like i wasnt the only one who has been worrying about Immortal invasion and all the deals made with Vox.

I feel bit the same way that Theseus in his "Is it just me" thread a while back. It seems like few big guns (for example DeepO & nbarclay - "We must build GL in Hurricane") are deciding all the actions. Even if we hold a poll and the result is not good in their opinion - hmm another poll on same subject comes up, or third, if the masses still dont agree.

I myself have almost stopped posting here since it makes no difference what we small guys say, i'll just play the PBEM games quietly. I still read most of the threads and suffer quietly.

Sir Ralph is doing a great job, but seems like NYE had more influence over the people, atleast people didnt argue with him so much. Seems like few individuals oppose most of Sir Ralphs proposals just for personal reasons ?

Haa - very agitating post - but propably a wasted one anyway.

	14-02-2003 15:11									#38
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I agree that we have to be prepared for the unlikely, but what I object to is that you seem inclined to let the unlikely dominate your planning. I'm all for making contingency plans to deal with something like an unexpected landing, but they should be just that - contingency plans that we can put into effect when and if the need arises.

By the time galleys come calling, Bolderberg will have its barracks and could have a second vet spearman well underway. We have lots of warriors floating around, and lots of income to upgrade them to swordsmen if we suspend research for a few turns. It's not like a landing on our coast is something we would have no way of coping with unless we delay starting a wonder in Hurricane to build more troops first.

But consider the cost if we go for the Pyramids and miss them by a couple turns because we spent too much time building military units that turned out to be unnecessary. My philosophy is, "Focus on the likely, but be prepared for the unlikely."

By the way, as far as I'm concerned, WCs don't even enter the picture until we get Republic for anything short of a major war. For minor skirmishes, we're a whole lot better off sticking with swordsmen and saving our GA.

Nathan

	14-02-2003 15:28									#39
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Conqueror:

Nathan is doing a great job as chief economist and de-facto diplomat to Vox. And we knew already at the time we created the Scholia, that the Adam Smith Foundation would have the most influence. So Nathan does only his job, and based on pure economy most, if not all of his decisions are absolutely correct. But the game is more than pure economy. This is not an SP game against the very predictable AI. We have to deal with human brains.

And here stand I (mostly alone, sometimes with help) with my "what if"s. I'm by God not a warmonger, but I don't like that paper thin defense gamble either. If the barbarians were not at Chieftain, they alone could cause us big trouble, not counting the other teams. All I can do is to sermon "this is not SP, people". MP games have to be balanced in growth and strength. The fact, that the main continent runs out of room soon, makes a war more likely. They have a small productive core, while we (REXing) have a widespread network of undeveloped and half corrupt size 1 cities. Our productive core is busy to build settlers, workers and a few weak defenders, not a match for the other teams.

So if you decide "not to post, because it makes no difference", you are hurting our common cause, because in this case the "doves" will soon see me just as something like Kassandra, and their reaction will be only "yea, , you already told this". In fact, it starts already to be so. So if you also want a more balanced game, please, let your voice hear more often instead to resign.

What concerns Nathans sometimes, well, "dominating" way to discuss, I still can take it. If I can't bear it anymore and lose the fun, I will let the team know. But this moment is not yet close.


Nathan:

Most of our warriors are regulars. They are good as barbarian hunters and to rig the statistics, not more. Do you really want multiple times to shell out whole 40 gold to upgrade a regular warrior?

	14-02-2003 15:48									#40
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Conqueror, I've had the, "Can we handle it if Vox sends in immortals?" question in mind all along. We definitely need enough forces that what we have, plus the warriors we can upgrade to swordsmen in a reasonable amount of time, plus whatever units we can build, will be able to meet a threat.

But we do have time and distance as allies. We'll see Voxian forces a number of turns before they can hit us. Similarly, an overseas civ can't just teleport units to a new city it founds on our continent.

I definitely want new cities with barracks to be a high priority for us because in the longer term, we'll need a stronger defense and then a potential offense. But I hate losing time on our city that's in the best position to compete for ancient wonders, because we need to look not just to our defenses now but also to building up the economic and scientific base to go on the offensive later.

Nathan

	14-02-2003 16:10									#41
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quote: Originally posted by Sir Ralph Most of our warriors are regulars. They are good as barbarian hunters and to rig the statistics, not more. Do you really want multiple times to shell out whole 40 gold to upgrade a regular warrior?

Do I want it? Definitely not. Am I willing to accept it as a contingency plan for events I view as not particularly likely? Yes. The real question is how likely are foreign civs to send a settler to another continent where any city they might found is likely to be highly corrupt, and where the mere presence of a city could easily start a war. Personally, I consider such a move crazy, but then my own relatively conservative style of play is almost certainly biasing my expectations to some extent. If even a large minority of the team considers it likely that someone else will try to send a settler and spearman our way in the first few turns after discovering Map Making, I'd be willing to defer to that judgement and base our planning on the idea that it is more than just an unlikely contingency we need to be prepared for just in case.

Also note that what we're doing is not going to be a classic REX where cities always build settlers practically the moment they hit size 3. I envision getting the vast majority of our settlers and workers out of EotS, Cyclone, and Tempest, and probably never letting another city drop below size 2 to build a settler (and then only if we're reasonably happy with the shape our military is in). So we'll have almost as good a production in our core cities other than the pumps as we would if we didn't keep REXing, and even the pumps could serve as production powerhouses in a pinch (although disease creates periods when EotS is temporarily unable to serve in that capacity).

Nathan

	14-02-2003 16:19									#42
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quote: Originally posted by nbarclay I envision getting the vast majority of our settlers and workers out of EotS, Cyclone, and Tempest, and probably never letting another city drop below size 2 to build a settler (and then only if we're reasonably happy with the shape our military is in).

This would leave Bolderberg as only producer of units, opposed to 3 cities to produce settlers/workers. I consider this to be not enough. Let Tempest build a barracks and defenders/WCs too, as NYE and others suggested. Then Hurricane could start a wonder as was planned.

quote: and even the pumps could serve as production powerhouses in a pinch (although disease creates periods when EotS is temporarily unable to serve in that capacity).

I know this and am practizing it in one of my PBEMs (Dominae, you aren't reading this, are you?). My settler factory makes 3 turn swordsmen without a time needed to fit it to military production. This helps a lot, but doesn't compensate other cities with barracks though.

	14-02-2003 16:40									#43
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Under Despotism, Tempest is not an efficient barracks city. It needs a mined hill for each irrigated FP, and the combination only yields the production that two mined regular grasslands would bring. I view pumping out workers as a much better way to play to that site's strengths. Further, once we get out of Despotism and get Construction, Tempest becomes our best potential wonder city and will likely be too busy to get much use from a barracks.

In another ten turns or so, we should have the #4 site settled. That's going to be a much better place for a Despotism-era barracks, especially once we get a worker or two in the area to help out. I'm not thrilled with the delay, but I think the long-term advantage of getting extra workers out of Tempest outweighs the short-term risks.

Nathan

	14-02-2003 16:47									#44
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Another delay, sigh! Where is the #4 site? I haven't access to the map or our mails right now. Is it halfway productive? In how many turns (including the 10 turns delay) will it have a barracks? I guess it's 25, if not more.

	14-02-2003 17:28									#45
	Support Apolyton

Think about the big picture, guys- Tensions are high in the continent (take note of thef the pics from the main board, hopefuly they are not a fake) and military buildup race will swallow some of the teams production capabilities- they won't spare them to this adventure like you envision. We have a non threatening neighbor who repeatedly said how he fears us with whom we have a tech partnership. We sit on an island which is pretty far from the mainland (although only few water tiles sperate us, we are still very far from the starting position of most civs).

The conclusion is simple- focus on economic buildup, thus using our isolation and pacified neighbor to gain an advantage, and not waste our effort on an early military which we probably not use for a long while.
The chances for foreign invasion is so small IMHO, that i don't think its worth considering right now- we should build military powerhouses, but there is no need to rush it nor to delay any wonder building or other projects for it, not with the situation as it is now.

	14-02-2003 18:13									#46
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#4 is 6,3 of Cyclone. It will have a wheat, some shielded grassland (4, 1 in the city square) and a forest to work with.

	14-02-2003 18:30									#47
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Personally, I don't mind the emphasis beeing on economics so far, I don't see anyone trying to mess with us for a while.

	14-02-2003 18:47									#48
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I have to agree. We are not under any real threat. Vox will not attack because they are still weak, and their military advisor and power histograph will tell them that we are clearly stronger. I don't expect any galleys from the mainland loaded with mil. units - they've got enough problems of their own, and they know that such a method of attack is not effective at this point.
In any case, if something does turns up, we can always upgrade our warriors and meet with the opposition before they arrive to our cities, thanks to our roads and our early warning. In the mean time, we can lay back, build another warrior/spearman from time to time and concentrate on growth and commerce.

	14-02-2003 22:29									#49
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Yep, another pacifist here... while military is undoubtably one of the most important aspects in MP, it is not yet our biggest concern. If we are building a settler in EotS now (and it sure looks that way ), it can settle #4, and let's make that into a barracks city. As we already have one barracks up for emergencies, another ready in 9 or 12 turns (depending on the level of corruption in Bolderberg, could also change depending on which tiles we use (extra growth or not)), IMHO making #4 our next barracks city should be enough for the moment. I would rather have Tempest building a library instead, it is going to be our 3rd commerce city for a while, better to exploit that advantage some more.

We're already half capable of attacking Vox (not defending against, even attacking), and the others are at least 25 turns from reaching us with a galley, if they prebuild one and let it head straight down. I doubt we'll see this kind of focus given the tense situation on the mainland.

DeepO

	14-02-2003 22:54									#50
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quote: Originally posted by Conqueror I feel bit the same way that Theseus in his "Is it just me" thread a while back. It seems like few big guns (for example DeepO & nbarclay - "We must build GL in Hurricane") are deciding all the actions. Even if we hold a poll and the result is not good in their opinion - hmm another poll on same subject comes up, or third, if the masses still dont agree. I myself have almost stopped posting here since it makes no difference what we small guys say, i'll just play the PBEM games quietly. I still read most of the threads and suffer quietly. Haa - very agitating post - but propably a wasted one anyway.

Conqueror, I was saddened by your post, because it proofs that our team is not working optimally yet. Sir Ralph and Nathan have said very true things, most importantly the message that if you don't post your concerns, the team will have lost valuable input, and balance.

I do not want to decide any actions, on the contrary, I consider any option good, as long as it has a support from the majority. I'm sure we can have a fun game any way we chose. Of course, I'm campaigning from time to time for things I would like most, or things I consider a good way to follow, but that doesn't mean I'm not taking your views in consideration, quite on the contrary. Of course, you need to voice them, I'm no telepath.

What the importance of the big 'posters' (not 'guns', next thing you'll say 'hitters' ) is concerned: both Nathan and myself act from a scholia, Nathan is chief econ, and one of the most important ambassadors (which takes a huge amount of time, BTW), and I'm a member of the diplo scholia, and twice ambassador too. We're not part of the Spartan Academy, nor do we decide on Spartan things (we sometimes advise if nobody else is available), this is an area that has been underrepresented in the post count. This doesn't mean that that scholia or its members have anything less to say in our team, on the contrary even, every post of Theseus, Arrian, asleep, nye or any other of the 'smaller' posters is carefully analysed, as it is the only input we have. Be more active, and the game will certainly shift more towards your view, I'm sure. Not posting denies us the balance we'll need to win.

DeepO

	14-02-2003 23:12									#51
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The biggest concern I have is if Vox has ever had a Warrior at 8,8 from Hurricane? How far south did their explorers get? It would take us 5 turns to hook up Iron from our current setup, and we only have 3 turn warning along the eastern seaboard where our Iron source and potential wonder city are located once Map Making is available. In our current state, 2 Immortals landing on or next to the Iron could do us a huge amount of damage. With 3 turn warning we wouldn't be able to save our wonder build and the city and may very well lose both along with our Iron resource.

I don't think Vox has had that view (can't tell for sure from what I've read), and they probably don't guess the sorry state of our military. If they do see our Iron though, it may be their best chance to turn things around and so should be planned for. In their shoes I would send the galley with Immortals, and if it did look good (like how it looks now), land them. If we looked prepared (say the Iron already hooked up, or a Spearman on it and in the city), just say 'oh, we're looking for crossings' knowing the units on board aren't visable.

Also, we should explore the coast of the west desert. We shouldn't assume that there won't be a galley crossing there until we explore along the shore and check the sea merges into ocean and not coast. We have two Warriors in the area doing nothing important, let them go on vacation to the beach for a turn... A crossing there could make a lot of difference both offensively and defensively, as well as possibly from an expansion viewpoint.

	14-02-2003 23:18									#52
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Aeson, I just send you the last turn (2630 BC)before we convinced Vox that we didn't want them to proceed any further. at that time, one warrior was 8887 from Hurricane, the other was 33 from the whale on the West coast. He came from the mountains, so saw a little further.

Vox has been given a description of our lands, which was rough, but still quite accurate. It should be in the Diplo Log...

DeepO

	14-02-2003 23:23									#53
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Another point is whether Vox knows our iron source... we told them of our second source, but I'm not sure if Nathan said were it was exactly (don't think so, but can't say for sure)

West coast exploring: good plan. These kind of recommendations are best given in the turn threads, where the scholia head or Sir Ralph can edit them into the first posts. We had lost suggestions before, but this system seems to work

DeepO

	15-02-2003 00:01									#54
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These discussions have a large element of debate (usually in the good sense of the word) to them, and there are three vital keys to effective participation in a debate.

1) Fully understand your own position. For example, if you're afraid we won't be adequately prepared for an attack by immortals, find a specific strategy Vox could use that we could not adequately respond to. The more specific you can get, the more persuasive you are likely to be.

2) Fully understand "the other side's" position. Think of how you would argue the case if you were on the other side, and that will help you figure out where the strengths and weaknesses in your own position are.

3) Don't give up just because "the other side" isn't convinced right away. Keep looking at why the other side isn't being convinced, and try to find whatever it is that they might not be seeing that might convince them if they did see it. (And at the same time, of course, consider the possibility that they might be right.)

Of course there are times when no amount of debate can find THE right answer because which answer is correct is a matter of subjective priorities. Sometimes it comes down to things like how much risk a person is willing to accept for a possible future advantage. But a lot of the time, as the two sides come to understand each other's viewpoints and underlying priorities better, a workable consensus can be found.

Nathan

	15-02-2003 00:12									#55
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quote: Originally posted by DeepO Another point is whether Vox knows our iron source... we told them of our second source, but I'm not sure if Nathan said were it was exactly (don't think so, but can't say for sure)

What I said was along the lines of, "We have another source of iron in a place you haven't seen yet." I wasn't about to paint any bullseyes for them.

Still, the idea that we need to have a decent defense in the area when Vox gets galleys is a good one. We probably ought to plan on a vet spearman in every coastal city by that point since when you see a vet spearman in a city, there's no telling what kind of stack might be hiding under him. We may need to build some more spearmen in Hurricane before putting it on a wonder after all, as much as I dislike the delay.

Edit: Another thought is to post regular warriors as lookouts where we can see Voxian galleys as far in advance as possible. That would let us stretch a smaller response force a little farther.

	15-02-2003 00:24									#56
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Nathan, I think we've got lookouts as close as would be acceptable to Vox: Grog is still looking after our longest coast (also spotting Lux, and other mainland galleys). The warrior on the East is as close as he can get, and will certainly spot a galley if it approaches too. We can't move him up, without at least asking it from Vox...

Maybe we should push for a kind of non-aggression treaty with RPG for the moment, or at least one in which we declare that settling to close to the other party is considered an act of war. If we prohibit settling 5 tiles from an existing city, they won't be able to settle any of our future city sites. Of course, it does mean we would promise the same to them, so maybe we shouldn't jump into the void here...

DeepO

	15-02-2003 00:30									#57
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I guess I should have checked the map before I posted.

	15-02-2003 00:41									#58
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We currently have 3 turns warning for galley's on the east coast, and 5+ on the west side (assuming there are no galley crossings by the west desert). A Spear at each side and 2 more centrally located would be nice. Also I think a few WC's or hooking up our Iron is in order. We need some offensive capacity.

Our Warriors could be used to block the good landing sites in the case we saw someone coming either way.

	15-02-2003 01:28									#59
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

The cost of an invasion by a civ from the mainland is just too great. Galleys aren't such good vessels when it comes to warring - they can only move 3 tiles per turn and end turns in coastal tiles, which means that they have a long route to take, and they travel it considerably slowly. Furthermore, their low cargo hold makes them ineffective for serious invasions.
If a civ from the mainland decides to invade, they will need a large number of galleys to offload many units in the first wave. They can't use a few galleys to send units in small waves because by the time their galleys make the trips back and forth and return with another wave, the previous wave will already have been eliminated. They need to attack with overwhelming force, and for that they need many galleys. In order to send waves of 8 units each, they'll need 4 galleys - a total investment of 120 shields, or 4 swordsmen. Not cheap.
A naval invasion at this point in the game is very inefficient. Launching a wave of 6 swordsmen costs 180 shields, plus 90 for the galleys - a total of 270 shields. To deal effectively with 6 swordsmen, we'd need 8 or so spearmen, which cost 160 shields. The civs on the mainland will realize that we can counter their invasion with 40% less investment in shields and will not attempt this, knowing that such a plan is almost surely bound to fail.

To sum up, with so much trouble in their own continent, I doubt that any civ will risk committing to a naval invasion of our island. If any of them will be foolish enough to actually try this, they will probably stop after the first wave, when they realize that they can't continue supporting such an inefficient war.

	15-02-2003 02:30									#60
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Contingencies?

I don't think that empty cities allows for us to exercise any effective contingencies. We do not even have adequate garrisons should some team do something completely unexpected, and one city with Barracks will be a long time building the Spear for all the cities.

If someone did something unexpected, which is likely, then we would be scrambling to build garrisons, let alone offensive forces. At the very least we should keep production of veteran Spear at the level of the number of settlers. To do this would mean building another Barracks post haste. Tempest would be fine. If our production of Spear begins to outstrip the number of settlers then Tempest could pop out the odd Worker.

In my view, the key to MP is balance. When one goes too hard on either the builder or the war monger, then unfortunate consequences follow all too often. 2 Settler pumps, one Worker farm, and only 1 Barracks is unbalanced IMO.