15-02-2003 05:02									#61
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Hmmm...

From the great vantage point of being over 40, I will stick to the Seven Pillars for the moment.

How will we win? What will break the game open for us?

TO me, the sort of hinge question, FOR NOW, is whether or not we need an Ancient GW. The only one that I now believe could be that valuable is the Pyramids.

Let's hypothesize that we do not try for a GW... all of a sudden, we can do all of the REXing and military build-up that we need.

Second, I do acutely feel the lack of balance. I've lived in fear of Immortals, or for that matter 3-4 Swords landing on mountains, since the beginning of the game.

I've been OK with taking some military risk till now (and thus haven't pushed Spartan Academy issues too much), but I HAVE said from the beginning that we need an approrpriate military stance, including Spearmen on key defensive points, WCs for open ground killzones, and Swords for the tough spots.

It's time to get that force in place.

Lastly, the degree of conservatism in our play. I'd say it's been driven by two things.

Nathan and others successfully pitched for a safe, builder style, partially based on a perception that we were at a terrible risk of tech isolation, and thus we shouldn't get stuck in a war with Vox, and should focus on the GLib... I, for one, no longer think this applies.

Lastly, I guess it's the nature of the beast: we've got a bunch of pretty good players with different styles... and that's just fine, it will in the long run be our strength. Until we get onto a more concrete and long-lasting strategy, however, it has probably been better to take the more conservative course.

But, uhh, hmm...

First, you learn balance. At least that's what Miyagi-san said.

	15-02-2003 06:47									#62
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I would like to see us adopt a mostly WC military buildup. We will be in a republic soon, and that greatly diminishes the problems with an Ancient Era GA. Spearmen would be used to garrison the highest danger cities, those which are built next to mountains, as well as at least 2 centrally located that can respond anywhere in our empire with the warning time we are able to guarantee (requires a good road system). As we will be in a Republic soon, the 'garrison' Spearmen should stay on the mountains and force any potential enemy units onto the flats for our WC to respond to. An army of this nature would advance our security much further and at a lower number of units than relying on upgrading Warriors (after the Iron is hooked up).

We may want to at least leave open the option of actually using our Warriors. If I read correctly, there have been some conversation with Vox about trading their southern cities for mainland cities if we capture them? This may very well be our best bet of expansion while creating a stronger alliance with Vox. If warfare breaks out on the mainland we should at least reserve the ability to participate and not just passively wait for the possibility of a superpower forming outside our borders.

Detailed planning would of course require detailed information (maps). The Lighthouse may be an effective wonder in our situation, and one that a size 11 city in a GA would have a good shot at building even as their second wonder ( )... Galleys travelling by sea are often not visible to landlubber civs, and can scout out coasts and landings. Also (reliable) contact with Lego could very well rely on the extra movement. Bear in mind that if another civ were to build the lighthouse, we would possibly have 0 turn warning of a landing on the east coast unless we build up a navy of our own.

	15-02-2003 06:56									#63
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If the vote is on, i'll strongly push for staying in our course- those of you who say no to consevative play and push for military buildup are actually pushing for a conservative play. As Theseus said- "i lived in fear" this is not a real case, just a gut feeling that we could and should have more units. But i think its the SP experience that influences- the AI is expected, and someone always tries to pick on you, which means you have to keep armed forces and be aggressive . But this is MP, and humans tend to take other considerations, like what they might lose- what is their benefit from an invasion, in their eyes- land? they hardly know what are the island's dimensions. hurting a "ringers" team- why not hit someone who might hit them instead of us, or maybe some team with a big score and peaceful agenda, like lego?

And no for the costs- "galley time"- scouting the shores. Immense shield effort- as Shiber stated. Exposing their borders for would-be attackers from their own continent, especially after the whole world know about it. Having to invade a foreign island against a determined and skilled (and they know we are, that's for sure) team, and manage highly corrupted cities (if they succeed in conquering).

Their other option- investing in an alliance agianst a civ on their mainland. Strengthen their culture. REXing (remember, everyone are still REXing, even we).

After reviewing all this, and even after hearing Aeson's and Theseus' delightful description (which almost made me drool) of the WC's, swordsmen and killzones, and also Theseus and others legitimate fear from Voxian invasion, I still have say this is too early, and the best option would be to keep using our momentum and advantages- the time for military buildup and conquest will come, but not yet. Halting our development now will just be wrong- because balance isn't everything, and this is not SP, so balancing, IMHO, is not as important as gaining a decisive advantage and keeping it, like we try to do.

Also- fearing a tech isloation was IMO far more logical than fearing galley supported invasion, so working to make sure we weren't (tech isolated) has rightly recieved, and still recieves greater attention.

	15-02-2003 07:07									#64
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quote: Originally posted by zeit If the vote is on, i'll strongly push for staying in our course- those of you who say no to consevative play and push for military buildup are actually pushing for a conservative play. As Theseus said- "i lived in fear" this is not a real case, just a gut feeling that we could and should have more units. But i think its the SP experience that influences- the AI is expected, and someone always tries to pick on you, which means you have to keep armed forces and be aggressive. But this is MP, and humans tend to take other considerations...

To the contrary, in SP you may neglect your defences and catch up when and as needed. If the AI comes knocking you can fight defensively with inferior forces and wait for the opportunity to make peace. That opportunity will come.

In MP, if you are unprepared and an opponent comes for you... A: they will be big and nasty or there will be many of them (an alliance), and B: will not be bought off or delayed due to inappropriate use of forces. Humans will come fast and relentlessly if they will come. A civ unprepared for war when the first shot rings out will die before they can arm themselves.

I have had it done to me, and I have done it to others. You are right, it is nothing like playing with AI. It is far more vicious and lethal.

	15-02-2003 07:25									#65
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I agree its more vicious, but i actually think humans can be reasoned with, unlike the AI which works according to a hard set of rules. And i also think that defensive wars against humans are far more difficult- with the AI you take one city at a time- you have he's territory map, and he hasn't heard about the phrase "(defensive/offensive) effort concentration. We should be prepared, but we just can't win if we keep planning for the worst case- have we done it with the FP plagues? no we havn't, and still we got screwed, yet know one says we should stop using them. We all understand the risks of plague, therefor we don't fear it as much as we do fear this vague "invasion threat". I hardly see human opponents go to war as blindly opportunistcly as the AI does, simply becaue the realize the risks and the effort put into it (unlike real world leaders and generals, who might feel detached from the private suffering of the soldiers and citizens), we are simply not good enough targets in their eyes, not yet. By the time we might become more available (to wany potential incaders), we can defend ourselves better, without hampering our early development so badly- as those who call for our immediate buildup of a serious defensive-counter attack capable force.

In regards to navy buildup- i very much for this- for the reasons mentioned and also becuase we have the best chance of finding a habitable island somewhere to the east or NE of our location.

	15-02-2003 07:36									#66
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I'm not sure if I'm making the case clear.

Suppose that LI or RP convince Vox that it would be in their best interests to attack us. They offer to land in the South at the same time as the Immortals come down from the North. Now, just suppose that Vox goes along with this and uses their 4 or 6 cities to build warriors which upgrade to Immortals. They remain under our Mil Advisor strength comparison RADAR until the turn that 6 or 8 or 10 of them upgrade to Immortals in Dissidentville. That turn 4 Galleys show up off the coast near Cyclone and land 6 Horse and 2 Sword... Now, how do we deal with that when we dont even have 1 Spear per city?

The point is that running with minimal military is an all or nothing game. Either we are attacked or not. If we are attacked when unprepared, we will be wiped out. No matter how good we are, we cannot defend cities with our reputations. Most likely around 20% chance of being attacked, maybe only 10. Do we feel lucky?

	15-02-2003 07:52									#67
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Funny how the main purported advantage to peaceful relations with Vox was the ability to focus on economic pursuits. What are we doing with that economy? Planning for war.

Seems to me like we're going to build up a nice military in the next thirty or so turns. Why not take it up a notch and plan to use it on the best target: Vox?

I personally doubt an inter-continental invasion will come knocking on our door anytime soon (would you rush Gathering Storm if you were on the mainland?). But if we're preparing for it nonetheless, I do not want to see our military units idle.

So here's my (conservative) plan: expand, build defenses, use those defenses for offense against Vox when the times is right. Sometimes SP tactics are not so bad.


Dominae

	15-02-2003 07:54									#68
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I just got my first look at the mini-map. If the maps are positioned right, there is a very good chance that we have a Lighthouse crossing to RPG off the western desert. That also means they would have a Lighthouse crossing there too. In fact I think it's definite, and a regular crossing is very likely.

There are 3 tiles from our capitol to the coast due west. On the minimap that shows as 15 pixels. There are 20 pixels from the coast off the western desert to the coast off RPG's capitol, suggesting a 4 water tile span. A galley with the lighthouse, 4 moves from sea to sea, would be able to cross up to about 30 pixels. A galley on it's own can cross up to 4 tile spans.

I am emailing a look at this view.

	15-02-2003 08:00									#69
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I'm willing to bet any team will not seriously consider assaulting our continent alone. If tensions are high on the main continent, they all have more immediate problems to deal with. Consequently, no team will seriously go for the Great Lighthouse, regardless of a viable crossing.

The other possible scenario is if alliances are made amongst the mainland teams, where it could then be possible that they jointly plan for an inter-continental invasion. But this case is unlikely, unless Gathering Storm becomes too powerful too fast.


Dominae

	15-02-2003 08:48									#70
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Aeson, yes, the maps are combined pixel-perfect, I'm sure of that. There are some blurs as some teams sent a compressed jpg or gif though.

Interesting analysis. Do you think there will be either an island, or a larger continent South of Legoland? It seems an awfull empty spot...

DeepO

	15-02-2003 10:05									#71
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I gotta sleep... family obligations at 7am (!) tomorrow.

But this latest discussion has got me ROTFL, especially with Aeson now chiming in.

What a collection of different styles we have...

I'm pretty sure I hold the record for shortest post on 'poly... I forget what, but it was a one-keystroke answer.

Here's my short thought for tonight:

Balance. Explode.

	15-02-2003 11:57									#72
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It's hard to say if there would be a 4th landmass or not given our general lack of knowlege of even our own continent. Lego may have a biggish island to themselves, or there could be some sort of archipelago.

------------------------------

If this crossing to RPG is a galley crossing, it really raises the risk we are in, and opens up a lot of opportunities for us as well. If it is a Lighthouse crossing it may be the game breaker. If we're going to take advantage of an opportunity of this sort, we need to be ready for it before it happens.

It seems that most demogame teams are rather passive, or at least has been the case in any of the demo games I've seen. That doesn't mean we should ignore the possibility that one of them will get agressive and make a play to win this thing, or that we can't be more proactive ourselves.

With our current military state though, we are locked into a passive approach to any possibility that arises. We don't need a lot more units, but an offensive capacity of some sort would be nice. Even if the consensus is to wait for the Middle Ages to start any offensive, we should be building our Knights/Cav now.

	15-02-2003 17:49									#73
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The crossing is not the only sea route from RP to GS. We know that Vox and Lux are bordered by a 1-tile sea. RP can sail along Lux's coast, move to Vox's coast and then reach us. This path is longer, but they get to do some scouting on the way.
What would really convince me to build the Great Lighthouse is if after MM is discovered, we share world maps maps with other teams (particularly ND) and find out that there is a lighthouse-only crossing between the main continent and Lego's landmass. Then I'd support using the wonder prebuild for the Great Lighthouse, and using this wonder to contact Lego.

	15-02-2003 17:53									#74
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Btw, good work on that illustration you sent to the common mailbox.

	15-02-2003 18:59									#75
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Shiber, I don't think anyone is going to support sharing world maps with other teams.... the precise location of our luxuries and reseources, plus the tactical layout of our lands is much too important to give to others. We maybe able to exchange minimaps, but I doubt we'll exchange territory or world maps unless we're forced.

Ligthouse: main problem I see is that if Lego is isolated (and they see it, no need to guess it), they will focus on the lighthouse as well. It seems support for supersizing Hurricane is dropping, but we can be reasonably sure that if we now start on a wonder, and don't pump Hurricane's population, lego will build a wonder before us.

DeepO

	15-02-2003 19:53									#76
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Very well. Sharing up-to-date minimaps will do the trick as well. In order to decide if the lighthouse is required to contact Lego, we only need to know how distant the landmasses are from one another.
As for the possibility that Lego may be building the lighthouse, perhaps we could contact them and arrange that we build the lighthouse in exchange that we contact them, sell them all the techs we have for half the beaker cost, and afterwards sell their contact to every other civ; or some other deal, the details don't matter, as long as they prefer to take it over building the lighthouse themselves.

	15-02-2003 20:22									#77
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I won't completely repeat, what others already wrote, and I think everybody knows my position. I'm not at all against a good economical buildup, and I don't want to go for early military adventures, but to play the way our economists plan is in my opinion wrong. In a nutshell, their position is, let's rely on a minimal defense and our scouts. If we see Immortals or Galleys coming, lets begin a military buildup, connect the iron, suspend the research, upgrade some regular warriors (do they mean our only city defenders or our scouts in the north, who need many time to return), maybe switch a prebuild wonder to a military unit.

A worker needs 6 turns to connect the iron (1 to enter the mountain, 5 to build road), assuming he's close enough and doesn't need to cross a river. In the 7th turn we would be able to upgrade the first warrior. Attacking Immortals have outstanding roads to approach - our mountain ranges. One of them leads directly to our supposed wonder city and our only usable iron source. Wonderful.

Also, opinions like "nobody dares to attack us, we're Gathering Storm!" are not only arrogant, but highly dangerous. On the countrary, I expect us to be attacked because we are Gathering Storm, and most likely by an alliance. True, in the early stage we are now, an attack is not very likely yet. But from the moment on, when the main continent is settled completely, the risk jumps from very low to very high.

Reasons:
- None of the teams wishes us to get very far in the game. All they see us as potential danger. The earlier they wipe us out, the better for them.
- An early war on the main continent could with alliances get very devastating and would undoubtly hurt all involved teams severely. A common attack of our landmass would devastate us (the hated game favorite) and leave their land intact.
- Once the teams are out of the REX phase, they have the time and the resources to build barracks and military. We are blessed with a big landmass, but are ready to sacrifice a lot of our expansion capabilities to an unneeded wonder race. This sets us back yet more.

What we need is balance.
- Economy - yes!
- Expansion - yes!
- Military - yes!
- Wonders - maybe, but only, if we have resources left from the first 3 topics.

One barracks is by far not enough. Let's stop that wonder discussion and let Hurricane build a small, but fine rapid reaction force. At least 3 more veteran warriors. Let the connection of our iron and horses be a priority. Bring up some War Chariots. Give us some veteran Spearmen, to disrupt the way over the mountain ranges and force attackers into kill zones. Let's do this now. No ancient wonder is worth our security.

	15-02-2003 20:27									#78
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I created a map in the editor from what we know of our landmass, and placed RP's capitol. It's hard to be sure of the exact nature of the coastline on their side (impossible more than 2 tiles from their capitol), but it does prove there is a Lighthouse crossing there.

I'm sending this comparison to the mailbox as well. I marked land, coast, and sea tiles as they likely are judging from their mini-map. The tile 6 from their capitol is almost certainly land given the shape of their cultural border in the original mini-map.

---------------------

I didn't mean to imply this was the only crossing, but it cuts off roughly 10-15 turns by boat, much of it through other team's coastal waters (which very likely wouldn't be tolerated), and completely bypasses our early warning system along the west coast. It would do the same for any warning system RP has as well. If a team on one side or another gets the Lighthouse, it could be a very big deal. For all intents and purposes, it increases the size of a possible invasion force by a factor of at least 10. (2 turns required round trip with lighthouse, 20-30 without).

RP certainly has continental concerns as do we, but that makes a suprise of this type even more effective. We could ally with a mainland team against RP if war does break out, or they could ally with Vox against us. The Lighthouse would be the major factor in how valuable such an alliance would be for either team.

	15-02-2003 20:38									#79
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I'd just like to point out that this crossing (unless it turns out to be a galley crossing) isn't something RP could have noticed. They only have our capitol location, which isn't anywhere near our western coast so they have little to no idea where that is. This really favors us.

	15-02-2003 21:15									#80
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Is anyone else concerned about the outside chance that our iron might disappear if we hook it up before we're ready to make any significant use of it? I'll want to keep at least two workers reasonably close to the iron until it's hooked up, but the idea of actually hooking it up this long before we're ready to found a city by our other iron source (and before anyone else in the world has Map Making) makes me very nervous.

Nathan

	15-02-2003 21:15									#81
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quote: Originally posted by Sir Ralph Also, opinions like "nobody dares to attack us, we're Gathering Storm!" are not only arrogant, but highly dangerous.

As I said in another post, other teams will not attack us unless they band together. Would you go all the way across the ocean, alone, leaving your own lands largely undefended, to get a shot at Gathering Storm, who does not appear weak and has WCs at its disposal? Further, would you throw the Great Lighthouse into your plans to ensure this would work, at a great investment wich hurts your early growth?

I'm assuming the answer to these questions, is 'no' based in the facts that 1) the main landmass is somewhat crowded, and 2) tensions are fairly high there. Of course, these two "facts" are second-hand reports, but I'm willing to go along with them for the moment.

Thus all our talk about the Great Lighthouse and adequate defense is based on pure fear for of the worst-case scenario. I belive this scenario is highly unlikely. Sure, Vox could be stockpililng gold for a one-turn Warrior upgrade (which we would be hard-pressed to defend against...no Horses as of yet), but we're willing to bet that will not happen anytime soon. Similarly fear of a big inter-continental attack are based on nothing more than fear at this point.

Now, if we get word the two teams on the mainland are banding together, that changes everything. In that case we would have good reason to believe an invasion to be far more likely. But this will not occur within the next 50 turns, IMO.

If playing conservative is the way we want to go, it is nonetheless not a bad option. But as I mentioned above (or elsewhere) we will have a lot of "useless" military units hanging around if an attack never comes. At that point I suggest we play unconservatively, and strike at Vox.


Dominae

	15-02-2003 21:18									#82
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Aeson, could explain why you're sure there is a Sea crossing in the first place? Your editor shots show a possible scenario, but is it no possible that Ocean does in fact seperate our continents? I'm not so wise in the ways of the map generator myself.


Dominae

	15-02-2003 21:20									#83
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Sir Ralph, I've been sounding the peaceful trumpet since the start of this game, but only as a counterbalance. For one, I've been supporting the our-continent strategy for the beginning: keep Vox happy until we can safely attack them, then take them out in one fast move. I still support that idea... I agree, that we need to build our econ to allow us some disadvantage (also referring to Theseus Pillars), we need a decent military to keep our econ safe, and in some way we need to be able to acquire research at a very decent pace. I fully agree that if we do not want to divert resources to a wonder, Hurricane would make a fine military city.

However, it's the timing that I don't fully agree with. Sure, we are at risk from an invasion, but no other civ as got MM yet. Further, they need to sail towards us, and as both Lux and ND have other things on their mind, the shortest path (apart from the crossing to RP) takes a considerable amount of time. Already, we're military far superiour to Vox, so for the moment they are not to worry about. I think we can both get a wonder up, keep expanding, and have enough spears and WCs ready before we're going to see the first galley on our coast. Certainly if EotS is now building a settler, ready to settle another fast growing barracks city. (Still nothing said about Tempest: the opinions on what to do with it are varying to say the least).

All this to put the finger on what has been buzzing in our forum for a few days now: how are we going to get that game-balance breaking thing. I'm confident we can keep our current position in the world without many problems for at least the next 50 turns or so, if we decide to do that. Indeed, it is very likely that we'll be facing an alliance against ourselves in this game, but at the moment, the other teams are too divided, or too close to us. So either we go for a pure military conquest style, or we try to get some other advantages elsewhere. We know we're very good in expansion, and in commerce relative to the rest of the world, so either rexing as crazy, or going for a research lead would be possible. Or, we transform some of this early growth into larger cities, for which the pyarmids certainly would be worth it. Or, we bend everything to the military side, where we use gold instead of beakers, and our expansion to generate more units then anyone can cope (best to have double the amount of units if we want to have a chance against an alliance). Or, we go for sea-dominance, for which the lighthouse would be welcome as well.

In all these scenarios, I see a lot of potential from wonders, not only because they will help us, but if we take them, the others can't surpass us. Without pyramids, no other team is going to outgrow us, that is simply not possible given our terrain. Without the lighthouse, no team is going to dominate the seas, if we set our mind to it. Etc, etc. If we would play a blend game because we fear invasions so early on (while they are high risk to everyone, both defenders and attackers), I fear we won't be able to pick our specialty, and excell in that.

One minor comment, though: I would have liked to get the horse roaded faster as well, it seems it is going to take another 10 or so turns in the current worker plan, mabe it's just an idea, but I would feel safer with the horsies hooked up.

Aeson:
Thanks for the analysis, in the past day more then a few good ideas have come from you, it really is a pleasure to have you around!
But this doesn't mean I agree with you. RPG is the team which has, so far, been most friendly to us, as well as to most other teams on their continents. They really are a trading nation, and keep good contacts with everyone. As a result, it would be extremely hard for us to attack them, without at least getting some diplomatic retaliations from the others. I've looked in their direction as well (as they are closer to us then Vox is, albeit over the seas) for future territory, but either we are so dominant we can take them out, and fend off a counterattack from GoW and Lux or ND, or we shouldn't start on it.

What's more, they seem to be one of the best researchers in the game, and could help us a lot better then Vox to get into the middle ages fast, leaving other teams behind. If we want to go for a tech-lead, RP is the team that can get it with us. Legoland are of course another possibility, but they are too isolated, so probably are not up to speed as compared with the rest of the teams.

Of course, the isolation and neutrality of RP has two sides, we can either leave them alone, seek a partnership with them and let them grow (counting on our growth to surpass theirs), or we can start to annoy them while they are still building up their defense. I would strongly favor to keep them as friends for a while, as long as our relation is friendly, RP will not be easily lured into an alliance against us. That doesn't mean we shouldn't plan for it, but given the grudge they hold against Lux, I think Lux has to go before RP will turn its attention towards us.
And even then, they are traders, not warmongers. If they get into a war, it is very likely that GoW will join on their side, doing most of the work for them.

So, as a diplomat and ambassador to RP, I'm inclined to not look aggresively into their direction to much, both not for defensive reasons, as for offensive reasons. While the lighthouse enabled crossing to their lands will be a powerful thing in both cases, I'm not sure they see it the same way... which of course makes it more viable as a surprise tactic from our side.

DeepO

	15-02-2003 21:30									#84
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Damn, serious cross posting again... I need to type faster, or maybe less text

Nathan: I was thinking on keeping the iron unconnected for a while just to be able to produce some vet warriors, but this was really all I needed it unconnected for. Apart from that, connecting it early might be best, the risk of losing it is not that great, and even if it's not settled yet, we have a second source promised to us which can be connected in 20 turns or so. Not connecting it purely out of fear of losing it when we need it seems strange, as we'll need a couple of turns to connect it anyway, so if we need it urgently, we need it in the same turn, not in 3 turns time.

Dom,
True, we shouldn't simply look at defense when wanting to build the lighouse. But it has other advantages as well, like possibly being able to reach lego, increased speed for all our invasions, etc. It is most likely that before the lighthouse wears out, we have either attacked Vox, or someone on another continent, so it won't be lost. The possible protection against RP is but a smaller advantage, not something why we would need to build the GL.

DeepO

	15-02-2003 21:36									#85
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How about we get a couple of Galleys in the water before deciding on the Great Lighthouse?

Gosh, I love prebuilds!


Dominae

	15-02-2003 21:39									#86
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(Replying to Aeson's posts)
Good points all around, but I still think that by the time we'd want to attack the mainland, safe traversal of sea tiles will already be made possible. Whether it is worth the investment to build the lighthouse just to deprive the other civs of it is another question.
As for using the lighthouse to be the first to contact Lego, I'm not entirely sure that this would work. Lego is much closer to the other civs than us. If one of those civs decides to take a calculated risk, they could send a suicide galley on its way to Lego's estimated location. Even if three galleys sink on the way and only the fourth one makes it, it's still a good investment, and cheaper than building the lighthouse.

Btw, the 1 pixel variation between the two minimaps could be a result of a simple error by DeepO, who combined the minimaps. If you wish, I could send the separate minimaps that we received from each team to your private mailbox and you could check that out.

	15-02-2003 21:45									#87
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Don't forget that there is always the possibility of using GOW as our defense.

	15-02-2003 21:46									#88
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quote: Originally posted by Dominae Aeson, could explain why you're sure there is a Sea crossing in the first place?

It doesn't really matter. If there are in fact a few tiles of ocean in the crossing, we can hop over them (galleys can move through ocean tiles too). With the Great Lighthouse, what matters is the distance between our sea and RP's sea, not whether there are also ocean tiles in between.

Not that I'm pro-lighthouse of course.

	15-02-2003 21:51									#89
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Ah yes, of course, Shiber. I've been playing the AU mod too much...


Dominae

	15-02-2003 22:10									#90
	Support Apolyton

I am in favor of not connecting our Iron as of yet, and focusing mostly on WC production as our offensive capacity. Spearmen can force Immortals out of the mountains better than Swordsmen can (cheaper and have a 4.5 defense when fortified). They are also more effecient on Hills than Immortals are (20 shields for 3.5 defense vs 30 shields for 4 offense). On flats, the retreat plus lower cost of WC's make them more efficient than the Immortals. We need a good road system and well placed Spearmen to guarantee ourselves the initiative though.

I think the Pyramids + Lighthouse could both be available if we wish to pursue it. I very highly doubt RP would go for the Pyramids, as both the GL and Lighthouse are more important to them as far as making contact and catching up to speed. The Lighthouse is a big of a gamble for them if they can't see any other shore. If they can see the other shore (or the coast thereof) then it's a regular galley crossing and the Lighthouse becomes much less desireable. The exception is if the trading of mini-maps has given them proof of a Lighthouse only crossing. Without that, they may have to rely on suicide galleys to make contact even with the Lighthouse.

Once the GA starts from the Pyramids build, Hurricane at size 11 should be able to produce 25 shields a turn after corruption (more if we mine the Iron) which would mean the Lighthouse would take 12 turns or less to build.

quote: Aeson, could explain why you're sure there is a Sea crossing in the first place?

Because of the mini-maps, we know where land is for sure (RP's capitol). Given the map generator's need to line land with coast, and coast with sea, that means we are almost certainly dealing with a crossing of no more than CSOOSC. A regular galley can safely cross CSSC but no more. A Lighthouse aided Galley can start and end on Sea, so their maximum crossing is CSOOOSC. This scenario is almost surely more narrow than that. Very likely at it's narrowest it is CSOSC, which puts it outside a regular Galley's range, but well within the range of a Lighthouse aided one. Until we move those Warriors out to check the beach, we can't rule out that the crossing is more narrow than that though.