15-02-2003 22:23									#91
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I'd like to keep our options open, and the Lighthouse + this crossing would really help in that regard. It's our fastest route to the mainland and fastest route to Lego.

We don't know when the big break is going to show itself. If we've isolated ourselves up to a given time and the break comes before that, someone on the mainland is likely to take the game in hand. With our (likely) 4 Iron sources on this continent, a team or teams on the mainland aren't going to have Knights/Pikes unless we let them. This could make the early Middle ages very important. Another possibility is that Lego won't have Iron, in which case they could become a very juicy target.

Of course we can always trade away the Iron and even things out between the teams, but that's also negating our advantage as well.

	15-02-2003 22:37									#92
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quote: Originally posted by nbarclay Is anyone else concerned about the outside chance that our iron might disappear if we hook it up before we're ready to make any significant use of it? I'll want to keep at least two workers reasonably close to the iron until it's hooked up, but the idea of actually hooking it up this long before we're ready to found a city by our other iron source (and before anyone else in the world has Map Making) makes me very nervous.

Weren't depleting resources just jumping to another place on the same landmass (not entirely sure)? In this case we'd have not very much to worry, as we have the most hills and mountains on our continent. What about a compromise, we build a couple of veteran Warriors, as I suggested, don't connect the iron yet, but keep at least 2 workers nearby to hook it up within 4 turns (1 move, 3 road), as you suggested.

	15-02-2003 23:14									#93
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One move, three road only works if the workers are just sitting there twiddling their thumbs. Realistically, we're looking at 2-3 turns for each worker to get to the iron, and thus 5-6 turns total to get the iron connected. That means we'd lose Tempest if Vox attacks and follows a route where they see it (which they most likely would) and goes after it as the closest target (and thinking it may be our iron source). On the other hand, trying to defend Tempest against an early Voxian attack under even the best of circumstances would be problematical, since there are two different mountains Vox can strike from. And if we lose our iron supply and Vox attacks before we get another one hooked up, we could lose a whole lot more than just Tempest.

Edit: I'd have to go back and doublecheck the record of Vox's explorations to be sure, but Vox probably already sees at least a sliver of Tempest's border, since (if I understnad correctly) borders show up on tiles on the first tier outside a city's radius.

Nathan

	15-02-2003 23:24									#94
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First of all, I'm absolutely 100% certain that my combination of RP's and our minimap is pixel perfect, for those interested, I can send the photopaint file so that you can check yourself (quite easy, all maps are layers, and by moving one it becomes instantly clear that the borders of the minimap get too thick in one direction).
It could be that RP rigged their minimap before sending it to us, but that would be a serious violation of trust, I doubt they did it.

If it makes it easier, I can redo the map with our latest minimap, so it shows the position of our 5 cities, and not just 2.

Aeson, some time ago, RP wanted to struck a deal with us, in which they were not going to build one wonder, if we were not going to build another. They proposed Collosus and lighthouse to us, as they were only interested at that time in the GL and the pyramids (IIRC). If we would have agreed, it was not permitted to us to start on the GL, even if e.g. a pyramid prebuild failed because Lux built it. We did not accept it, but it does show some of the choices RP is making...

Sir Ralph: I've got but one problem with that plan: if we want an ancient wonder of our liking, we would be best to start on it without further delay. Otherwise all plans might fail as we just have to go with what the rest leaves us...

It's by the way encouraging to see Aeson talk about size 11 Hurricane cities, at least there is one supporter to pump Hurricane's size

DeepO

	15-02-2003 23:46									#95
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I don't interpret Aeson's support as necessarily being for doing it right now while we're still REXing, though.

	15-02-2003 23:50									#96
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We have 3 turns warning of a sea invasion on the east. If we see a galley coming, we should be able to get Warriors on the mountains to deny them landing there (workers on the Iron would deny a landing too). WC's would be the best protection then.

	15-02-2003 23:52									#97
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Bah, that was not why I was happy for a moment, lately it seems I've been the only one who saw the possible advantages of supersizing Hurricane. It's good that at least one other member keeps the same idea in mind, which is a whole other thing that actively supporting it.

Really, even if I can understand building another settler from EotS, I don't think it would be wise to keep it at maximum settler pumping mode after that. I really would like it if it would build some 10 workers after that, so that we both can supersize Hurricane, and don't get into problems with workers in the rest of our country. Cyclone is going to make a nice settler pump, and as long as we don't have an idea where to build our 16th city, that will be enough... (IMHO)

DeepO

	15-02-2003 23:57									#98
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If we do pump Hurricane up with Workers, I think we should build 1 Settler from there before starting the wonder. EotC is better suited for building Workers, and so the pop lost in Hurricane could be replaced more efficiently than the Settler could be built in EotC.

quote: Aeson, some time ago, RP wanted to struck a deal with us, in which they were not going to build one wonder, if we were not going to build another. They proposed Collosus and lighthouse to us, as they were only interested at that time in the GL and the pyramids (IIRC). If we would have agreed, it was not permitted to us to start on the GL, even if e.g. a pyramid prebuild failed because Lux built it. We did not accept it, but it does show some of the choices RP is making...

Am I reading this right? Their desired wonder was the GL in that scenario?

	15-02-2003 23:59									#99
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Let me check if I can find the quote. But yes, RPG was more interested in the GL (library that is)

DeepO

	16-02-2003 00:04									#100
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from http://apolyton.com/forums/showthre...458#post1609458

quote: Wonder Agreements. You build a wonder, and we build another. Even if we don't get our wonder and have to waste the shields, we will not switch to your wonder. You do the same. - Wonders we are potentially interested in are pyramids & Great Library. - Wonders we are not interested in are Colossus & Lighthouse. - The great wall, hanging gardens and oracle we are debating on.

This was said little over a month ago, the situation can have changed a great deal for them.

	16-02-2003 00:07									#101
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quote: Originally posted by Sir Ralph Weren't depleting resources just jumping to another place on the same landmass (not entirely sure)?

They can go anywhere in the world. I had a game saved once when my Ironless landmass was suddenly gifted with an Iron right beside one of my cities. That happened once with oil too, a looong time ago. I have also lost Iron and not been able to see where the replacement appeared even though I had the map of my entire continent.

	16-02-2003 00:09									#102
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I think some potential build ques would come in handy to show us how long it is going to take us to reach our 15 cities.

As luck would have it, I have 2 days off starting tomorrow...

	16-02-2003 00:14									#103
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nye, testing this out would certainly be welcome... if possible, try it once with Hurricane set aside for a wonder, and once with an abundance of workers... precise experiments are difficult, though.

DeepO

	16-02-2003 00:26									#104
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quote: Originally posted by Aeson If we do pump Hurricane up with Workers, I think we should build 1 Settler from there before starting the wonder. EotC is better suited for building Workers, and so the pop lost in Hurricane could be replaced more efficiently than the Settler could be built in EotC.

That would cost us 30 shields' head start toward our wonder in exchange for a savings of only half a point of population compared with building a settler in EotS. I don't regard that as a worthwhile return on our investment when we have one good settler/worker pump already and another on the way.

	16-02-2003 01:11									#105
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quote: Originally posted by Aeson I would like to see us adopt a mostly WC military buildup. We will be in a republic soon, and that greatly diminishes the problems with an Ancient Era GA. Spearmen would be used to garrison the highest danger cities, those which are built next to mountains, as well as at least 2 centrally located that can respond anywhere in our empire with the warning time we are able to guarantee (requires a good road system). As we will be in a Republic soon, the 'garrison' Spearmen should stay on the mountains and force any potential enemy units onto the flats for our WC to respond to. An army of this nature would advance our security much further and at a lower number of units than relying on upgrading Warriors (after the Iron is hooked up).

We will need Swords to take on Vox... to take out any (hopefully damaged) Immortals on mountains, and to cross the jungle [edit: Well, not if we wait for Horsemen... but I'd still want to go at Vox with combined arms, considering the terrain].

	16-02-2003 01:32									#106
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That's why I said mostly. Currently we have 9 Warriors which can be upgraded, and 0 WC's. Not very combined arms as it is.

	16-02-2003 01:59									#107
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Fair enough.

I'll take this discussion where it belongs... the Spartan Academy.

	16-02-2003 02:04									#108
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Great! It would be great to see some action in the Spartan Academy again, I think that the seats of the main oratorium were collecting dust for too long

DeepO