16-02-2003 03:09									#181
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quote: Originally posted by MOBIUS I think you fail to understand the magnitude of the crowds...

1 or 1,000,000,000, are you honestly naive enough to think Bush cares either way?

	16-02-2003 03:11									#182
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quote: Originally posted by Frogger How many voted for the CA motion on Iraq on the same day, sweetheart?

Why would they ruin the opportunity they have to act like they're independent of the US? They don't need to commit support until it actually happens.

	16-02-2003 03:11									#183
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc Is that even possible? I heard he was even more unintelligible in French than he is in English.

Half of his incoherence is an act. Half is just him.

Right now he's more incoherent than he's ever been before.

	16-02-2003 03:16									#184
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quote: Originally posted by Asher Why would they ruin the opportunity they have to act like they're independent of the US? They don't need to commit support until it actually happens.

Your thoughts on this are ridiculous.

The Libs are a slightly left-of-centre party (slightly). Canadians as a whole are pretty much against war (see any poll, see the street demos today). The only Canadians who aren't dead-set against it are in Alberta. The Liberal party has one (?) MP from Alberta and almost no prospects of picking up any more. The Canadians most against war with Iraq are Quebecers. The Liberal party has 35 or so MPs from Quebec, and the possibility of getting 10 or 15 more if they play their cards right.

Which direction do you think the Libs would rather get drawn in?

	16-02-2003 03:18									#185
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I was not among the demonstrators, as I would hate to be mistaken for a commie, but I am still against the war. The numbers are interesting: The number of soldiers to win the f*cking war are max 250 000 while the demo people exceeds 10 millions. Interesting comparison.

I am not among any of the numbers.

	16-02-2003 03:18									#186
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I thought recent polls showed a majority of Albertans were against the war as well?

Not that any of that matters.

What was support for the Gulf War like?

	16-02-2003 03:19									#187
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Who was in charge during Gulf War I in Canada?

What happened to his party at the next election?

What was world support for Gulf War I like compared to now?

	16-02-2003 03:22									#188
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I think you should give Saddam the chance to resign. If he does, he should get a free ride with the space shuttle... Isn't that a good idea?

	16-02-2003 03:22									#189
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quote: Who was in charge during Gulf War I in Canada?

And who is in charge during Gulf War II in Canada? A lame duck Prime Minister who has already told us the specific date he'll resign. He doesn't give a rats ass about reelection or his party's future, if he did he wouldn't have signed Kyoto.

quote: What was world support for Gulf War I like compared to now?

Wasn't it about the same, if not less? I know American support for Gulf Wr I is far less than what it is now.

	16-02-2003 03:23									#190
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quote: Originally posted by Olaf Hårfagre I think you should give Saddam the chance to resign. If he does, he should get a free ride with the space shuttle... Isn't that a good idea?

Brilliant -- because we all know he can't resign any damn time he wants to!

	16-02-2003 03:25									#191
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Why now? What did Saddam do the latest months to get him punished for things he did 15 years ago? Not that I like him but my question make a lot of sense.

	16-02-2003 03:25									#192
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One word....distraction.

	16-02-2003 03:27									#193
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Wold support was a lot higher. The Americans had the French with them and a much stronger UN resolution to back them up.

Your point about JC resigning after this term isn't in your favour, Asher. Remember that he's played the middle while hoping for the left for the last 10 years.

He gives a damn for the party's future or else he'd have told the US to go suck it. Kyoto just isn't as big an issue as Albertans think it is. And what Alberta thinks doesn't matter to the Liberals because nobody in Alberta will vote Liberal until the Liberal party is headed by George W. Bush.

Ontario doesn't give a damn about Kyoto, Quebec thinks it's a good idea, BC is full of hippies and nobody else counts.

	16-02-2003 03:30									#194
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In Gulf war one I remember lots of "peace" protests lead by leftist types. They didn't even think we should intervine when Iraq invaded Kuwait. As far as they were concerned the military should be disbanded and if we just showed our love for people like Saddam then they would be converted to socialism and give up their evil ways.

The point is the protesters settled down after a few U.N. resolutions and when the war became a total route for the Iraqis. If Bush is smart enough to wiggle another U.N. resolution through then the vast majority of protesters will probably shut up just like they did last time.

	16-02-2003 03:34									#195
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quote: Originally posted by Asher 1 or 1,000,000,000, are you honestly naive enough to think Bush cares either way?

Are you honestly naive enough to think that I'm naive enough to think Bush cares either way?

Did I say that? No.

So stop being so childish...

Bush may not...

But you forget that Blair is a public opinion ratings whore, so it might rattle him. Same with Berlusconi...

Nations such as France and Germany will feel vindicated that the largest crowds on the day appeared in pro war countries (UK, Italy, Spain) and will become even more entrenched - at this rate the weapons inspectors will have to uncover a 100 megaton nuke aimed at Bush's Texas ranch to change their minds now...

	16-02-2003 03:34									#196
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In many big European and American cities the cold was freezing and in some there was snow. The only place I've heard the weather was actually good was Athens. Here it was a wonderful day, while 2 days ago, we had a blizzard and the whole country was covered in snow.

Attendance in demonstrations is not linearly dependent on the numbe rof people that support their cause. There is a limit to the number of people who would demonstrate for anything, ever. There are family people who can't leave their kids alone and that in Athens matters alot, since the police showed zero tolerance and drowned us in teargas. Family people cannot participate under such conditions. There is the hardship factor, which depends on the weather and the expected walking distance, which is bigger as the demo gets bigger (due to the cessation of all transportation but the metro).

	16-02-2003 03:35									#197
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin If Bush is smart enough to wiggle another U.N. resolution through then the vast majority of protesters will probably shut up just like they did last time.

They would, but the chances of a resolution in the timeframe Bush wants is remote.

	16-02-2003 03:35									#198
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Oerdin, the level of support for action during gulf war I was about the same or lower than it is now in the US.

The level of support was a hell of a lot higher through the rest of the world (Europe and the Arabs most notably). We know the US doesn't really care about the rest of the world, but Canada has a long history of wanting multilateralism. That's actually one of the 3 pillars of our current foreign policy.

So when Europe says no to war, a lot of Canadians pay attention, and so does our government. When the two sides disagree, as they do now, the Canadian position is usually to try to stay out of it.

	16-02-2003 03:37									#199
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin In Gulf war one I remember lots of "peace" protests lead by leftist types. They didn't even think we should intervine when Iraq invaded Kuwait. As far as they were concerned the military should be disbanded and if we just showed our love for people like Saddam then they would be converted to socialism and give up their evil ways.

They wanted a peaceful solution. It is reasonably well documented that Iraq was prepared to withdraw from Kuwait with minor (i.e. face saving and no more) concessions. Bush Sr. for some reason refused. 12 years later and look at the mess now.

This time is different - Saddam hasn't violated the UN Charter by invading one of his neighbours and GWB has made noises to the effect that this is just the first war before the other members of the "Axis of Evil" are attacked. Thats why the North Koreans are so jumpy.

If Bush came out to the American public and said, "look I want to wage a series of agressive pre-emptive wars against countries which are a geostrategic impediment to US hegemony", how many people, excluding the right wing loons that post to this site, would find that an appealing prospect? Yet that is what he is doing if I read him right.

	16-02-2003 03:39									#200
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon ...and for those that think its a "p*ss in a pot" as someone said, I'd remind you that the actual protests are usually just the tip of the iceberg.

Quick straw poll...

How many anti-war people here actually went to a march?

I didn't, it was cold outside and there was ManU Vs Arsenal FA footy and the start of the six nations today...

	16-02-2003 03:39									#201
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I'm sorry I'll have to be a little more clear in connecting the dots for you, apparently I can't leave that job for you.

quote: Originally posted by MOBIUS Are you honestly naive enough to think that I'm naive enough to think Bush cares either way? Did I say that? No. So stop being so childish... Bush may not... But you forget that Blair is a public opinion ratings whore, so it might rattle him. Same with Berlusconi... Nations such as France and Germany will feel vindicated that the largest crowds on the day appeared in pro war countries (UK, Italy, Spain) and will become even more entrenched - at this rate the weapons inspectors will have to uncover a 100 megaton nuke aimed at Bush's Texas ranch to change their minds now...

Okay, and do you think Bush cares if France cares? If Germany cares? Hell, if BRITAIN cares?

He's lobbying for international support because it makes his job easier. He's a Texan and he wants to topple Saddam, whether someone in a beret or with a bratwurst says no won't phase him.

It's a bit of a reality check to realize you and your countries can't do a damn thing about it, but perhaps it's time you realized it and stopped wasting your time?

	16-02-2003 03:43									#202
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quote: Originally posted by MOBIUS Quick straw poll... How many anti-war people here actually went to a march? I didn't, it was cold outside and there was ManU Vs Arsenal FA footy and the start of the six nations today...

You have no excuse; you live in Britain.

I didn't go because it was actual Canadian cold outside and I didn't want to lose any fingers to frostbite.

	16-02-2003 03:51									#203
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc Speak of the devil and the devil comes.

Looking at your avatar, I´ll let that pass as a compliment... this time.

	16-02-2003 03:56									#204
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I am against the f*cking war.

	16-02-2003 04:02									#205
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quote: Originally posted by Asher I'm sorry I'll have to be a little more clear in connecting the dots for you, apparently I can't leave that job for you. Okay, and do you think Bush cares if France cares? If Germany cares? Hell, if BRITAIN cares?

Well D'OH! I've NEVER have guessed that all on my own! THANK you for ENLIGHTENING me...

That's why the world is against him because we all know that this is not a war of last resort - but on of first resort! (He says stating the obvious, you albertan you!)

[Say Frogger? Is 'albertan' canadian for 'stupid'?]

quote: He's lobbying for international support because it makes his job easier. He's a Texan and he wants to topple Saddam, whether someone in a beret or with a bratwurst says no won't phase him.

No. Because Blair told him to, to maintain a veneer that he actually cares. Every time he holds back, it's because Blair has told him to...

quote: It's a bit of a reality check to realize you and your countries can't do a damn thing about it, but perhaps it's time you realized it and stopped wasting your time?

Maybe we can't, but it could serve as the eventual death knell of the US if the whole world then decided to turn its back on america. The US is not too big for the world you know...

quote: Originally posted by FroggerYou have no excuse; you live in Britain. I didn't go because it was actual Canadian cold outside and I didn't want to lose any fingers to frostbite.

They reckoned it was -4c here - that is cold enough for standing around for over four hours, especially when it was only the other week that I was used to 30c+ temps!

Actually I am amazed that so many people were marching given what an important sporting day it was here!

	16-02-2003 04:04									#206
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-4 c

	16-02-2003 04:04									#207
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It was -20 or so here.

	16-02-2003 04:07									#208
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quote: Originally posted by MOBIUS Well D'OH! I've NEVER have guessed that all on my own! THANK you for ENLIGHTENING me... That's why the world is against him because we all know that this is not a war of last resort - but on of first resort! (He says stating the obvious, you albertan you!) [Say Frogger? Is 'albertan' canadian for 'stupid'?]

So basically, you realize that he doesn't care, and yet you let him know anyway? Do you realize how stupid that is?

quote: No. Because Blair told him to, to maintain a veneer that he actually cares. Every time he holds back, it's because Blair has told him to...

Yeah, that's the ticket. Blair is calling the shots, Bush is his puppet.

Mobius, Britain lost its status as a relevant power many years ago. It's the US' b*tch these days, much like most other western nations, whether they politely protest or refuse to send troops or not. No one will stop them.

quote: Maybe we can't, but it could serve as the eventual death knell of the US if the whole world then decided to turn its back on america. The US is not too big for the world you know...

The US is the centerpiece for the modern world, chances are the rest of the world would be hurt more by the world turning its back on the US.

quote: They reckoned it was -4c here - that is cold enough for standing around for over four hours, especially when it was only the other week that I was used to 30c+ temps!

-4C is not cold...

	16-02-2003 04:07									#209
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quote: Originally posted by Frogger -4 c

Hey! I was in Toronto almost exactly a year ago and dealt with that in my stride - it's just living all this time in a warm climate has weakened my natural british resistant to bad weather...

	16-02-2003 04:07									#210
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I went to the rally in London today and they must have been easily 1.25m there if not more, one heck of an atmosphere and hopefully something for Tony Blair to note. Interesting speakers included Rev. Jesse Jackson, Charles Kennedy ( leader of the Lib Dems ), Tim Robbins, etc..

I nipped down the pub to watch England smack down the French at 4pm

quote: Originally posted by Asher Okay, and do you think Bush cares if France cares? If Germany cares? Hell, if BRITAIN cares? He's lobbying for international support because it makes his job easier. He's a Texan and he wants to topple Saddam, whether someone in a beret or with a bratwurst says no won't phase him. It's a bit of a reality check to realize you and your countries can't do a damn thing about it, but perhaps it's time you realized it and stopped wasting your time?

Depressing isn't it that Bush will potentially just ignore every other country in the world and go it alone. I think I preferred it when the US was isolationist, at least then we didn't have to deal with their moral crusade and "we'll do it 'cos the rest of you are too chickensh*t" crap...