16-02-2003 01:34									#151
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With the level of our peacekeeping and NATO commitments, BTW, any further offensive activity is very difficult for Canada to sustain. Which is why the announcement of 2000 men or so going back to Afghanistan for 12 months makes it almost impossible for us to send anything to Iraq.

Sort of clever, that.

He can point to Afghanistan and tell the US he's helping in the war on terror while not having to actually make a decision on Iraq. If he went he'd piss off most of the country. If he said he wasn't going he'd piss off the US.

p.s.: all bets are off if the US was somehow to mirculously get an explicit authorisation of force from the UNSC. In that case there's less of a downside at home and more of a downside with not sending troops...

	16-02-2003 01:51									#152
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quote: Originally posted by Frogger p.s.: all bets are off if the US was somehow to mirculously get an explicit authorisation of force from the UNSC. In that case there's less of a downside at home and more of a downside with not sending troops...

The upside is that Canadian troops won't be killed by US friendly fire in Iraq.

	16-02-2003 01:53									#153
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We still have troops in Afghanistan, IIRC. We should be able to get a few more rounds of target practice in.

	16-02-2003 01:54									#154
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There is still the Air Force, Frogger. That is all we really committed to Gulf War 1. Also, the Navy is already there. Doesn't take too long for them to assist operations in a limited fashion.

	16-02-2003 01:55									#155
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc We still have troops in Afghanistan, IIRC. We should be able to get a few more rounds of target practice in.

Plenty of weddings to bomb, I'm sure.

	16-02-2003 01:59									#156
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quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten I can't wait until the war has been successfully won and all the dumbass protestors have to look back and think about all the time and energy they wasted defending a brutal tyrant...

We aren't defending Saddam, we are defending the Iraqi people.

Blowing the country up and killing tens of thousands of people to install a new dictatorship isn't going to make their lives any better - just a whole hell of alot worse.

	16-02-2003 02:01									#157
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither There is still the Air Force, Frogger. That is all we really committed to Gulf War 1. Also, the Navy is already there. Doesn't take too long for them to assist operations in a limited fashion.

The Navy will probably be engaged in a support role, doing what it's already doing (stopping and searching suspect vessels around the Horn of Africa and in the Gulf proper)

The Air Force would have a hard time putting a squadron together to go to Iraq right now.

AFAIK there's a whole bunch of maintenance issues currently...

	16-02-2003 02:03									#158
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quote: Originally posted by Big Crunch The upside is that Canadian troops won't be killed by US friendly fire in Iraq.

If they're in Afghanistan anyways then the same risks apply.

It doesn't really seem to matter if there's any enemies nearby or not...

	16-02-2003 02:04									#159
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i.e. what DD said

	16-02-2003 02:16									#160
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This thread has gone totally off-topic. This is a thread for peace protestors. Warmongers go away!

The demo in Athens was HUGE, by far the biggest one in town, since the 17N demos in the 70's. I didn't see it begin nor did I see it end, since it was larger than the total length of it's course, on a six lane boulevard. I've heard estimates of 200.000 from the media and various demonstrators, but nobody is certain for the size, since there are no standards to compare. In Thessaloniki the demo had more than 40.000 (50.000-70.000 as per some estimates) people.

The worst thing about the demo was the attitude of the police. In the beginning of the demo, anarchists burned a bank and some cars and the police started gassing the huge crouds gathered nearby. Towards the end othe demo, anarchists attacked the police outside the US embassy, but they, instead of going after the anarchists, strated MASSIVE gassing of the huge crowd, aiming to make them regret joining the demo.

Some estimates about the demos globally:
Melbourne: 200.000
Rome: 2.000.000
Raris: 350.000
Berlin: 350.000-500.000
Lndon: 1.000.000-2.000.000
New York 500.000
Barcelona: 1.300.000-1.500.000
Madrid: 1.000.000
Brussels: 100.000
Oslo: 60.000

more to come

	16-02-2003 02:17									#161
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Montreal and Toronto were relatively small demos apparently.

I didn't go for the same reason a lot of people didn't: it's cold as **** right now.

	16-02-2003 02:21									#162
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quote: Originally posted by Frogger Montreal and Toronto were relatively small demos apparently. I didn't go for the same reason a lot of people didn't: it's cold as **** right now.

The number was 40,000 (I think) at the start of the Toronto march, but it droped down alot as they got to the rally and everyone started crowding inside coffee shops.

I left at the end of the march aswell, I was starting to freeze.

	16-02-2003 02:22									#163
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Axi: Are those official estimates or organizer estimates?

	16-02-2003 02:24									#164
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quote: Originally posted by axi Some estimates about the demos globally: Melbourne: 200.000 Rome: 2.000.000 Raris: 350.000 Berlin: 350.000-500.000 Lndon: 1.000.000-2.000.000 New York 500.000 Barcelona: 1.300.000-1.500.000 Madrid: 1.000.000 Brussels: 100.000 Oslo: 60.000 more to come

The 2,000,000 for London is the organisers estimate. Police sources say it was at least 750,000. A million is probably not far off the mark.

I was sorely tempted to go along, just to see the crowds.

	16-02-2003 02:26									#165
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Well, the police estimate for London was 750 000 according to CNN and the organiser estimate was 2 million. Axi gave as 1-2 million, which isn't terribly far off of those two figures...

	16-02-2003 02:37									#166
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quote: Originally posted by Big Crunch I was sorely tempted to go along, just to see the crowds.

I suspect that was the motivation for many.

The tourists in Greece probably thought it was a conga line and all joined in.

	16-02-2003 02:45									#167
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About 5000 of us rallied & walked in Winnipeg. I suspect if it wasn't -15C with a wind chill there would have been more.

I hope that all Americans see that they are contibuting significantly to world unity - everyone is getting tired of their sabre rattling !!!

	16-02-2003 02:45									#168
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quote: Originally posted by Frogger What have you been smoking? Plus, the old codger just deliberately hamstrung the military by announcing he'd be sending a battle group to Afghanistan for a year. He's not saying anything to avoid annoying the Bushies.

http://www.globeandmail.com/servlet...ine_temp/3/3/8/

	16-02-2003 02:46									#169
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? That's from a month ago.

	16-02-2003 02:48									#170
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Since then Chrétien has said several times both that he won't go without the UN or that he might go without the UN.

I defy you to find a definitive quote either way.

And since then, the PM has muzzled our defense minister when he ran his mouth off, and not muzzled bill graham when he's run his mouth off about not going to war without the UN

	16-02-2003 02:53									#171
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quote: Originally posted by Frogger I defy you to find a definitive quote either way.

His genius is that he seems to be unintelligible which is a definate plus if you want to keep your options open.

	16-02-2003 02:54									#172
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Exactly.

And even more of an asset when the US acts like a whiny ***** about anybody who disagrees with them.

	16-02-2003 02:54									#173
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quote: Originally posted by Frogger Since then Chrétien has said several times both that he won't go without the UN or that he might go without the UN.

He made a slipup, that's obviously the direction he's going in.

He's just buying time trying to be Canadian by being anti-American. It's an old trick that Canadians as a whole have used since the beginning of time...

	16-02-2003 03:00									#174
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Hah. On that one you're sadly mistaken. If he wanted to score points by being antiamerican he would have to say something understandable about the situation.

His deliberate silence is an obvious avoidance of the negative consequences of saying no to the US right now.

And the fact that 4 Liberal MPs voted for the BQ/NDP motion to outlaw war with Iraq without UN backing might tell you something about which way the party is pressuring him to go.

	16-02-2003 03:03									#175
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quote: And the fact that 4 Liberal MPs voted for the BQ/NDP motion to outlaw war with Iraq without UN backing might tell you something about which way the party is pressuring him to go.

Only four? This definitely tells me which way the party is going, and it's going to be right into Iraq.

	16-02-2003 03:05									#176
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quote: Originally posted by Frogger Hah. On that one you're sadly mistaken. If he wanted to score points by being antiamerican he would have to say something understandable about the situation.

Is that even possible? I heard he was even more unintelligible in French than he is in English.

	16-02-2003 03:09									#177
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The numbers are the most probable estimates, picked from police, organisers and media. In ROme the number fro mthe organisers is 3 million, the 2 million are from the police. The NYC number is organiser estimated, based in the number of blocks covered (59) and a standard police estimate of at least 7.000 people per block.

More numbers:
Newcastle: 18.000-20.000 (police)
Cape Town: 5.000
Johannesburg: 10.000
Durban: 3.000
Trondheim 11 000
Amsterdam: 65.000-80.000
Gotheburg: 25.000-30.000 (police)
Stockholm: 22.000-25.000 (police)
Malmoe: 5.000
Bern: 30.000
Warsaw: 10.000
Vienna: 20.000-30.000
Zagreb: 10.000
Helsinki: 15.000
Turku: 5.000
Budapest: 20.000-50.000
Canberra 16,000
Hobart 15,000
Lismore 7,000
Perth 30,000
Sofia 2,000
Copenhagen 10,000
Cairo 2,000
Stuttgart 50,000
Dublin 100,000
Tokyo: 25.000
Seoul 10,000
Auckland 10,000
Wellington 7,000
Gaza 15,000
Manila 6,000
Moscow 1,000
Algeciras 15,000
Andalusia 20,000+
Cadiz 100,000
Ferrol 15,000+
Huesca 5,000+
Lugo 12,000
Malaga 50,000
Oviedo 200,000
Las Palmas 100,000
Santander 35,000
Seville 250,000
Damascus 200,000
Bangkok 3,000
Pattani 10,000
Istanbul 5,000
Kiev 2,000
Glasgow 61,000
Bergen 8000
Stavanger 5000
Tromso 3000
Montreal 150.000

and

Baghdad 100.000

	16-02-2003 03:09									#178
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quote: Originally posted by Velociryx Well, in any case, I'd hardly call them massive. Even the best estimates of the organizers were 3 million people, world wide, with police and other authorities claiming about half that number. Given the total population of the nations participating in the festivities, it amounted to little more than a p*ss in the proverbial pot. -=Vel=-

I think you fail to understand the magnitude of the crowds...

Apparently the crowd in London is supposedly the largest one here since VE Day

Today was a cold day by London standards with a minus windchill factor and yet this huge crowd STILL turned out - the warmongers ignore this massive public opinion at their peril...

Plus that figure doesn't count the HUNDREDS of other protests up and down the country.

The reason for this war is unjust, it will only become just when used as a last resort - and not as a first resort as the americans intended!

	16-02-2003 03:09									#179
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quote: Originally posted by Asher Only four? This definitely tells me which way the party is going, and it's going to be right into Iraq.

How many voted for the CA motion on Iraq on the same day, sweetheart?

4 MPs breaking with the party on such a definitive motion is very important.

The party as a whole is comfortable with not saying yes or no until it's too late to say yes...but if there's any discontent with that position it's from those who want to side with France, not those who want to side with the US.

	16-02-2003 03:09									#180
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The organisers at the Toronto protest claimed 80,000. I think this is way off the mark. I estimate about 40-50,000 based on the size compared to the last one (10,000 or so). Osweld is right: a lot of people left during the march because it was absolutely freezing.

Anyway, at a guess I'd say this is easily the largest world wide protest in history, and for those that think its a "p*ss in a pot" as someone said, I'd remind you that the actual protests are usually just the tip of the iceberg.

If the London protest got about 1.1 million (which seems a reasonable figure since the police apparently only counted those on the actual march and not those who came by other routes to the rally, that is about one-fiftieth of the population of the United Kingdom.

Take away most of the children, the elderly, those who couldn't be there for other reasons, and those who couldn't make the trip to London, and that's an absolutely huge protest. The biggest in British history no less.

The pro-war side took a beating at the UN yesterday and an absolute hammering today. The anti-war position is not merely that of the socialist workers, anarchists, et al (who were in a distinct minority today much to their chagrin) but of the majority of the world's citizens. There is no silent pro war majority, I'm afraid.

So suck it up - if you want war, almost no one else does. Them's just the facts.