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Ramo
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Austin, Texas, USA
Oct 1999
time: 23:26
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quote:
In contrast, the Fall of Rome had no positive aspects. |
Again, I would disagree in that the Fall of Western Rome wasn't all that bad a thing, definitely not a catastrophe for Western Europe. It certainly did have positive aspects. For instance, in terms of religious tolerance. Rome was a remarkably authoritarian society particularly after Christianity took hold. In contrast, after the Empire completely collapses and maybe a century or so later, religious persecution basically ends in Western Europe, and doesn't really start up again until the 11th century.
Again, most of the problems in Western society (serfdom, etc.) after the collapse of Rome began while the Empire was still still on its feet, as the problems were caused by the changing demographics and structures of authority and therefore would've happened with or without Roman authority. One only needs to look at the Eastern Empire (which was far richer, more populous, more trade-oriented, etc. than Western Europe) to verify this.
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chegitz guevara
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Ft. Lauderdale, FL Communist Party of Apolyton
Jun 2000
time: 00:26
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Europe was emerging from the dark ages, and was advancing and almost booming by the late XIIIth century. Then the Little Ice Age began, crops failed for three years, and thirty years later the plague came. It took Europe 150 years to recover.
While the Toba event is clearly the most destructive event in human history, it's not within our historical knowledge. The 535AD eruption of Krakatoa, however, is. Krakatoa spelled the end of Justinian's empire, brought about Justinian's Plauge, caused the collapse of Teotehuacan in the Americas, caused the fall of King Arthur's realm, destroyed Indian and Chinese realms, etc. The only thing that comes close in human history is the Black Death, which wiped out anywhere from 1/3rd to 90% of Europe (depending on where you lived). India, China, and the Middle East were all similarly affected.
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Ramo
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Austin, Texas, USA
Oct 1999
time: 23:26
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quote:
While I'd like to take your word for it, I would prefer to rely on reputable historical sources, like the Oxford Encyclopedia of World History... |
che's absolutely correct. The 13th century was an age of economic boon for Europe. Serfdom was dying, populations were exploding, there were people like William of Ockham who were starting an intellectual revolution, etc., etc. The Black Death changed all that.
Last edited by Ramo on 19-02-2003 at 09:45
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Comrade Tassadar
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France.
US, Hitler, they whine, their arrogent, stupid....
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Heresson
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of frogs
Jun 2000
time: 06:26
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quote:
Without the unreasonably harsh penalties against Germany imposed by the Treaty of Versailles, it is likely Hitler would never had risen to power and the rise of Nazism, the Holocaust and WWII would never have happened.
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That's something I can not agree with.
First of all, penalties against Germany weren't at all harsh. It lost little land. Alsace, Lorraigne (Lotaryngia in Polish, I'm not quite sure of the western name), which it took several decades earlier, and part of what it took from Poland not much more than a century earlier.
The mistake was not treating Germany harsh. It was treating it not enough harsh. German politicians from the very first moment after the treaty started talking about that it has to be changed. And the mights did not
forbid that. Hitler was a moderate when it comes to the
boarder with Poland in comparison to the earlier politicians.
Germany never paid the money it was supposed to pay.
Anyway, it's like if You said "throwing the guy into a prison made him become a criminal". That's right when it comes to children, but not when it comes to Germany, which has a longer tradition of nationalism.
quote:
why would you make this difference between the two?
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The difference is obvious. While Jesus created a philosophy of love or whatever it can be called, and the church, the orthodoxy, are later additions (I would call it
a shield or an armour protecting the essence of Chritianism, perhaps covering it too much sometimes).
Muhammad created just the armour.
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Boris Godunov
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Portland, OR
Aug 2001
time: 00:26
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quote:
Originally posted by Ned
To a great extent, the ending of political unity in the Empire caused by German, Arab and Viking conquests all but killed trade and the monetary economy. This had a collateral effect of depopulating cities. This in turn killed off skilled labor and education.
Perhaps Europe's lack of political unity lead to strong competition in Europe's outward colonization. But it took a very long time to bring civilization up to where it had been during the Empire. Many estimate that it took 'til 1850 to reach the level of civilization that the Romans enjoyed. For Europe, this meant 1400 years of comeback.
No the Huns, Andrianople and the birth of Mohammend combined to kill a great civilization. |
You're off here. The killing of trade and the monetary economy, as well as the depopulating of cities, was already happening when the Empire was in existence. It wasn't a result of the Germans, etc. coming in, it was part of the cause of their being able to invade. Roman political hegemony in Europe had been in decline for well over a century before the invasions became a serious problem. This was due to overextension, the army's massive portion of the economy and the system that said Italy didn't have to pay taxes, but the provinces did.
Once the legions ran out of places to steal loot from to finance themselves, the system fell apart.
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Eli
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Israel
Jul 2000
time: 07:26
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quote:
Yup. It has a habit of blowing itself up about every 150 years. Sometimes it's really bad and causes global climate change, as in 535AD (and probably the early XIVth century as well). This leads to less crops growing which causes starvation. The lowered temperatures cause outbreaks of plauge, hanta virus, and other extremely lethal diseases. They also caused nomadic peoples to migrate. In 535 it was the Avars, in the XIVth Century it was the Mongols. |
There was also an eruption/explosion in 1883 IIRC that caused a lot of mess.
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19-02-2003 00:36
Precisely, Boris.
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