16-02-2003 21:15									#1
	Early Landing Comparison Game #1 Full PM-box? Change here!

To those not following the recent discussion in the "Going for 1000 AD" thread, welcome to the first of possibly many more Early Landing Comparison Games.

The object is to see who can launch and land a space ship first in a game where all players begin with the same start, and anyone is welcome to participate. All you have to do is download the attached save to get started.

The start was randomly generated on a medium map at deity level, with 7 civs and with the raging hordes barbarian setting. You will be playing the Romans and will be starting without any free techs. There is a suitable SSC (Super Science City) site, just to the left of the settlers starting position, with two of its specials already in sight.

We have adopted the following set of rules for these games, which will be open to modification in future games if the majority of players agree to make changes:

1. You may not tip any huts. The emphasis instead, will be on player skill. Any hut appearing inside the radius of any of your cities can be removed by placing a city worker on the hut's tile. The hut will vanish without giving a result. Other huts are simply ignored.

2. You may not use the caravan rehoming exploit, since the game attempts to prohibit this. Any other ploy or exploit is allowed.

3. You will have 3 weeks to complete your game, which means this one will end on Sunday, March 9.

4. You should keep a detailed chronological log of your game, listing all significant events. You are free and are encouraged to embellish this with extra commentary or with accounts of how your strategies worked.

5. When your game is finished, you should post your log in this thread along with a save of the final position, just before the landing. Please refrain from inspecting the logs of others until you have finished your own game and have posted your own results.

Good luck to all players, and don't forget to have fun!

Attachment: ca_b4000.sav
This has been downloaded 38 time(s).

	16-02-2003 21:42									#2
	Increase Your PM Length

Thanks solo. I have the game and note that it loads with 2.42, which is how I'll play it.

----------------------

SG(2)

	16-02-2003 21:55									#3
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

I've got the game as well - and also plan on 2.42 - don't forget to post which version in your log

	17-02-2003 01:02									#4
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by solo 1. You may not tip any huts. The emphasis instead, will be on player skill. Any hut appearing inside the radius of any of your cities can be removed by placing a city worker on the hut's tile. The hut will vanish without giving a result. Other huts are simply ignored.

It is not easy to ignore a hut: it blocks your movement.

An easy way how to remove huts is to switch to the scenario mode, to turn huts off and switch back to normal game. I did it for your game and attached the file here.

	17-02-2003 01:40									#5
	Support Apolyton

Thanks SlowThinker for taking the trouble to create a new start, but part of the idea of leaving huts was to help out the AI. We also did not want to open the tech tree, which happens in scenario mode.

I have another remedy to this problem, which will allow us to retain huts on the map, yet move anywhere we wish:

If a hut blocks your movement, save the game. Reload and tip the hut enough times until a unit of some kind is produced. After this, disband that unit, immediately. This will take care of blocking huts in the same way Paul solved the problem of advanced tribes from huts in OCC.

Players shouldn't have to resort to doing this too often, as there is almost always an alternative path for getting past huts.

	17-02-2003 02:37									#6
	Tired of ads?

quote: Originally posted by solo We also did not want to open the tech tree, which happens in scenario mode.

If you save the game as a .sav file and not a scn. file then you have hidden techs. (as in my attachment)

quote: but part of the idea of leaving huts was to help out the AI

better to disband one settler ...

	17-02-2003 03:12									#7
	Re: Early Landing Comparison Game #1 Suffering from ads?

quote: Originally posted by solo The object is to see who can launch and land a space ship first in a game where all players begin with the same start,

If this is really the object, I know the answer
(... perhaps except if samson comes back ).

Anyway I shall play it (hoping to improve my poor 'early landing ability')

	17-02-2003 04:20									#8
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Slow Thinker I for one am more than happy to play under the conditions that solo has arranged. If you wish to post an alternative comparison game (in a different thread) contributing your considerable wisdom about early landings then I'm sure some might join you.

--------------------

SG(2)

	17-02-2003 06:15									#9
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

Scouse Gits, my wisdom...my wisdom... I never saw a spaceship, my Civ2 wisdom ends somewhere at Gunpowder and Michelangelo.

	17-02-2003 06:19									#10
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

ST ... well join in the fun here

---------------

SG(2)

	17-02-2003 12:48									#11
	Increase Your PM Length

For the avoidance of doubt (as the lawyers used to say to me) I believe it is legal to move a settler SW (thus tipping the hut, but finishing on the river) provided I keep doing it until I get a disbandable unit from the hut and then disband that unit.

I wanted to check before I make my first move!

RJM at Sleepers

/edit (although on reflection and reading the hint I'm not sure I want to do that anyway!) /end edit

	17-02-2003 13:42									#12
	Remove this text

If I find time I may well play this - but I fear my log will read something like ...

quote: 1742 = Karakorum falls to my exploring Armour and the game ends mysteriously - something about there being no opposition left

such is the lot of RARs...

SG[1]

	17-02-2003 14:44									#13
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

I will play along if I have time.

For those of us who can't remember the myriad of your and Samson's records Solo could you put aside your modesty and clarify:

Best with rehoming, huts, great start.
Best with any restrictions you have imposed.

First game on a map is preferred for records IMO.

	17-02-2003 20:04									#14
	Increase the size of your Attachments

This is HARD!
Did I ever mention how much I detest early(ish) Republic?

spoiler(highlight to read): The bloody chinese are set to knock me back into the stoneage from which I'm not sure I have actually emerged...

SG[1]

	17-02-2003 20:19									#15
	Tired of ads?

quote: Originally posted by Scouse Gits This is HARD! Did I ever mention how much I detest early(ish) Republic? SG[1]

I'll have to agree - I've pulled up some of my OCC logs and found i got a quicker start, but am falling behind them now techwise

spoiler(highlight to read): The Chinese capital was captured by barbarians early on, but the Mongols are constantly harrassing me, so much so I've had to turn off science completely on more than one occasion so that i could properly defend against them. If it weren't for the AI considering a phalanx an offensive unit, I'd have lost a city or 2 by now

	17-02-2003 21:32									#16
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

rjmatsleepers,

Yes, that's okay. Just make sure to save the game before tipping a hut, so that you can reload if the hut does not produce a unit that can be disbanded.

SG(1) & Dr. Spike,

The time limit is still negotiable, and so far I have not heard from anyone wanting to keep it short. If most players would prefer an extra week, we can postpone the deadline until March, 16.

Records are numerous, and most are qualified in one way or another. Offhand,

Best (and only game) with rehoming - 776 AD
Best with many starting techs and with huts - 336 AD small map, 241 AD - medium map, 295 - large map
Best with many starting techs and without huts - 956 AD

Most of these games benefited from some knowledge about the map.

As of yet, there is no record I know of for a random start, no free techs, and no hut tipping. It will belong to whoever does best in this game.

SG(1) & SCG,

I agree, it is hard! Just trying to make up for not having free techs should extend the game 40 turns or more. It took me a long time to learn my first 8 in this game. You also have less bargaining power to work with when dealing with the AI early in the game. Although difficult, my game so far has been fun.

	17-02-2003 22:00									#17
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

quote: Originally posted by solo Best (and only game) with rehoming - 776 AD Best with many starting techs and with huts - 336 AD small map, 241 AD - medium map, 295 - large map Best with many starting techs and without huts - 956 AD

Didn't you want to try rehoming for those really early games to try and get the earliest time possible?

There are 2 times that I think are interesting; one using huts, great start, starting techs, and rehoming to get the best time possible, and the second we are about to attempt.

	17-02-2003 22:01									#18
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Also Solo what do you think is a good target for the rules we have set? 1250AD?

	17-02-2003 22:09									#19
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

quote: Originally posted by solo SG(1) & SCG, I agree, it is hard! Just trying to make up for not having free techs should extend the game 40 turns or more. It took me a long time to learn my first 8 in this game. You also have less bargaining power to work with when dealing with the AI early in the game. Although difficult, my game so far has been fun.

[rant]I was in republic 40 turns in (and before i got my 7th tech), but other than getting one handy off-path tech, I would have been better off hunting down and destroying the Mongols with as 'friendly' they've been. Half the time i gift techs to the Mongols (I'm supreme), my beaker total remained unchanged... I don't think the Zulu's destroying the English and barbs capturing the Chinese capital helped much either (barb Beijing is still #5 even with 2 cities having wonders)[/rant]

Anyway, when i land (and i still plan on landing ), I'll post my log as how not to get an early landing - and yes, its been fun, and hopefully some people will get a kick out of my use of city names

	18-02-2003 14:14									#20
	Put an end to popups!

quote: Originally posted by DrSpike Also Solo what do you think is a good target for the rules we have set? 1250AD?

My attempt is going really badly. I'll be very pleased if I can land before 1850!

BTW I'm having a couple of problems with the game.

Firstly, I built a city adjacent to the small lake at (16,20) but the menu is not offering me the chance to build a trireme. Is this a standard feature related to the size of the lake that I have never noticed before?

Secondly, I am blocked from getting to the diplomacy screen. The AI civ says that it is always pleased to speak to me, but then returns to normal game screen. Hence no trading maps, insisting on troops withdrawing, etc.

A possible diagnostic feature. Two buttons have appeared at the top left hand corner which zoom the map in and out. This may be a standard setting that I don't use and didn't realise was there, but I mention it in case it is related.

Any wise men out there who can tell me what is going on?

RJM at Sleepers

	18-02-2003 16:14									#21
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

A bit of a shot in the dark - but have you tried clicking View | Arrange Windows - sometimes I have experienced 'masking effects' that have been cured by this ploy?

SG[1]

	18-02-2003 18:58									#22
	Put an end to popups!

quote: Originally posted by rjmatsleepers Firstly, I built a city adjacent to the small lake at (16,20) but the menu is not offering me the chance to build a trireme. Is this a standard feature related to the size of the lake that I have never noticed before? RJM at Sleepers

I have a city next to that lake at 16,22 and I can't build a boat either ... but why would you want to? Cities adjacent to inland seas must have more than one water tile directly next to the founding square.

Don't despair ... with no starting techs or huts and with loving neighbours like the Mongols this game is slow progress.

I'm sorry I can't help with your other problem.

---------------------------

SG(2)

	18-02-2003 19:33									#23
	Git One down! Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Early Landing #1 - dream on!!!

3950 = Rome founded (22,16); Settler roading Wine;
3900 = Pottery selected;
3750 = Road completed;
3700 = Pottery -> Alphabet; Warrior completed -> Settler;
3550 = Veii founded (18,12);
3300 = Warrior in Veii, another started; Second wine revealed;
3250 = Alphabet -> Writing;
3150 = Warrior rushed in Veii;
3100 = Veii starts Gardens;
3050 = Rome builds Settler;
2800 = Writing -> Code of Laws;
2600 = Icy Mongols come calling, gift all techs, peace no alliance;
2500 = Mine completed on wine;
2400 = Code of Laws -> Literacy; give to Mongols;
2250 = Antium founded (19,19); Rome builds Settler;
1900 = Literacy -> The Republic; Second Wine now roaded, start mine; gift Lit to Mongols;
1850 = Icy Chinese (Supreme), gift two tech, peace;
1600 = 100K, Veii(3), Rome(1), Antium(2);
1500 = The Republic -> Bronze Working; Antium build Settler;
1450 = Republic established; Lux @ 30%; Warrior disbanded into Gardens;
1400 = Cumae founded (16,22);
1200 = Bronze Working -> Map Making;
1100 = Mongols force us to declare war on Chinese;
1000 = Map Making -> Currency; Establish embassy with Mongols;
0900 = disband diplo and warrior;
0875 = Veii builds Hanging Gardens;
0850 = Currency -> Trade; swap for Ceremonial Burial with Mongols who once more force us to declare war on Chinese;
0700 = Chinese Horse just thwarted with help from Mongols; Neapolis founded (25,13); Population now 410,000
0675 = Trade -> Mysticism;
0500 = Mysticism -> Masonry;
0350 = Masonry -> Construction;
0325 = Veii builds Colossus;
0200 = Construction -> Mathematics;
0175 = Veii(8) builds Library;
0100 = Mathematics -> Astronomy;
AD40 = Astronomy -> Philosophy;
0140 = Philosophy -> Medicine;
0180 = Medicine -> Seafaring; Pompeii founded (14,6);
0200 = Veii builds Aqueduct; The Chinese are all over my back yard! (again);
0260 = Seafaring -> University;
0340 = Veii(10) builds Harbour, sells Temple;
0360 = Veii builds Shakespeare's Theatre;
0400 = Sneak attack by Mongols on Antium, reinforcement blocked by wandering Chinese!
0420 = Sneak attack by Chinese - Rome falls!
0440 = Mongols take Cumae; English destroyed by Zulus;
0480 = Mongols take Antium; Capital moves to Veii; Peace & Maps with Chinese; My forces now consist of 1 Phalanx (on island), 1 Trireme garrisoning Veii and a wandering Diplo - I HATE THIS GAME;
0540 = University -> Theory of Gravity;
0620 = Cumae bought back The Wheel gained;
0680 = Cumae destroyed by Mongol attack;

This game can still be won - but not as an Early Landing - I resign!

SG[1] - much chagrined

Attachment: ca_a680.zip
This has been downloaded 5 time(s).

	18-02-2003 19:55									#24
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Dr. Spike,

Rehoming carries a certain stigma, which is why I have not used it after my first sub 1000 AD result.

Otherwise I agree with your assessment of two classes of records, one where you grab any and all advantages allowed within the rules, and the other where elements of luck are reduced to better test player skill, as in this comparison game.

1250 would be a good target, but may be very tough to achieve. I'll have a better idea when I see if my cities can manage enough science for 1 turn advances, as this will be the key.

SCG,

I think gifting techs to the key civ only causes a change for every three or so techs difference between you and them. If you are giving more than 3 at a time and still seeing no change, I do not know exactly why, but it is possible that when the Zulus took out the English, that key civ assignments were shifted, leaving you without any civ to key on, which would be terrible luck.

rjmatsleepers,

If I remember right, a one tile lake will not permit building a ship.

Checking your graphics settings, to see if the diplomacy screen option has become unchecked.

The top left hand corner scrolling options have always been available to me, so I do not think this is an oddity.

No starting techs really increases difficulty, and a with a landing in the 1800's you may have some company.

	18-02-2003 20:39									#25
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

quote: Originally posted by solo SCG, I think gifting techs to the key civ only causes a change for every three or so techs difference between you and them. If you are giving more than 3 at a time and still seeing no change, I do not know exactly why, but it is possible that when the Zulus took out the English, that key civ assignments were shifted, leaving you without any civ to key on, which would be terrible luck.

Exactly the same happened in my game - the English were vanquished by the Zulus (We should have played that Cricket Match in Harare )

Restarts are on and the replacement Civ is the Carthaginians. I can assure you SCG that gifting tech to the Mongols does pay dividends! Like most of us, I had a period of War with them and during hostilities could not give them advances. After peace I dumped an encarta of tech on their doorstep and my science rate improved.

[1] At first I didn't realise the log was your's ... I saw 680AD at the end and thought solo had landed

An interesting and devious map solo!

-----------------------------

SG(2)

	18-02-2003 21:43									#26
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Cheered by solo's remarks about the 19th century - the RAR picks up where he left off - on a war footing!

SG[1]

	18-02-2003 23:41									#27
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

heh, and i thought I was having a rough go of it - I lost my domestic trading colony to barbs at one point (got a couple non-archers out of it before reclaiming the city), but otherwise have managed (just by the difference of a knight turning yellow after catching a trireme in port) to hang onto my other cities so far - I've had to go on the offensive - I've captured 4 mongol cities and have more city walls than i have libraries, but i'm still going for a landing maybe I'll post a halfway log after i get home from work

	19-02-2003 04:04									#28
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Dr SPIKE
I notice that you didn't use any smilie when you mentioned 1250AD as a target
Have you had a try?
IMO if someone beats 1300AD, it will be solo and no one else.
(I guess I'll be happy if I beat 1800AD )

SG(1)
I didn't read your log (except the last line ...easy going...)

	19-02-2003 04:51									#29
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Yeah ya got me La Fayette, I played the game and landed in 1240, so I tried to set the target at 1250.

Nah I just wanted Solo's opinion on how much the changes to his recent games would affect the time he expected to get. Maybe 1250 is a little ambitious (I haven't seen the map yet), though Solo said there was a nice SSC site.

	19-02-2003 12:30									#30
	Increase the size of your Attachments

Another one bites the dust

I hit a further problem. I lost one end of my canal system to the Mongols. I went to subvert it back and discovered that my diplomat was not allowed to enter the city - no embassy, no investigation, no sabotage and no subversion. At this point my interest declined and I stopped keeping a log. Some time later another part of my canal was subverted by the zulus - a size 1 city on a mountain with city walls. Without being able to subvert it myself I couldn't see any way of getting it back So I stopped.

However, I was already in the 19th century and still researching industrialisation so I wasn't about to set any records.

I suspect my problems are due to my save file having become corrupted since other saves load and run fine. I might go back to the start and try again - for fun rather than as a comparison game of course.

RJM at Sleepers