09-03-2003 12:27									#181
	Re: 1335 AC logs Increase Your PM Length

quote: Originally posted by Bloody Monk First Early Landing Comparison Game Log Explore a bit first. I like to have the SSC further down the list so its beakers will carry over after an advance is learned.

A magnificent early landing and a very instructive log - thanks (particularly since you had to reconstruct it)

I am interested in your observation on when to found the SSC. I have been playing in the belief that cities are processed in the reverse order of foundation - ie newer ones before older ones. I therefore assumed that the best chance of getting beakers carried over was to achieve the advance before reaching the SSC. I interpreted this as meaning that I wanted my SSC processed as late as possible - ie I wanted it founded as early as possible. Where did I go wrong? Is there a link in the Great Library that will throw some light on this?

RJM at Sleepers

	09-03-2003 21:35									#182
	Remove this text

@rjm

Yes, it is a LIFO order, last in, first out.

Having a newer city to fill the beaker box to trigger an advance, after many deliveries, early in the processing allows for a second advance in that turn from the SSC contribution. If the SSC is your first city, then any excess over that needed to trigger the second advance is lost. If your SSC is further down the list, those extra beakers, and the beakers contributed by, in this example, the first and second cities, get carried over toward the next advance.

Possibly, you are not thinking big enough. It sounds like you are focusing on the second advance in a turn, whereas, I am planning to get the third--if not his time, then sooner. Whatever, I have found it more efficient not to have the first city be the SSC.

I am glad you found the log informative and instructive. It was my hope that others might catch the bug, so to speak. So I tried to describe the "why" behind the moves. The focus and mindset needed in an early landing is different from the usual gameplay and I tried to show that. I hope you are enjoying playing the Early Landing Game.

Monk

	09-03-2003 21:45									#183
	Addendum to log Suffering from ads?

On Rush buying

One thing I didn't mention is my philosopy on using your gold to speed the build process. In the early part of the game there isn't enough gold around to matter; but, after deliveries start, I try to build things quickly.

Either, fill-out-the-row buying; or one turn and buy the rest, line by line, the second turn; or, in the case of the SSC, a hard rush buying in one turn (start by buying a barracks for 160, then switching to dip, 25g, and switching to settler, 25g, and letting the 10+ shields in the SSC finish the build.)

I follow the plan SG(2) described previously for white goods. Improvements should be started one turn and paid in full the next, where possible. When gold is abundant, use it.

The general rule is, "Gold in the bank represents TIME lost." Early Landing is above all about Time.

Monk

	09-03-2003 21:56									#184
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quote: Originally posted by BM 540 Bribe Aztec camel,

Why do you bribe a camel? Did it block you?

quote: Originally posted by BM 2750 A note about city placement. Solo has shown the advantage of placing cities on the coast. They can build boats and harbors; boats because this is essentially a trade based game, and harbors to reduce the need for irrigating.

I agree but I think you could wait with the coast cities. They are essential later when they can be easily grown by WLTxD but now you needn't them. I suggest to play first 4-8 cities as ICS to get a shield/arrow power.

quote: place embargo on Monarchy as gift until Republic can be learned and gifted--I want a Mong Republic

Do you want to say they wouldn't switch from Monarchy to Rep?

quote: Coal(d)... Salt(x-d)...

What's that?

When I planned my game I supposed I would found cities very far from my SSC . I downloaded your .sav file and noticed that you didn't do it. Is it too dangerous or too slow?

	09-03-2003 22:32									#185
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Hello Slow,

1) Bribing the camel was a gamble. I didn't want the slot to be taken ( by an Aztec delivery) and me not receive the bonus, especially the beakers. Allowing it to deliver for the Aztec would have stolen a supply slot from me. Just about any commodity would deliver with enough gold to pay for itself; at least, that was my hope.

2) That may work in a regular game, but in an Early Landing game, you need to get explorations going quickly. Also, too many cities can slow you down. The game was won handily by Solo with ONLY nine cities total. While you are sleazing 8 cities, he has raced ahead. This style of play revolves around the idea, " Do less and accomplish more."

3) I didn't want them to have an option about going to a Monarchy. Making sure they became a Republic, now, was the aim.

4) Others have used this convention. I am sorry it caused some confusion for you. Coming immediately (without a space) after the commodity, (d) means demanded, while (xd) means not demanded.

5) I waited too late to start the offshore colonies and decided to go with two beside each other. This way they could work from the same boat when sending out their freights. Another possible site could have been the land south of and across the Aztec Sea, as the boats going to Aztlan could have continued on to that site w/out much delay. The thought of danger did not enter my mind. You have to assume some risk--from Barbs--where ever you build.

Hope this makes things more clear, SlowT.

Monk

	09-03-2003 22:56									#186
	Inflate your Upload Space

Monk,

quote: The game was won handily by Solo with

Whoa!!! There's still another week, because I extended the deadline. Many talented players are still lurking out there.

I enjoyed reading your log which gave me a few new ideas. I am getting the impression you want to win the next game, and welcome the challenge!

I don't want to hear any more lame excuses like "I was sick", either!

	09-03-2003 23:15									#187
	Increase the size of your Attachments

Hey Solo,

I did mean, "won the game." Someone else may yet win the challenge, but, you did have a Landing.

I'm guessing that, "the dog ate my hard drive," won't fly either.

Seriously, I will play again; but my typing, especially from notes, really sucks, and I can't see spending four days composing a log again. It's a burn-out.

Monk

	10-03-2003 00:09									#188
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Monk,

Reconstructing a log from saves is a real pain. I write my own down on paper while playing just to make sure this record won't evaporate in cyberspace. Typing it up later is a chore, though, and the game might have been perfected if there had been an option to "keep a written log." Such a feature could have been easily implemented.

	10-03-2003 00:11									#189
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quote: Originally posted by Bloody Monk Seriously, I will play again; but my typing, especially from notes, really sucks, and I can't see spending four days composing a log again.

I found out the only way is to write the log carefully when playing.

	10-03-2003 00:25									#190
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quote: Originally posted by SlowThinker I found out the only way is to write the log carefully when playing.

Thats what i do as well. keeping your thoughts in the notepad also can sometimes remind you of what you are trying to do. Anyway, I save my notes every turn or 2 along with the save file. In the past when i was worried about a crash, i would sometimes back up every few turns onto a different drive as well (both save and log)

	10-03-2003 00:56									#191
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Is there a way to make the bold/underlined elements transfer from Wordpad when you paste over here??

If you brought the file over as an attachment, would that work??

Monk

	10-03-2003 01:21									#192
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Monk,
1. I suppose the attachment must work.

2. You can load a WordPad text in Word, then save it as a html. The html source code may be posted in Apolyton forums, but you have to delete (or better replace by spaces) all end-of-line markers. So rename the html as txt, then load again in Word as a plain text, then 'find and replace' end-of-line markers by spaces (I have made a Word macro for this purpose, so that I only need to press Ctrl-F12).

	10-03-2003 01:22									#193
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quote: Originally posted by Bloody Monk Is there a way to make the bold/underlined elements transfer from Wordpad when you paste over here?? If you brought the file over as an attachment, would that work?? Monk

i just type it into the text. for [ b ]bold[ / b ], for [ i ]italics[ / i ], and [ u ]underline[ / u ], its pretty straight forward, as is < s >slash through< / s >. just remove the spaces . other html text can be inserted as desired And all it do is type it as is in notepad, then copy/paste into my post

	10-03-2003 01:28									#194
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

quote: Originally posted by SlowThinker Monk, 1. I suppose the attachment must work. 2. You can load a WordPad text in Word, then save it as a html. The html source code may be posted in Apolyton forums, but you have to delete (or better replace by spaces) all end-of-line markers. So rename the html as txt, then load again in Word as a plain text, then 'find and replace' end-of-line markers by spaces (I have made a Word macro for this purpose, so that I only need to press Ctrl-F12).

one danger of saving a word document as html is that word may use up your entire character quota (see "check message length" for current max). I tried that once and i wound up about 5x over the limit (it was all hidden, unnecessary formatting, header info, etc)

	10-03-2003 03:23									#195
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Thanks, fellows. I am looking for a shortcut to adding in all the vb coding by hand. It may sound lame to some, but extented typing and editing is very hard, even painful, for me.

The log is readable without the bold, etc, effects. That may have to suffice.

Monk

	12-03-2003 04:37									#196
	Increase the size of your Attachments

Solo,

It is my hope that you are planning to discuss the various aspects of Trade in your "White Paper" on Early Landing. The previous posts dealing with Wonder Bread, unblocking of slots are very helpful, especially the examples. The three recent threads you and Samson collaborated to create had so much vital intelligence, but they are also somewhat hard to follow. And the math parts stump me completely.


What is a Remainder??, for instance. Using the wildcard formula for example, I don't get anything like the 0-16 result the table suggests. Perhaps an example using the SSC coord's of this game (18,12) would help. That is, if you have the time.

The reason I think this info belongs in an Early Landing discussion is placement of colonies, since there are so few of them. If one could determine which tiles would give the best supply back to the SSC, it could make a huge difference in the final outcome.

Hope you don't mind my 2cents being floated about.

Monk

	12-03-2003 06:18									#197
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Monk,

I agree that the calculations can be a bit daunting, especially if you want to figure out all supplies and demands, since each individual commodity has to be calculated. When I was working with Samson on this, by checking his formulas, I would have the answers right in front of me, and was just trying to verify his formulas, but often came up with something different due to slight errors here or there. It's very tricky.

However, wildcards are quite straightforward and easy to do, as long as you know the meaning of the remainder function.

First of all, a remainder is what is left if a number does not divide evenly into another. For example, 4/2= 2 with no remainder, since 2x2 = 4. You could also call this a zero remainder. 5/2 = 2 also, in integer math, but this does not come out even, since 2 x 2 = 4. The remainder is found by subtracting 4 from 5, so in this case the remainder is 1. 8/3 = 2, and this time the remainder is 2, which can be found be multiplying 2x3 and getting 6, which when subtracted from 8 equals 2.

Now when you divide with a calulator , you'll get real number as a result. For example, 8/3 = 2.6666666
The .66666 is the remainder expressed as a fraction. We can convert it to an integer by multiplying it by 3.
3 x .66666 = 1.99999, which is closest to 2, so 2 ends up as the remainder. Since you'll probably want to use a calulator, it's easiest to do it like this:

Step 1 8/3 = 2.66666
Step 2 2.66666 - 2 = .666666 (all we want is the remainder)
Step 3 .66666 x 3 = 1.99999, which we round up to 2

All three steps can be done without having to punch in all the digits of the remainder, if you do it like this.

Now for the SSC in our game at coordinates (18,12):

Let's do the first wildcards, before 32 techs are known.

Supply = (18x13 + 12x7)/14
= (234 + 84)/14
= 318/14 = 22.71
remainder of 22.71 = 22.71 - 22 = .71 x 14 = 10 silver

Demand = (18x3 + 12x5)/14
= (54 + 60)/14
= 114/14 = 8.14
remainder of 8.14 = 8.14 - 8 = .14 x 14 = 2 beads

Now let's do it after 32 techs are known. Notice that 318 and 114 are used again, and only have to be figured out once:

Supply = 318/9 = 35.33
remainder of 35.33 = 35.33 - 35 = .33 x 9 = 3
add 5 to 3 to get the commodity # which is 8 wine

Demand = 114/9 = 12.66
remainder of 12.66 = 12.66 - 12 = .66 x 9 = 6
add 5 to 6 to get 11 spice

That's all there is to figuring wildcards.

Trade is my favorite subject, and is getting its own chapter in my little guide, but I haven't gotten to it yet.

	12-03-2003 06:57									#198
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Solo,

Gee whiz!! That's a great example. And now it is clear how these formulas work.

I had two problems. It was not clear how to convert the decimal remainder to a whole number (eg, X14). And I miss-used the coordinates; a process I still do not understand.

The way I see it the Civ expression (18, 12) represents (V, H); whereas, you are using (H, V). Since the "18" row goes from top to bottom, I thought it was a Vertical expression, rather than Horizontal. Same with the "12" going east-west representing Horizontal, rather than Vertical. I guess I just don't "see" it the same way and that basic definitional problem caused big problems for me. But I am certainly willing to adapt for the sake of following these formulas.

Thanks much.

Monk

	12-03-2003 07:11									#199
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Monk,

Wait until you start trying to figure out Eastern and Western hemispheres! Many of the commodity calculations would have been easier for me to follow if there had been a few examples. It's a good thing that I usually get enough info from wildcards to suit my purposes when playing a game.

	12-03-2003 07:23									#200
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quote: Originally posted by solo Monk, Wait until you start trying to figure out Eastern and Western hemispheres! Many of the commodity calculations would have been easier for me to follow if there had been a few examples. It's a good thing that I usually get enough info from wildcards to suit my purposes when playing a game.

Yeah, I laughed--with sympathy--at that part of the thread. And it still seems murky after the fourth reading. So, you are right about how much I do not look forward to making those adjustments.

Do you go by the wildcard results, alone, when choosing colony sites??

Monk

	12-03-2003 21:03									#201
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Monk,

Colony wildcards are a factor, but the main qualities I look for in a colony are:

1) Strategic locations that facilitate quick freight deliveries to good AI trading partners. Distance (lack or too much of it) from home is a major factor.

2) Good sites that grow quickly and that have good specials. I look less for shields and more for food and trade.

If many sites qualify, then I pick the ones with better wildcards.

Wildcards are more of a factor when comparing AI cities for inciting revolts, such as Isandlhwara, in this game.

For AI trading partners, the main reason I have for checking demand wildcards is to see if the new ones coming at 32 techs will be more useful than the old ones. Then I gift techs accordingly.

Earlier in the game, all you have is old wildcards, and you can just click on AI cities to see what they are, since they almost always are present as the middle commodity.

During that part of the game, I'll keep track of cycle turns to make sure demanded commodities can be delivered in time, but sometimes when I have something I'd like to deliver and can not find any demand, I'll go into more detail, looking for an AI city where I might be able to trigger it by delivering something else first.

	13-03-2003 08:10									#202
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Solo,

I am doing an exercise, figuring wildcards for this past game, and I have noticed something. I don't remember seeing this in the "Solo Cycle" thread, but may have missed your note of this point.

The Find City screen scrolls thru the cities in pages of 16. Did you know that?? The designers hid that one in plain sight.

Monk

	13-03-2003 20:36									#203
	Increase the size of your Attachments

I think it's more of a coincidence. Computers use base 2, and multiples of it such as 4,8,16,32, etc. 16 is two bytes, a very common word size. Notice there are also 16 commodities, and 16 of a lot of other things, too.

	13-03-2003 20:48									#204
	Put an end to popups!

Yes, that is true. But the Advisor screen is '9' at a time, and the city advisor is '12' at a time. Not base 2, I think.

Coincidence or not, '16' for find city screen is interesting.

Monk

	14-03-2003 11:51									#205
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

quote: Originally posted by solo I don't think players should have to feel any stress in order to finish their games in time, and have decided to extend the deadline for the first game until Sunday, March 16th, since I know there are others who might have preferred more time, too. Let's see, over 20 downloads of the start and only a handful of logs posted so far.

The 16th is approaching fast. What happens when we reach the deadline? Are you planning any commentary on the various logs? How about a comparison table? (I guess that would be a log table ) Are there any thoughts on a second game?

RJM at Sleepers

	14-03-2003 12:11									#206
	Full PM-box? Change here!

Is anyone still playing or planning to post a log and save??

Monk

	14-03-2003 18:38									#207
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On the 16th I plan to post a table summarizing the results for this game.

It could be that everyone planning to post a log for this game has already done so, and since I know that some are anxious to start playing the next game I might as well start a thread for it today along with the start.

	17-03-2003 05:36									#208
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Here's the table summarizing this game. Thanks to all who participated.

Attachment: chart.jpg
This has been downloaded 58 time(s).

	18-03-2003 04:05									#209
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Solo,

Thanks for that marvelous table!!

Looking over the comparisons, I think SG(2) is most likely to catch up with you. His start is blisteringly fast; and when he picks out the way through the middle, he will improve his landing time very quickly, I think.

It was a very good first game for us.

Monk

	18-03-2003 05:40									#210
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... and The Monk was very close to The Master
Hat down