18-03-2003 06:10									#211
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just curious why you didn't include rjm@sleepers on the list? not enough dates listed? He got about 1/2 them, in his abreviated log

	18-03-2003 06:41									#212
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SCG,

I think rjmatsleepers log was of a game that was replayed, which would be the reason for not including the game in the comparison table. If I'm wrong about this, my apologies and I will add him in.

Monk,

SG(2) does get off to quick starts, but don't worry, I'm watching out for him and for you, in this game!

	18-03-2003 07:19									#213
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ah, you're right, it was a restart - maybe I just wanted to show i landed before someone

	18-03-2003 10:22									#214
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quote: Originally posted by SCG ah, you're right, it was a restart - maybe I just wanted to show i landed before someone

SCG,

I think you can be secure that there were many who failed so badly that they did not report in. You did fine and will do fine again.

I hope that others will give this style of play a shot; and, no matter the result, will discuss their results. We all learn from such sharing.

Monk

	18-03-2003 11:56									#215
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quote: Originally posted by SCG ah, you're right, it was a restart - maybe I just wanted to show i landed before someone

Even worse, it was a second restart after reading some very instructive logs. I hope to do better in the current game but I'm already in 1620 so I'm not going to challenge the experts.

RJM at Sleepers

	18-03-2003 13:22									#216
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quote: Originally posted by Bloody Monk I think you can be secure that there were many who failed so badly that they did not report in.

There were also several who reported ' ' and didn't post final results... Do you think they landed early ?

	18-03-2003 18:29									#217
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OK I'm in for #2. The table is very instructive and shows some differing theories on how to build a science empire. Solo seems to rock bigtime once he gets to Democracy, but Monk's game is pretty tight too. It looks like Monk lost the brass ring by building Leonardo's, but the Happiness wonders seem to have been useful, right?

	18-03-2003 19:11									#218
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Grigor,

Yes, I agree. I notice something new in every game, especially when comparing the success of varying approaches.

Of course everyone who tries a game or two using these starts is welcome to post logs and share their experiences.

Players afraid of looking stupid can follow the leader in that department, since I keep finding new stupid mistakes to make in every game. Often I revisit previous stupid mistakes.

In this game, I didn't want to wait for Writing and diplomats, so sent a brave Zulu warrior out to explore first thing. Later on, and on the turn before switching to Republic, I built a trireme in the city supporting that warrior! Stupid enough?

I ended up having to disband that warrior, and diplomats I sent in his direction later kept being expelled while trying to run westward past Spanish cities! By sharing maps and by a request for a war alliance, the Spanish have allowed me to find out that there are Germans and Chinese running around where I can't be bothered to go looking. I'm sure this has cost me opportunities for tech trades, since I ended up having to research Warrior Code, something I never thought I would ever want to do in an early landing game!

So there are plenty of stupid mistakes out there waiting. It's just a matter of playing the game enough times to find them all.

	18-03-2003 19:20									#219
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Just a slight nit-pick -- in the OCC tables it was customary to include any logs - even those of the failures (such as mine)

Will try harder - * he says while busy scrubbing The Institute's floor *

SG[1]

	19-03-2003 03:26									#220
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quote: Originally posted by Bloody Monk Is anyone still playing or planning to post a log and save??

(hand waving)
Late as usual.
I started this one earlier, then got interested in Smash's Size1 OCC...

Here are my vital stats as of last night:

Monarchy: 2250BC (how did you do it in 2300, Monk?)
Trade: 1250BC
MarcoPolo: 750BC (Barb attack postponed it about 4 turns)
HangGardens: 575BC
Colossus: 375BC
Copernicus: 1AD
Shakespeare: 140AD
KingRich: 320AD
Republic: 380AD
ROME size 8: 460AD
ROME size 12: 540AD
Newtons: 620AD (another extended Barb problem)
ROME size 20: 700AD
ROME size 23: 760AD
Democracy: 780AD

I am now at 900AD with 8 cities, 40 techs, peace reigns and I am building and delivering caravans like mad. Going to make a colony on Aztecland (in the NE rivers for double trades). Don't think I am a threat to anyones records.

My strategy was Monarchy, then Trade, then build and exploit Marco Polo. I wanted to see how "tech slavery" could work against the Early Republic strategy. I think I could have been about 4-6 turns ahead had it not been for several Barb attacks, although I did appreciate the Leader ransoms (the last one had no Leader - does that happen when you only give them one tile to land on?). I was also planning to extend Monarchy for settler work and building caravans, but probably overdid that. I keep an excruciatingly detailed log which I will not post. I should finish up sometime this weekend.

	19-03-2003 04:25									#221
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Elephant,

You have a nice game going here and I hope you will join us for game 2, which started officially, Sunday. Here are some ideas for your consideration...

1) I was able to get Monarchy one turn earlier by sacrificing shields for arrows, and by founding on rivers for the extra arrow.

2) Get the roads down, a bit of irrigation around the SSC, and build temples all around. Then, and ASAP, get to Republic after Trade. The extra bonus value of deliveries in Republic speeds research. This kind of game is about squeezing Time.

3) I would be interested in hearing how MPE & King Richard helped. It is always a trade-off, deciding whether or not to build particular Wonders. I would have thought that King Richard expires too soon. What did you find??

4) Try to get some offshore colonies going sooner. One or two extra trades back to the SSC can make a huge difference.

5) Consider making Shake's, built in the SSC, a higher priority. And then do everything to speed it's growth to max size. Over half of my science came from the SSC.

Monk

	19-03-2003 04:36									#222
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I read logs of others, I started to study the techtree ... and I found out there is a lot of things that I have to learn before a succesfull landing game, not only commodity unblocking techniques.
So I deserted to Gotm 26 to Civfanatics.
But I don't abandon the early landings games... Maybe I could play the start a let somebody else to finish the game

	19-03-2003 05:34									#223
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Welcome back, Elephant!

Sorry you missed the deadline, but there's no reason why you can not post your log after the game ends.

The second game is underway if you'd care to join in.

	19-03-2003 17:40									#224
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Save/reload is cheat?

	19-03-2003 20:19									#225
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quote: Originally posted by SlowThinker Maybe I could play the start a let somebody else to finish the game

OK ST,
You start and I play on.
How many turns are you going to play?
How many days? ...weeks? ...months?

	19-03-2003 22:37									#226
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quote: Originally posted by Bloody Monk Elephant, 1) I was able to get Monarchy one turn earlier by sacrificing shields for arrows, and by founding on rivers for the extra arrow.

Ah, my mistake. I thought we were supposed to post when we SWITCHED to the government, not when we DISCOVERED the government. I discovered Monarchy 2400BC, and Republic 800BC.

quote: 2) Get the roads down, a bit of irrigation around the SSC, and build temples all around. Then, and ASAP, get to Republic after Trade. The extra bonus value of deliveries in Republic speeds research. This kind of game is about squeezing Time.

I realize the benefit of switching to Republic early, but I decided to put it off because it vastly decreases my shield production with supported units, and doubles the food cost of my many settlers working on the local terrain. Most of my cities are making only 3-5 shields, and Raging Hordes caused several disruptive Barb attacks that required defenders, so switching to Republic early would take out 2-3 of those shields when I am trying to crank out caravans to get Colossus/Shakes/Copes early.

quote: 3) I would be interested in hearing how MPE & King Richard helped. It is always a trade-off, deciding whether or not to build particular Wonders. I would have thought that King Richard expires too soon. What did you find??

I had only contacted one other civ before getting MarcoPolo, and was having difficulty keeping them (Mongols) content with tech gifts. MarcoPolo gave me instant contact with all the other civs, and some careful tech gifting gave me several more techs to pacify the Mongols with. I also got the Intelligence screens, and was able to gather extra techs to get every civ to give me their maps, which helped me find trading cities much sooner. I figured 200 shields into an early MarcoPolo would more than pay for itself in techs and maps, and getting earlier contact with off-continent civs might help me get alliances going before they started fighting among each other and demanding I betray one to ally with another. That had been my frustration in some of the OCC games I have played lately (including Smash's Size1 OCC). It did not play out as intended, probably because I was Supreme and others "did not want to become slaves of the decadent Rome". I did get in contact with the Chinese a lot earlier than my wandering Warrior could have been face-to-face, and that led to several tribute gifts that helped at critical times. Again, staying in Monarchy allowed tribute where I would not have gotten anything from Republic. I do see your argument about getting bigger caravan bonuses, but most of my caravans were going into wonders at the time. I ran one to Karakorum early from the SSC, but was hoping the Mongols would switch to Republic before I got the others in. As it was, I found Karak kept resetting its demands and so ran about a dozen caravans down there after Republic and did fairly well. I also had a city on the bottleneck that seemed to fulfill the "critical path" road to increase the bonus.

As for KingRich, I discovered a benefit in building it as early as possible in the SSC when there was a lot of ocean around (one of the GOTMs at CivFanatics last year was a two-tile island). It gave the maxed-SSC a production of 30+ shields much earlier than Industrialization and Offshore platforms, allowing me to pop out caravans in two turns after noting an unblocking (I was trying to check every turn but sometimes forgot) as well as greatly decreasing the cost of city improvements, saving gold for other resource-starved cities. Gold was my most critical shortage in the early-mid game (1AD-500AD), so I felt this was a big help.

quote: 4) Try to get some offshore colonies going sooner. One or two extra trades back to the SSC can make a huge difference.

I noted this strategy but did not take advantage of it early enough in my first game. I left off on building ships because of having MarcoPolo early, and when I finally switched to Republic the ships cost me critical shields. I did not study and develop my terrain wisely enough in this period. When I finally switched to Democracy I had not calculated on the double-red my caravels were going to cause and had to up Luxuries 20% to cover me until I could build Galleons. I don't remember hitting this problem in the past but this is my first real Early Landing attempt.

quote: 5) Consider making Shake's, built in the SSC, a higher priority. And then do everything to speed it's growth to max size. Over half of my science came from the SSC.

I am aware of OCC strategies but had decided to put off Shakes a bit to try exploiting Monarchy longer. Hanging Gardens gave me a celebrating SSC, which was size 4 at the time, heading to 5. Fast SSC growth requires a celebrating Republic, which I was not ready to switch to yet (discovered 800BC, switched 380AD). I also did not yet have Seafaring (for Harbor) or Sanitation, and I prioritized other city improvements above Aquaducts for my limited RushBuying gold. I am rethinking some of these strategies for the next go, but I was not unhappy with the way things went. The biggest monkey wrench in the plans were Barb attacks at critical times.

	19-03-2003 22:53									#227
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Elephant,

I discovered the Monarchy tech in 2300 and "got" an instant revolution to Monarchy. According to Solo and others, an instant revolution involves no loss of production, and therefore, it is as if the date for Monarchy was 2300. You say to-ma-to, I say tom-a-to. I didn't mean to confuse.

Monk

	19-03-2003 22:57									#228
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Ah, I see. I should work on timing the government discoveries better. See my message above; I edited it (had to leave the PC while writing) while you were posting yours.

	19-03-2003 22:59									#229
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Elephant,

I understand the benifit of and agree that MPE was very useful, especially that early. I was wondering more about King Richard and how useful it was relative to its cost and useful life. In hindsight, what was your experience with this Wonder??

Monk

	19-03-2003 23:21									#230
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More than half of the SSC tiles were ocean, and I left the two unshielded grass tiles alone as well, so I was not getting many shields from my SSC, even when maxed. KingRich cost me six caravans at a time when I was pumping them out pretty smoothly (just before switching to Republic), and then maxing the city gave me over 30 shields per turn. I delayed Industrialization just a bit to squeeze out a few more caravans, then tried to get to Miniaturization quickly to recoup. I think it was worth it, particularly as money was tight at the time and shield production low. I will probably try it again if the SSC has more than half ocean tiles.

	20-03-2003 01:36									#231
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Elephant,

It is very interesting and informative to play these comparisons and learn from the point of view of others. Your strategic thinking re: KingRich is different, emphasing arrows by indirection thru shield power. If built early enough to counter the short shelf life, it is a way to deal with early shortages in these games. I am unable to grasp the full extent of the implications/opportunity costs involved; someone like Solo, with a deeper vision and understanding than me, will have to comment on that aspect.

Thanks for your explanation.

Monk

	20-03-2003 02:23									#232
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This thread, done by Starlifter on Pollution, had several helpful comments about getting KingRich early that I have taken to heart:

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showt...s=&threadid=765

Of course, the proof is in the pudding, and my weak Early Landing skills do not make for good comparison. Worth a try, I would say, in the right circumstances, which I would judge to be an SSC with more than half ocean tiles or unshielded grass. Timing of getting Eng makes a difference too, but it is going to be early to get San in time for SSC growth anyway.

	20-03-2003 03:31									#233
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La Fayette, OK. I could play relatively fast, but I am in GOTM... I think I will interrupt it.

	20-03-2003 03:51									#234
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quote: Originally posted by SlowThinker La Fayette, OK. I could play relatively fast, but I am in GOTM... I think I will interrupt it.

Please, play what you have most fun with!
I finished GOTM26 long ago and I am going to play this 'early landing #2' from the start on my own account.
But I am willing to play after you to get your game finished if you happen to run short of time.

	20-03-2003 04:27									#235
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quote: Originally posted by Elephant I delayed Industrialization just a bit to squeeze out a few more caravans, then tried to get to Miniaturization quickly to recoup.

Elephant ... I honestly believe KRC to be a complete waste of 6 caravans. Delaying Industrialisation is a not a good plan because you must minimise the Railroad Trade Gap by reaching Corporation as quickly as possible. This requires Industrialisation. Going for Miniaturisation takes you off the Automobile path which is vital for 1 or more techs per turn.

---------------

SG(2)

	20-03-2003 20:38									#236
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KRC might be an option in an OCC game, but for earrly landings...

	20-03-2003 22:03									#237
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i think that BLIND START at begind better big maps,but cam to worsed smallers... and think it is giwe better start.but are giwe BETTER FUTURE and ealier landing ?

Which are you opinion yous SS?

I make it soo big i can... but it is easy maybe let it smaler?

	09-04-2003 06:13									#238
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Ok, I said I'd play these games when I got time, and guess what?

It is holidays, so no students. My girlfriend is in Europe, and I can't do much more on my current piece of research until some data arrives.

So basically it's prime gaming time.

This week I will play the 2 games I am in arrears, if all goes well at least.

First game I played to 1AD today.......Shakespeare's has just been built and wltkd'ing has commenced. I just got 400 gold for a juicy caravan

I hope people haven't forgotten about this game, even though I didn't play in time. I wont keep a log because I want to really get through the turns, but saves aplenty will be kept so you can all laugh after.

	09-04-2003 06:30									#239
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That's the Spirit!! Go for it; the more the merrier.

If you post the summary with some comments on what you did and why, or what surprised you, or whatever, I'm sure other folk will join at the 19th hole, and raise a glass with you.

Monk

	09-04-2003 21:46									#240
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Well I played to 680 AD so far today......I may be able to finish it later. It looks to be a reasonable time [researching (2 turns a pop) steam engine now], but no chance of pulling off something overly impressive, since I screwed up a few things.