21-02-2003 18:43									#31
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Sitting on my packed bags, I second that.

	21-02-2003 18:52									#32
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quote: Originally posted by Dominae vondrack, have your or any of the consuls acutally worked through the scenarios as I have? I assume not, since my previous post clearly shows that researching Pottery second puts us behind. Also, switching now loses us 3 Beakers, hardly anything to get worked up about. I hate to sound so prescriptive, but unless anyone else has "done the math", I believe my analysis should be taken as the authority here.

See the "BFM's Analysis of the Interior" thread, please. Be so kind and comment there. The results are somewhat inconclusive for me.

	21-02-2003 18:56									#33
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Sorry, I missed that thread/post. I'll check it out later.


Dominae

	21-02-2003 18:57									#34
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Inconclusive?!? Thats the word of the day!!!


i have the same sentiment. Alot here relies on gambling thoughts, or uncertain chances. Too many variables for me to conclude now.

	21-02-2003 19:05									#35
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Are there screenies of the location and the city?

	22-02-2003 05:32									#36
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quote: Originally posted by vondrack 2. continue building a Warrior, delaying its completion to Turn 6 (see "3.") The reason is to have no military while popping the hut with our worker on Turn 5. This is currently believed to guarantee we will get no angry barbarians out of the hut. It would be great if someone verifies that having no military is all we need to guarantee that (and that it does not matter if someone else on our landmass has some sort of a military).

well... I'm not going to test it, but I'm quite sure that if some other military unit is present on the same continent, you will be able to get barbs.

DeepO

	22-02-2003 06:14									#37
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quote: Originally posted by DeepO well... I'm not going to test it, but I'm quite sure that if some other military unit is present on the same continent, you will be able to get barbs.

well... sigh... I eventually tested it, as everybody else just pointed out the possibility, making it clear he would not (have time to) test it... The save attached is a game I started as a hotseat game, making sure that there is at least one other non-Babylon military unit (that German Warrior right next to Babylon) on the same landmass. If you load it up (as single player) and:

1) move the Worker immediately N - you pop angry Harappan Warriors
2) disband your Warrior first, pop the same hut only then - you get money

Assuming disbanding units does not affect RNG, which seems quite reasonable, this should be a solid evidence that what matters is YOUR military. If you have none, you never get barbs, no matter whether other civs on the same landmass have or do not have military units there.

Note: save keeps the random seed, of course.

GoodyHutPopTest3.SAV

BTW, I would appreciate if someone tries the test using the save, confirming my finding.

	22-02-2003 06:43									#38
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I just ran my own independent test (80 or so trials), and got the same results as vondrack: if you have no military units, you will not get Barbs when you pop a hut, independent of the other civs. This is good for us.

Also, I'm 90% convinced that when you get a tech it selects among the cheapest that are not currently being researched. This means that if we switch to Pottery, we can expect to get Ceremonial Burial if we do in fact get a tech. This is not an argument for continuing with Bronze Working, just an observation.


Dominae

	22-02-2003 06:47									#39
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If that's the case, then I think continuing BW may be best. If we do get Pottery from the hut, then great. If not, we may need to switch. While not ideal, getting Pottery early on is a priority, and getting CB instead would be a fairly uncool hit.

	22-02-2003 06:52									#40
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Trip, getting Ceremonial Burial for free would still be a bonus. If we wait to switch to Pottery until after we pop the Hut, we will waste 12 Beakers. That's not nothing. We're still going to need Ceremonial Burial eventually, and it's a nice bargaining chip for early trades. In any case, the chances we get a tech are slim...we're basically betting 9 to 1 that we're going to lose our 12 Beakers...what's the point?


Dominae

	22-02-2003 06:57									#41
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That's true. However, Ceremonial Burial (like you said, in the case that we get ANY tech) isn't a priority right now... we don't need temples, and we may be on an island by ourselves (unlikely, but possible), which would make it useless for even trading.

Do the beakers for research stay or not? I know how it is in Civ 2, but I forget in Civ 3, as I've never needed to know. If the research is literally wasted, then switching would probably be a bad move, but if we can later go back and continue where we left off, then I see no problem in switching from BW to Pottery, then back again once we've finished Pottery.

	22-02-2003 06:57									#42
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I noticed we are 100% research... should we pull back to the minimum in the interim?

	22-02-2003 07:05									#43
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Thanks for testing the barb - warrior relation, guys! So I was wrong...

DeepO

	22-02-2003 07:16									#44
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Trip, if you switch research projects midway, you lose all accumulated Beakers. Bummer, but that's what Firaxis gave us.

Theseus, we could delay our research a bit, but not completely since we will need Pottery pretty quick to finish our Granary. Anyway, we're doing quite poor research-wise (no fresh water), so I think 100% research is the way to go.


Dominae

	22-02-2003 09:01									#45
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I'm not sure when our turn is coming up, so I'll assume it's soon. Here are my comments concerning the current "next turn" plan:

1. Worker begins roading Game Forest: fine

2. Delay Warrior to turn 6: fine.

3. Continue researching Bronze Working: bad idea.

I've outlined why I think this is so elsewhere. But let me ask everyone a question: do we plan to build any Mercs in the near-future (i.e. before a Granary)? If not, why are we placing Bronze Working before Pottery, if we're actually going to use the second tech first? We lose absolutely nothing by research Bronze Working second; we lose a great deal by not prioritizing Pottery.

That's my two cents. I'll leave this issue alone now.


Dominae

	22-02-2003 20:08									#46
	Turns 3-5 Support Apolyton

Turn 3 (3900BC)

1. Hit Enter.

Turn 4 (3850BC)

1. set Apolyton to work the game forest
Our worker will finish roading the game forest tile on this turn, thus allowing us to make 1 extra gold if working this tile. As the warrior will not be completed until Turn 6 even if working the game forest, we can safely work the tile, grabbing the extra gold.

Turn 5 (3800BC)

1. move the worker East, popping the hut
As confirmed by several testers (myself included), having no military units of one's own, it is perfectly safe to pop a goody hut with a non-combat unit, as we will in no case disturb angry barbarian warriors.

Note: I will post a detailed schedule based upon Dominae's ultra-early granary scenario corrected according to BFM's findings later today or tomorrow.

	22-02-2003 22:55									#47
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Turn 3 should be very non-controversal.

	22-02-2003 22:58									#48
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Not sure if this is the right place to post this, but here goes.

After a nice chat with E_T and nbarclay yesterday, I believe we've found an even better early-game queue. This new one allows us to have our cake, eat it, go to the store to buy another one, and eat that one on the way home.

I'll present a distilled version, then the full queue.

Turn 6: Warrior #1
Turn 10: Warrior #2
Turn 13: Warrior #3
Turn 15: Discover Pottery
Turn 24: Granary
Turn 28: Settler #1
Turn 30: Warrior #4, discover Bronze Working

Basically we get the safety of 3 early Warriors instead of only 2, with only a short lag in expansion (Settler production). Note that, depending on the situation at turn 28, we may not need that fourth Warrior, and we can start on another Settler right away.

Ok, here's the queue:

1 Settler founds city; Worker moves onto Game Forest; begin Bronze Working
2 Warrior 3S (Game Forest); Worker begins Road; switch to Pottery
3 Warrior 4S (normal Grassland)
4 Warrior 5S (normal Grassland)
5 Warrior 8S (roaded Game Forest); Worker done Road, move onto Hut (assume map)
6 Warrior #1 done (roaded Game Forest), begin another; Worker begin Mine
7 Warrior 3S
8 Warrior 6S
9 Warrior 9S; Worker done Mine, begin Road
10 Warrior #2 done, begin another
11 Warrior 4S; capital size 2, borders expand; Worker done Road, move to Game Forest and begin Clear Forest
12 Warrior 9S
13 Warrior #3 done, begin Barracks
14 Barracks 5S
15 Barracks 10S, switch to Granary; Pottery discovered, begin Bronze Working
16 Granary 23S; Worker done chop, begin Mine
17 Granary 26S;
18 Granary 29S;
19 Granary 35S; capital size 3, move new laborer to Bonus Grassland; Worker done Mine, move to Bonus Grassland
20 Granary 40S; Worker begin Mine
21 Granary 45S
22 Granary 50S
23 Granary 56S; Worker done Mine, begin Road
24 Granary done, begin Settler
25 Settler 6S; Worker done Road, move to Bonus Grassland
26 Settler 14S; capital size 4, leave new laborer on Forest; Worker begins Mine
27 Settler 22S
28 Settler done, begin Warrior; capital size 2
29 Warrior 4S; city #2 founded
30 Warrior #4 done, begin Settler; capital size 3; Bronze Working discovered

The difference between this queue and the one I presented earlier is that this one takes advantage of the road on the Game Forest in order to get a chop done sooner. Additionally, the choppped Game gives us a 3 Food tile, which helps us grow and make catch up in Shields.

I think that all but the most bloodthirsty or paranoid players here will agree that 3 Warriors then a Granary is a good compromise. Note that would could conceivably get a Warrior from the Hut, which would change things a bit, but essentially put us ahead of schedule.

Finally, something unexpected: I got Warrior Code when I popped the Hut! I was researching Pottery at the time, and I did not get Ceremonial Burial.

Questions/Comments appreciated.


Dominae

Last edited by Dominae on 22-02-2003 at 23:05

	22-02-2003 23:48									#49
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I made Scenario 7 out of Dominae's numbers.

Dominae - see the other thread to discuss, please! And check out the numbers in Scenario 6 - that one might still be faster (though with 2 warriors only).

Do you have a Civ-scenario file simulation that you can send me?

	22-02-2003 23:58									#50
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BFM, your scenario 6 is the one I was proposing in the last couple of days. It is definitely faster, but I believe the team did not want to gamble with having only 2 before the Granary. The new scenario 7 gets 3 Warriors, and can potentially get the same number of Settlers (specifically, 2) out on turn 33, assuming we forego the fourth Warrior.

I'm still confused at to which threads to go to to post! Rest assured that I'm reading everything even slightly related to economic concerns.

PM me your email and I'll send you my test scenario. It will of course have to be changed once we hit the Hut or get our first Warrior, but it should be good enough for the first 30 turns.


Dominae

	23-02-2003 02:28									#51
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quote: Originally posted by Dominae BFM, your scenario 6 is the one I was proposing in the last couple of days. It is definitely faster, but I believe the team did not want to gamble with having only 2 before the Granary. The new scenario 7 gets 3 Warriors, and can potentially get the same number of Settlers (specifically, 2) out on turn 33, assuming we forego the fourth Warrior. Dominae

Yes, we definatley need some more at home defense, just in case. Yes, we could grow faster if we didn't build any warriors but what good would that do if our city was captured? With 3 Wariors, I say leave 2 at home and explore with the third. It should go like this; build first one, fortify at home, build second and go explore, build third and fortify. If we build the fourth after the settelr is built we should not send the settler out alone unless our scout is, for some reason, near our Capitol in order to provide an escort for the settler. With that being said, it makes more sense to build the fourth Warrior BEFORE the Settler, as we would obtain more resources due to city size. I don't have a spread sheet for this, but it is easy enough to see.

	23-02-2003 02:32									#52
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bigfree1, I think the decision of whether or not to go with Settler #2 or Warrior #4 first will depend on what our exploration turns up. If we discover we're in a position of relative safety, I think we should go for the Settler first, as expansion is key to economic strength. On the other hand, if there are Barbs or other teams roaming around, safety requires we do the Warrior.


Dominae

	23-02-2003 02:46									#53
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quote: Originally posted by Dominae bigfree1, I think the decision of whether or not to go with Settler #2 or Warrior #4 first will depend on what our exploration turns up. If we discover we're in a position of relative safety, I think we should go for the Settler first, as expansion is key to economic strength. On the other hand, if there are Barbs or other teams roaming around, safety requires we do the Warrior. Dominae

There is no other way to deterimine if it is 'safe' to send out the settler unless our Warrior scout is in the area in which we intend to send him. Otherwise it is indeed a gamble no matter how reasonable that gamble is. If the area is in a fog then it is a gamble plain and simple; a gamble we should not take so early on.

BTW, I 'eat up' un-escorted settlers all of the time in MP play, people never seem to learn.

	24-02-2003 00:04									#54
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For now: Just REX.
(I will say this only once, so you tell the other guys)


Expansion is the key to everything now. The other team are probably understood with this, thus REXing, and they won't send all the warriors at us right now. However, prepare for the unexpected!

I did it myself once in the beginning, but then I was babylonians and had bowmen (2.2.1) So I managed to push away my neighbour by threats in the early rounds. Scared him to death by bowmen killing settler-spearmen combos. We got to be friendly traders later on though. A fun game, for me!

	24-02-2003 02:40									#55
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There is no reason to keep the first warrior in our capital. Our second warrior will be built in four more turns and our third two turns after that. Even if another civ was 6 squares away from us (unlikely) they couldn't attempt to attack with their first warrior if they wanted too before we have 2 defenders there. My suggestion:

1st Warrior: scout to West
2nd Warrior: keep in city (for city happiness when city gets to size 3 & defense)
3rd Warrior: Scout briefly to N. then return by time settler is built.

Note: we can send 2nd warrior to N just before 3rd is built and keep that one in city if no other units are near.

	24-02-2003 14:47									#56
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I agree with CiverDan.

Another thing: If building a warrior or something, switch to settler once city reaches size 3. Otherwise we will become smaller and smaller compared to other civs. They are rexing too, I presume.

	24-02-2003 21:40									#57
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Yes, CiverDan brings up good points.

Since our other Warriors will be built so soon after the first one, it is acceptable that we send them scouting as soon as they're completed. The 3rd warrior will likely be the one to stay.

Even if there is someone scouting around, it will likely be a scout (who builds a warrior in 2 turns?), and heading from the north. A scout can't attack, and our warrior will spot him on our first pass northwards.

	25-02-2003 18:06									#58
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Turn 6 (3750BC)

1. Worker to mine.
Part of the plan outlined by the Minister of the Interior in the Ministry of the Interior thread.

2. Warrior to move North (8).
Suggested by the Minister of War in the Ministry of War thread as part of a North-to-West swing. If you have a different suggestion/idea, post your comments here or in the Scouting Priorities thread.

Turn 7 (3700BC)

1. Warrior to move Northwest (7).
see Turn 6 (3750BC) for more

Turn 8 (3650BC)

1. Warrior to move West (4).
see Turn 6 (3750BC) for more

Turn 9 (3650BC)

1. Warrior to move West (4).
2. Worker to road.
see Turn 6 (3750BC) for more

	28-02-2003 04:52									#59
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Is our capital founded on a hill?

	28-02-2003 06:10									#60
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quote: Originally posted by ThePlagueRat Is our capital founded on a hill?

No, regular Grassland.