17-02-2003 19:38									#1
	Next turn plans discussion Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

This is the thread you shall use to post your comments regarding the moves/actions proposed by the Consuls for the next turn here. Sorry for separating the proposal from the discussion, but with so many people involved, it would be difficult to dig for the proposal very soon after it's posted.

If there is a sufficient demand, we may copy the proposal into this thread, too, linking to the copy from the main proposal thread. Actually, thinking about this, I will probably do it right away - it will make responding to the proposal a lot more convenient. You quickly check the last post of the proposal thread, then click the link to jump to this discussion thread, possibly using "reply with a quote" to comment then or read on through the comments already posted. Yes, that's what I am going to do.

I just hope that we will not need too much proposal editing - keeping the two copies in sync might become pain in the neck. Hopefully, our long term plans will be forged well ahead of the actual need.

	17-02-2003 20:00									#2
	Remove this text

Turn 1 (4000BC)

1) start Researching Bronze Working at 100%

note: there is an ongoing discussion in the First Technologies thread. Currently, the decision to go for Bronze Working seems to have an overhelming support. Comment there, please, if you wish.

2) in case our capitol is founded on Turn 1, start building a Warrior there


As for the rest of our agenda for the first turn, things will be organized a little bit different from what you can expect for future turns. Considering the importance of the first turn and the "absolute unexpectedness" of our starting position, we will use a good deal of our 24 hour window to analyze the starting position and let everybody have a say. Things should happen like this:

1. As soon after receiving the save from the previous team as possible, a screenshot of our starting location will be posted in a new thread in the IS-DG forum, allowing everybody to comment there.

2. A password protected chatroom will be created, with the password being posted along with the screenshot.

3. The let's-make-our-final-decision chat will be scheduled to start at a time acceptable for both Europeans and people over the Big Pool (like 6pm-9pm GMT?). Feel free to express your opinion regarding the precise time, please.

4. The Consuls (or at least some/one of them) will be listening in the chatroom all the time, even if not actively participating in the discussion, later reading and sorting through the opinions.

5. Shortly before (like 30 minutes) the opening of the final decision-taking turnchat, a summary will be posted in the forum thread by Consuls, summing up the proposed plans. Hopefully, we would then be able to quickly find out in the chat, which one has the most support (everybody refraining from further arguments, just expressing their support to one of the proposals).

	17-02-2003 22:24									#3
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Will there be a place that the save can be downloaded from?? We have a member of the RP team, who has the save available to be downloaded for general distribution. It's better than having to forward it to a dozen or more people.

E_T

	17-02-2003 22:29									#4
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quote: Originally posted by E_T Will there be a place that the save can be downloaded from?? We have a member of the RP team, who has the save available to be downloaded for general distribution. It's better than having to forward it to a dozen or more people. E_T

I have ask this and many related questions in the Information Distribution thread.

	18-02-2003 06:02									#5
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I am of the great opinion that the capital should be built first turn, no matter location.

That is, unless there is a benefit immensely beyond turning down

	18-02-2003 07:49									#6
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quote: Originally posted by Ninot I am of the great opinion that the capital should be built first turn, no matter location. That is, unless there is a benefit immensely beyond turning down

I agree. Usually the start location is on a river or at least near water allowing for growth to size 12 (without aqueduct). Every one in a while it is advisable to move one tile or two in order to reap the benefits of a tile of cattle or game. Or sometimes there's no other benefit except putting the capitol on a hill, which is still good enough reason to delay.

	18-02-2003 08:28									#7
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I have noticed that starting location in multiplayer games tend to be of significantly higher quality (on average) than starting positions in single-player games.

Has anyone else noticed this?

	18-02-2003 09:14									#8
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I think that the capital shoud be built in the start position unless there is overwhelming and obvious evidence that there is a better site on a neighbouring square.

I also support Bronze Working considering it will give us the Num. Merc. and thus relative defensive supremacy during the rest of the Ancient era. (and woe to he who dares attack us and trigger a GA )

	18-02-2003 09:16									#9
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quote: Originally posted by Arnelos I have noticed that starting location in multiplayer games tend to be of significantly higher quality (on average) than starting positions in single-player games. Has anyone else noticed this?

I have; the start location in SP will be better at the lower levels and inverse at higher levels. I'm guessing the game ranks the start locations (locations that meet certain criteria) and then orders them according to the game difficulty settings. At least this is what I've been able to deduce. In MP the random map generated are more 'generous' than in SP since all civ's are considered equal (unless you included computer players, ugh!).

	18-02-2003 12:18									#10
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quote: Originally posted by Arnelos I have noticed that starting location in multiplayer games tend to be of significantly higher quality (on average) than starting positions in single-player games. Has anyone else noticed this?

In one of the GS PBEM games notyoueither started on an medium-sized island that was about 90% jungle. He didn't settle for about 30 turns or something. It was almost as bad a start as Aeson's famous "So very cold" game.

	18-02-2003 12:23									#11
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Come on FP, be honest!

It was 90% jungle and 9% mountain.

There was a lake, and i eventually found 3 tiles of grassland and 5 of hills.

	18-02-2003 12:49									#12
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I've noticed the MP either gives you a very cushy start position, or an absolutely terrible one. In a recent hotseat game, 2 of the three players started in lush, fertile river valleys with cattle and game forests abounds. The third player started on a 10x10 tundra/mountain island with 2 single grassland squares. Needless to say, that was pretty crippling for the rest of the game.

Just an example.

	18-02-2003 12:53									#13
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quote: Originally posted by Master Zen I think that the capital shoud be built in the start position unless there is overwhelming and obvious evidence that there is a better site on a neighbouring square.

That's the idea. There's a reason why we decided to stop being nomads after all.

	18-02-2003 13:21									#14
	Increase Your PM Length

I wonder if there's a weird cosmic connection between the founder of a PTW Team and his starting position in an internal pbem game being on a small jungle island.

In Game #2 (of 3) of the RP Team internal pbem games, Togas started as Arabia on a small jungle island. I just got a map of it last turn and can report that it's not ALL jungle (he has some grassland near his capital and even a mountain with iron!), but most of it is jungle.

Too bad he started as an expansionist civ

We should seriously consider the possibility that we could get screwed over in this manner in the ISDG, though in defense of being so "screwed over", it hasn't been debilitating for Togas

Togas is now playing the "wild card" to the other 3 civs which are in something of an arms race on the same continent with each other while Ninot has more land, cities, and especially culture than any of the rest of us (more culture than all the rest of us put together and the only one with any spare territory left to found cities on).

So a lot depends on starting location, I agree. But from what I've seen, the guy on the jungle island (from multiple games) is not entirely out. If he can get contact with Map Making and make contact with at least 2 civs (to play them off of one another), he can typically get most of the technology he's missing fairly cheap and work to catch up while playing a "Terminus and the Four Kingdoms" strategy to protect his island while he's catching up in military and technology.

Jungle island starts hurt, but they're not so debilitating that the game is over from the first turn (though in the competitive ISDG, it could be different...).

	18-02-2003 21:16									#15
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Of note, the game I just started on the Emperor level has got to be one of the harshest conditions ever:

On a Tiny archepello map with mostly water as Greece.

No luxary resources on the entire map!
No rivers on the entire map either.

One lake tile on the entire map.

There were 6 large land masses, and another 3 or 4 smaller ones. Ironcially, the largest 2 land masses are the ones nobody started on.

Consequently, I decided to switch to Monarchy as soon as possible and skip the Republic entirelly. I also decided to make this game a One Island challenge and just went overseas to collect the goody huts. I crammed 6 cities into this landmass, (just large enough for a FP on tiny maps) and built the FP on the city furthest away from the Palace.

I found that my citizens are happier as a Monarchy when I'm at war that when I'm at peace with everybody. (It looks like I get the equivlent of 10% luxaries for free when at war.)

Currently, the tech standings are:

#1 Babs. Started with the only inland lake tile, mostly grassland with a couple of hills. They currently have Democracy, Navigation, and Printing Press.

#2 Me. My island features mostly grassland, a few hills, a couple of plains tiles and one 1 mountain tile. I have a monopoly on Military Tradition which I'll keep because the Babs want Milterary Tradition + 60 GPT for all the above techs. (Mod: every middle age tech except Military Tradition is required to advance, Printing Press + Music Theory are the prereqs to Free Artistry.) I have now redirected my research pattern to techs already owned by the AI.

#3 Persians. They started on an island that's a mixture of grassland and tundra. They are missing Banking & Metalurgy and just declared war on me when I refused to give them Banking for free. (Investigation showed the Persians to be completely broke.)

#4 Romans: They started on the neighboring island to me that has a lot of jungle & mountain tiles, very little grassland that wasn't initally covered up by jungle. They are missing Banking and Chemistry. They were missing Astronemy is well until I bribed them to attack the Persians in response.

Nobody is going to win this game via the UN; everybody has been at war with everybody else at least once.

	19-02-2003 01:53									#16
	Got spare money?

quote: Originally posted by notyoueither There was a lake, and i eventually found 3 tiles of grassland and 5 of hills.

That's enough to build a civ, or at least enough to govern a village until the Space Age.
You considered it a fair challenge I presume?

	19-02-2003 02:04									#17
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I also agree with the idea of founding the capital the first turn unless one of the neighbouring tiles really makes a very big difference.

	19-02-2003 02:48									#18
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Just walk the startup worker out to somewhere.
(take the high ground) And if it is better there, follow with the settler and found the capital on the next turn. (preferrably on a hill)

Basically I agree... We can just cross our fingers, and hope we see a river and some hills on the first turn. or some other goody stuff.

	19-02-2003 03:06									#19
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Just don't build a capital that's seperated by the ocean or fresh water access by one tile.

	19-02-2003 03:21									#20
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We have to consider the possibility that we'll get really screwed over. One game, I started on a 10 tile island that was nearly all jungle with 1 mountain and 2 hill tiles. Boy, that was an exciting game.

	19-02-2003 04:08									#21
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Perhaps a situation in which temp cities should be founded and instantly abandoded?

(For instant jungle clearing?)

	20-02-2003 02:47									#22
	Put an end to popups!

Sorry for being ignorant (I just got here!), but we've yet to play our first turn, right? Assuming so:

Will there be time for review/discussion after we see the start location, or will the player just go ahead with what's been said so far? I'm asking because the decision to move from the start position is not always obvious. Sure, the game usually puts you close to fresh water, but there are other considerations, like moving off Forest to get the extra 10 Shields, off a Bonus resource to actually get to benefit from it, moving away from a Hut so as not to get shafted by surprise Barbs, etc.


Dominae

	20-02-2003 03:12									#23
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Read the Next turn plans thread, Dominae. There will be a 24 hour delay to analyze the starting position.

	20-02-2003 03:21									#24
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Thanks Tiberius. I really like the 24-hour delay (makes me feel like I'm in on the action!).


Dominae

	20-02-2003 07:11									#25
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Since this is the place to discuss first-turn plans, here's a quick comment:

We should seriously consider going for Pottery instead of Bronze Working first. It all depends on the terrain, but an early Granary could be invaluable. We probably will not be wanting to build Mercs. right away. But we could screw up a Granary prebuild if we go Bronze Working then Pottery.

Just my two cents (which I feel I've posted all over this forum by now...!).


Dominae

	20-02-2003 07:19									#26
	Remove this text

That's a possibility.

	20-02-2003 12:34									#27
	Got spare money?

I agree with Dominae, I think it will be a while before we will actually want to build Mercs, since Warriors and Settlers will take priority during our REX phase. It makes sense to me - especially after seeing our start position - to research Pottery first and Bronze Working second. This will give us the chance of an early granary to give us turbo-boosted REXing and won't slow our production of Mercs by very much, if at all.

	21-02-2003 13:43									#28
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Turns 2, 3, and 4 (3950BC - 3850BC)

Considering the "Turn 2" poll, various discussions and points mentioned in the forum, our current plan for the next three turns is (IMHO - nye, Ninot... feel free to edit your opinions in, please):

1. road the game forest tile
See the Turn 2 Poll thread plus related discussions in several other highly active threads.

2. continue building a Warrior, delaying its completion to Turn 6 (see "3.")
The reason is to have no military while popping the hut with our worker on Turn 5. This is currently believed to guarantee we will get no angry barbarians out of the hut. It would be great if someone verifies that having no military is all we need to guarantee that (and that it does not matter if someone else on our landmass has some sort of a military).

3. work a non-bonus grassland for two turns, switching to working the game forest tile on Turn 4
This is to delay the completion of the Warrior to Turn 6 and to allow for using the game forest tile on Turn 4 when the road will be completed there, thus using the 1 extra gold for research from that tile. The construction of the Warrior will be like this (shields produced): 3+1+1+3=8+3>10.

4. continue researching Bronze Working at full speed
The discussion is going on in several threads, mostly in the First Technologies, A problem with..., and Turn 1 threads. The key point probably is that we shall be able to research both Bronze Working and Pottery prior to actually needing them to finish any builds, so giving up on our first turn research, switching from BW to Pottery would be wasteful now.

	21-02-2003 14:27									#29
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Sounds good to me.

	21-02-2003 18:37									#30
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quote: Originally posted by vondrack Turns 2, 3, and 4 (3950BC - 3850BC) 4. continue researching Bronze Working at full speed The key point probably is that we shall be able to research both Bronze Working and Pottery prior to actually needing them to finish any builds, so giving up on our first turn research, switching from BW to Pottery would be wasteful now.

vondrack, have your or any of the consuls acutally worked through the scenarios as I have? I assume not, since my previous post clearly shows that researching Pottery second puts us behind. Also, switching now loses us 3 Beakers, hardly anything to get worked up about.

I hate to sound so prescriptive, but unless anyone else has "done the math", I believe my analysis should be taken as the authority here.


Dominae