18-02-2003 05:13									#31
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

How exactly am I trolling?

You deny that Bush has a very hawkish rhetoric towards Iraq and North Korea?

You deny that North Korea has a very hawkish rhetoric towards the USA?

	18-02-2003 05:14									#32
	Got spare money?

quote: Originally posted by Sandman This is clearly not insane behaviour from the North Koreans.

I would say it is brinkmanship. "Give me all of the aid I want and let me keep my nukes other wise there will be a war." The problem with the plan is a man like Bush wouldn't give in if he feels he's under the gun so NK will have to make good on his threats or back down. MY guess is he'll back down because China will make him.

	18-02-2003 05:23									#33
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

The problem is that this guy is constantly escallating the rhetoric against the US. If ever the UN and the EU had to step in and say that this is a world matter, it is now.

	18-02-2003 05:29									#34
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

yes we all do need to work together on stopping North Korea but surely we need to work with China as the only one who can really peacefully force North Korea to change.

War is unlikely to happen by non-North Korean forces as it would be extremely blooody indeed. So why, even remotely threaten that? Concentrate efforts on one thing at a time, i.e. Iraq first and then N.Korea not try to deal with both at same time.

	18-02-2003 05:29									#35
	Got spare money?

http://www.megastories.com/nkorea/glossary/war.htm

"It was General Dwight Eisenhower, coming to office as U.S. President in 1953, who forced the pace of negotiations to end the war. First, he settled the rift with the South Koreans by agreeing with President Rhee a mutual defence treaty without pressing the fighting for Korean reunification."




http://www.eisenhowerbirthplace.org/legacy/ike0001.htm
"terms of the Armistice signed in Panmunjom, the two Koreas were separated by a demilitarized zone at the 38th parallel, roughly the same border that existed prior to the war. The war was seen as proof that the United Nations could be counted on to resist aggression and that modem warfare could be conducted without resort to nuclear weapons. Ending the war was also of a personal interest to Eisenhower "




http://ist-socrates.berkeley.edu/~korea/warevents.html

The unexpectant decision of China's entry into the war in early October turned the tide of the war. The Northern units, consisting of Sino-Korean troops, sent the U.N forces retreati ng again. On December 6, the Communist forces retook Pyongyang. And by the end of December, they recrossed the parallel and retook Seoul.

	18-02-2003 05:32									#36
	Suffering from ads?

quote: Originally posted by Ned I think the EU needs to send troops to replace US forces. This guy to the North of the 38th parallel is really crazy and a lot of Americans could end up being killed. It is high time for the Euros to take up some of the burden of policing the world against the insane.

Why should we? They are going to blow up the West Coast, not Europe.

	18-02-2003 05:35									#37
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

quote: Originally posted by DuncanK This should not be another opportunity to Bash America.

Itīs the mother of opportunities.

Chicken come home to roost early, this year.

	18-02-2003 05:37									#38
	Increase Your PM Length

China. Behind a lot of things.

	18-02-2003 05:37									#39
	Increase Your PM Length

Ned,

You can tell that there is a great deal of difference between the way the Europeans and the US believe problems can be solved. The European way is to use straight diplomacy first, and then talk about military action. The US way is to get the troops over there, threaten military action and then talk diplomacy. The US way is undeniably more successfull. That's why we can talk all we want about the Europeans doing something here, but it's not going to happen, and I don't think we should allow this to be handled by the Europeans. It's too important.

	18-02-2003 05:38									#40
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

quote: Originally posted by Provost Harrison What are you on about? It is because of your self-appointed righteousness that half these problems occur. We've had our fill of interference and manipulation, so why should we get in the way of your games?

	18-02-2003 05:39									#41
	Increase the size of your Attachments

quote: Originally posted by Comrade Tribune Why should we? They are going to blow up the West Coast, not Europe.

It's not why you should. It's why you shouldn't. And the answer is because you're chicken.

	18-02-2003 05:41									#42
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

quote: Originally posted by Shi Huangdi You may not like diplomatic insults, but thats not quite the same as threatening to end the armistice and restarting a nuclear program.

You mean the US donīt have any nuclear program?

	18-02-2003 05:42									#43
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

C. Tribune : I believe his commment was directed toward NKorea.

	18-02-2003 05:44									#44
	Remove this text

Even though I find the whole chicken rethoric sickening, I agree with Duncan on one point : the EU has nothing to do there. For a very simple reason : in dealing with this nuclear threat, what we'll need is cohesion and determination. There is no such thing in the EU's foreign policy, since the Member States do approx. what they want, with a barely existing coordination.

South Korea, Japan, China, and the US are the main actors then. Best to listen to the South Koreans, rather than forcing a "solution" from Washington though.

	18-02-2003 05:46									#45
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

quote: Originally posted by Spiffor Did Kim really decide to suicide his country in a big boom or what ? I hope he's a reasonable leader, who just uses hard talk to reinforce his bargaining position, but I can't say I'm sure. The more time passes, the more NK's poistion seems suicidal.

I believe he is a reasonable leader. BUT:

He is clearly not prepared to accept a threat to his countryīs independence. A US buildup *is* such a threat, and, unlike Iraq, NK can do something about it.

I wouldnīt be surprised at all, if he is willing do go down with a 'BOOOM', rather than capitulating.

If the US are half-way reasonable, they will back down.

	18-02-2003 05:46									#46
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

Fact is, it was the Axis of Evil speech and subsequent American actions that spurred North Korea into this.

	18-02-2003 05:48									#47
	Got spare money?

Now they've really fallen off their rocker. Time to head to the East Coast where their nukes can't reach.

	18-02-2003 05:49									#48
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

I think the Axis of Evil speech merely accelerated the process, rather than triggered it (at least, if it's true NK never stopped its nuclear program).
My guess would be Kim wants to win the Korean unification, despite the dreadful economic situation.

	18-02-2003 05:51									#49
	Increase the size of your Attachments

quote: Originally posted by DuncanK It's not why you should. It's why you shouldn't. And the answer is because you're chicken.

/imitating Mr. Goldfinger
Noooo, Mr. Bond; the answer is, because we donīt care.

	18-02-2003 05:52									#50
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

quote: Originally posted by Thorn C. Tribune : I believe his commment was directed toward NKorea.

	18-02-2003 05:52									#51
	Put an end to popups!

Sandman,

That's ridiculous. The events started before that speech. He isn't doing all this because he's mad at Bush. If that were true he's definitely crazy and needs to be taken out. But it's not true. He's acting this way, because we can not immediately go kick his ass.

	18-02-2003 05:54									#52
	Got spare money?

If the UN is going to impose sanctions that N. Korea has already said is a declaration of war, the UN should also say that they will help defend South Korea. Otherwise I see the UN imposing sanctions and SF getting nuked. The North Korean may think they might get away with it due to America's current low standings with it allies and due to our army being tied up with Iraq.

	18-02-2003 05:54									#53
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

quote: Originally posted by Comrade Tribune /imitating Mr. Goldfinger Noooo, Mr. Bond; the answer is, because we donīt care.

You don't care about anything but your own ass and you want us to save that for you all the time. You don't take any responsibility for what's happening in the world. You jsut let us take care of it while you ***** and whine about how we do it.

	18-02-2003 05:55									#54
	Suffering from ads?

quote: Originally posted by Sandman Fact is, it was the Axis of Evil speech and subsequent American actions that spurred North Korea into this.

Yes, and it was a very bad mistake, because, even though I donīt think the NK government people *are* mad, I wouldnīt put my opinion to a nuclear test by provoking them.

	18-02-2003 06:00									#55
	Put an end to popups!

you Euro's are insane if you think this is all bush's fault.

Is it Bush's fault that North Korea and South Korea never signed a peace treaty?

Is it Bush's fault that North Korea has been selling weapons to anyone?

Is it Bush's fault that North Korea will do anything and everything to get it's hands on a nuke?

Is it Bush's fault that North Korea has "tested" missles over Japan?

Is it Bush's fault that North Korea has one of the largest standing armies in the world?

Is it Bush's fault that the people of North Korea can't eat and the people of South Korea can't sleep?

This isn't South Korea's problem, or the US's problem, or Japan's problem, its the world's problem! If you Euros are so damn peace loving you won't let this wacko launch a nuke at Japan! We've been trying to talk with them for the last 50 years, and look where its gotten us... just back to where we started!! Go send your diplomats to Pyongyang, and maybe when their heads come back on a stake and you have to explain to their families why they were sent in the first place, you'll realize this guy will not negotiate!

This is nothing short of appeasement, remember what happened the last time you Euro's wanted to solve this diplomatically!!!

	18-02-2003 06:01									#56
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Duncan, Caesar : All Europeans are not Comrade Tribune.

Last edited by Spiffor on 18-02-2003 at 06:07

	18-02-2003 06:01									#57
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by DuncanK You don't take any responsibility for what's happening in the world.

Why should *WE* take responsibility for the problems *YOU* manage to get yourself into?

We told you so.

	18-02-2003 06:04									#58
	Increase Your PM Length

They will probably get all high and mighty in the UN and start clapping for each other when they make a decision to not do anything about the situation.

	18-02-2003 06:04									#59
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by Caesar the Great Is it Bush's fault that North Korea and South Korea never signed a peace treaty?

The Korean War itself was the fault of the United States.

What business did they have to meddle in SE Asia?

	18-02-2003 06:05									#60
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

quote: I think the Axis of Evil speech merely accelerated the process, rather than triggered it (at least, if it's true NK never stopped its nuclear program).

Even accelerating it is irresponsible. There are no doubt certain sections of the American government who wanted to accelerate it for their own ends.

quote: My guess would be Kim wants to win the Korean unification, despite the dreadful economic situation.

Yeah, but even he knows there'd be little chance of it. But if the Americans are going to attack, he might think 'why not go for it anyway, since I'm on the chopping block anyway?'

quote: Sandman, That's ridiculous. The events started before that speech. He isn't doing all this because he's mad at Bush. If that were true he's definitely crazy and needs to be taken out. But it's not true. He's acting this way, because we can not immediately go kick his ass.

I'm sorry, but I am unable to decipher what this means.