18-02-2003 06:06									#61
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_We told you so.

Yep, we did

Last edited by Bereta_Eder on 18-02-2003 at 06:15

	18-02-2003 06:06									#62
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Spiffor,

I know that, and I apologize. It's just getting to me and I should probably take a break from this place for awhile. I know they are just trying to make us mad here.

	18-02-2003 06:07									#63
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quote: Originally posted by Comrade Tribune The Korean War itself was the fault of the United States. What business did they have to meddle in SE Asia?

hey comrade, do we still go around blaming autria for starting ww1???

they've had 50 years!

	18-02-2003 06:08									#64
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quote: Originally posted by Caesar the Great Is it Bush's fault that North Korea has one of the largest standing armies in the world?

The NKs wonīt take crap from you. I wish more peoples were like them.

	18-02-2003 06:09									#65
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Bush diplomacy really seems to be working, doesnt it?

	18-02-2003 06:09									#66
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quote: Originally posted by Comrade Tribune The NKs wonīt take crap from you. I wish more peoples were like them.

You are like them butthole

	18-02-2003 06:11									#67
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quote: Originally posted by Comrade Tribune The NKs wonīt take crap from you. I wish more peoples were like them.

so oppressing their own people is not taking crap from us?? so kicking out nuclear inspectors and restarting a nuclear weapons program is not taking crap from us?? when they develop missles which an reach your country, we'll see what you have to say.

	18-02-2003 06:11									#68
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quote: Originally posted by DuncanK Ned, You can tell that there is a great deal of difference between the way the Europeans and the US believe problems can be solved. The European way is to use straight diplomacy first, and then talk about military action. The US way is to get the troops over there, threaten military action and then talk diplomacy. The US way is undeniably more successfull. That's why we can talk all we want about the Europeans doing something here, but it's not going to happen, and I don't think we should allow this to be handled by the Europeans. It's too important.

Maybe we go with the diplomacy route first because we know how bad war is? Considering Europe has been ravaged by two world wars in the last century and the USA has not had that feeling since 1865, maybe be don't want to inflict that on others if we can.

I think if your final statement read

I don't think we should allow this to be handled by the Americans. It's too important.

then it would be correct.

Diplomacy first.
War as last resort.

That is the correct route, gun boat diplomacy should have stayed in the Imperial age where it belonged. Threatening to beat the crap out of someone who doesn't do what you want them to do categorises you as a bully not the good guy that Bush is saying you are.

	18-02-2003 06:14									#69
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quote: Originally posted by Caesar the Great hey comrade, do we still go around blaming autria for starting ww1???

Touche!

(Must admit, this was a good one; but consider this: The Austrian Empire was dismembered after WWI, but the American Empire still exists. )

	18-02-2003 06:15									#70
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Demerzel,

Diplomacy never works with dictators like this unless they think you will use force if no deal is made to your liking. If he doesn't think we will take military action he will never negotiate. Don't take this the wrong way, but that's why the US is better at these things.

	18-02-2003 06:16									#71
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quote: Originally posted by Comrade Tribune Touche! (Must admit, this was a good one; but consider this: The Austrian Empire was dismembered after WWI, but the American Empire still exists. )

we've become pretty good at making other people fight for our interests in other places

	18-02-2003 06:17									#72
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quote: Originally posted by Tassadar5000 Bush diplomacy really seems to be working, doesnt it?

As not... exactly... a friend of American hegemony, I start thinking Bush may the best thing since sliced bread.

	18-02-2003 06:18									#73
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quote: Originally posted by DuncanK Demerzel, Diplomacy never works with dictators like this unless they think you will use force if no deal is made to your liking. If he doesn't think we will take military action he will never negotiate. Don't take this the wrong way, but that's why the US is better at these things.

kim is playing "gun boat diplomacy", i doubt his country can survive all out war at this time... we aren't going win by offering him an olive branch, we need a battleship

	18-02-2003 06:19									#74
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quote: Originally posted by DuncanK You are like them butthole

I forgive you the insult because of the compliment preceding it.

	18-02-2003 06:22									#75
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Let's get real for a second.

This is Bush's fault for the exact reason I gave on the "Bush is incompetent" thread.

Bush has given the North Korean regime good reason to believe that the United States aims to change the regime in Pyongyang by force (the "axis of evil" rubbish and the "pre-emptive strikes" doctrine). Therefore, NK is attempting to compel the US into signing a non-aggression treaty with it. That's what all this is about.

So someone answer me the following questions:

1) Does the North Korean regime have good reason to believe that the US aims to depose it by force?

2) If the US does intend to depose the NK regime by force, was it a good idea for Bush to effectively tell them this when he already had plenty on his plate elsewhere? (he could have shut up and surprised them when the Iraq thing was over at no political cost)

3) Would NK Korea be engaging in this sabre rattling if Bush had not threatened them?

If the answer to (1) is "yes", or the answers to either of (2) or (3) is "no" (the only reasonable answers IMHO), then it's Bush's fault because of his incompetent diplomacy.

	18-02-2003 06:24									#76
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quote: Originally posted by Caesar the Great so kicking out nuclear inspectors and restarting a nuclear weapons program is not taking crap from us??

Well, they are in their rights; they officially opted out of the treaty.

quote: Originally posted by Caesar the Great when they develop missles which an reach your country, we'll see what you have to say.

I think they can do that already; but they have no reason to threaten us. Of course, in a full-scale Atomic War between NK and the US, there will be fallout everywhere, which I find mildly alarming, so I hope the US will back down and learn their lesson.

	18-02-2003 06:25									#77
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this has been going on for a lot longer than bush has been president... they tried something like this about a decade ago. they want food, oil etc b/c they can't afford to have these and a huge military force at the same time. so they threaten some of their neighbors and we give in.

	18-02-2003 06:26									#78
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Bush may be right, but if his actions spark Wwar III, is it really worth it?!! I mean, "I was right", yet millions had to suffer to prove this. North Korea may be an axis of evil... but is getting everyone to hear you're really cool insult worth starting the path to WAR?!

Oh and go to hell Paul.. ignoring me for more than a year.....!!!

	18-02-2003 06:26									#79
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quote: Originally posted by DuncanK Don't take this the wrong way, but that's why the US is better at these things.

Don't take this the wrong way, but that's why the US is now in danger of getting nuked.

	18-02-2003 06:27									#80
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quote: Originally posted by Comrade Tribune Well, they are in their rights; they officially opted out of the treaty.

ok, go opt out of the UN, so you won't have to take any more crap from us.

quote: I think they can do that already; but they have no reason to threaten us. Of course, in a full-scale Atomic War between NK and the US, there will be fallout everywhere, which I find mildly alarming, so I hope the US will back down and learn their lesson.

there isn't anything worth nuking in your country anyway

	18-02-2003 06:27									#81
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quote: Originally posted by Caesar the Great this has been going on for a lot longer than bush has been president... they tried something like this about a decade ago. they want food, oil etc b/c they can't afford to have these and a huge military force at the same time. so they threaten some of their neighbors and we give in.

Yes they did. But this time the threats came from the other direction. In other words if Bush had kept his mouth shut the problem would have arisen when he was ready to deal with it.

	18-02-2003 06:29									#82
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quote: Originally posted by DuncanK Demerzel, Diplomacy never works with dictators like this unless they think you will use force if no deal is made to your liking. If he doesn't think we will take military action he will never negotiate. Don't take this the wrong way, but that's why the US is better at these things.

I still believe in the carrot and stick approach.

As I've mentioned several times, diplomacy involving China ( esp. now China is starting to try to make itself more respectable on the international scene ) would pay great benefits when offering incentives to North Korea to back down ( carrot )

The threat of making life more difficult for North Korea ( stick ) would then back it up, not be the primary method.

Remember you get more flies with honey than with vinegar.

	18-02-2003 06:29									#83
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quote: Originally posted by Comrade Tribune Don't take this the wrong way, but that's why the US is now in danger of getting nuked.

What's NK going to do, roll a nuke in an oil drum across Siberia and Canada?

	18-02-2003 06:33									#84
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon Yes they did. But this time the threats came from the other direction. In other words if Bush had kept his mouth shut the problem would have arisen when he was ready to deal with it.

don't get me wrong, I have disagreed with a lot of Bush's actions in the past. (I was screaming at the TV when he gave that "axis of evil" speech) but this problem has to be solved, someday they're going to acquire a nuke (assuming they don't have one already) and that makes the situation a hell of a lot more complicated.

	18-02-2003 06:33									#85
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quote: Originally posted by Caesar the Great ok, go opt out of NATO, so you won't have to take any more crap from us.

We never opted in; Austria is neutral.

(But I wouldnīt expect an American to find Europe on the map, let alone know who belongs to what alliance. )

	18-02-2003 06:34									#86
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I see 2 possibilities here:

1) NK talks big and tough for a while. US builds up forces in the region. NK 'draws the line'. US crosses the line. China smacks NK and Kim isn't seen again until they finish their nuke program.

2) Kim realizes his comments aren't getting him anywhere, anticipates possibility #1, and shuts up until NK finishes their nuke program.

Three things will occur in either situation:
There won't be a war.
NK will eventually get nukes.
Europe won't do a thing.



After situations 1 or 2, beats me what'll happen. NK will probably attack SK or something fun like that.

	18-02-2003 06:34									#87
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quote: Originally posted by Comrade Tribune We never opted in; Austria is neutral. (But I wouldnīt expect an American to find Europe on the map, let alone know who belongs to what alliance. )

wonderful, i had to go and prove your point for you

	18-02-2003 06:37									#88
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quote: Originally posted by Caesar the Great don't get me wrong, I have disagreed with a lot of Bush's actions in the past. (I was screaming at the TV when he gave that "axis of evil" speech) but this problem has to be solved, someday they're going to acquire a nuke (assuming they don't have one already) and that makes the situation a hell of a lot more complicated.

Fair enough, but I'm worried that, unless someone checks him, Bush is going to keep making dumb mistakes like this and get himself into an irretrievable situation (if he hasn't done already with the Iraq debacle).

Nice avatar BTW, I've always loved that album. I think someone needs to sit GWB down and play him, "You can't always get what you want."

	18-02-2003 06:37									#89
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quote: Originally posted by Trip What's NK going to do, roll a nuke in an oil drum across Siberia and Canada?

You arenīt up to date. They donīt just have nukes; they have intercontinental rockets as well.

***
'North Korea: Nuclear-Missile Threat Adds to Americans' Worries
By Jeffrey Donovan

For the first time, U.S. officials have said they believe North Korea has the capability to hit the West Coast of the United States with nuclear-tipped missiles. As RFE/RL reports, the revelation is just one more reason for Americans to be jittery.

Washington, 13 February 2003 (RFE/RL) -- With Americans skittish about terrorist attacks at home, a possible war with Iraq and a slumping domestic economy, what more could they be worried about? How about a nuclear strike by North Korea?

For the first time, the U.S. Central Intelligence Agency has confirmed that Pyongyang has the capability of hitting the western United States with nuclear-tipped missiles.

The announcement was made yesterday by CIA Director George Tenet during a hearing by the Senate Armed Services Committee. It came as the United Nations nuclear agency ruled that North Korea is in breach of atomic safeguards.

Senator Evan Bayh asked the CIA chief about North Korea's ability to inflict damage on the United States: "What is the likelihood that [the North Koreans] currently have a missile capable of hitting the West Coast of the United States?"

Tenet, pausing to confer with officials behind him, replied, "I think the declassified answer is, yes, they can do that."

Tenet said the North Koreans probably have one or two "plutonium-based devices" today.

It is the first time the United States has publicly acknowledged that North Korea has such a missile capability, though media reports have long asserted that Pyongyang's long-range missiles could probably hit the West Coast.'
***

	18-02-2003 06:40									#90
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Hey they can nuke Redmond as far as I am concerned.

Gates dies in a firey holocaust, great!

Just as long as they don't target Cupertino.