18-02-2003 08:42									#31
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor Pantaloon : you got it pretty well. The French-German couple is acting within the EU about as arrogantly as the US in the world. Since Chirac is as subtle as Rumsfeld, he made his annoyance clear towards the candidate countries. He really hated to encounter such an opposition to his views.

Nah; the French and German leadership express what most Europeans think. The crooks led by Blair who signed that document do not represent popular opinion even of their own countries.

	18-02-2003 08:47									#32
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The French-German couple is acting within the EU about as arrogantly as the US in the world.

Hey, Bush never called anybody "infantile" and told them to shut up.

	18-02-2003 08:49									#33
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The French-German motivation wasn't to be nice with the populations, but to give a strong symbol of the renewal of the French-German motor (which had been down for years). This renewal was especially important now, since the EU's constitution draft will soon be ready, and the big debate on who leads the future of the EU will take place. France and Germany want to keep their standing, as they have from the beginning inspired everything the EU has done.
However, former "underdog" countries such as Italy, Spain or Britain don't want to be led by the French-Germans anymore. Poland and likes also wouldn't want to enter the EU immediately stamped as vassals from Paris-Berlin.

Chirac and Schröder expected other countries to fall in line after their declaration of being hostile o war in Iraq. Other countries seemed to hesitate, since the letter has been published only a week ago. But fact is, other countries didn't fall in line, which is bad for Chirac and Schröder, for their willingness to remain the guides of the EU.

	18-02-2003 08:50									#34
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DanS : you're right, he called his opposition "old" (Europe) and told them to shut up

	18-02-2003 08:57									#35
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor The French-German motivation wasn't to be nice with the populations,...

Perhaps not, but at the end of the day, their motive is of no interest. Fact is, they are right in this instance, and their opponents are wrong.

	18-02-2003 09:03									#36
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quote: Originally posted by Comrade Tribune Nah; the French and German leadership express what most Europeans think. The crooks led by Blair who signed that document do not represent popular opinion even of their own countries.

That's about right

	18-02-2003 09:04									#37
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We went through this 210 years ago. There has to be some compromise of power between large and small states. Power plays don't go toward solving this fundamental issue. I would have thought that France and Germany would have realized this.

	18-02-2003 09:06									#38
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EU unification has nothing to do with the US one.
Completely different statuses.

	18-02-2003 09:13									#39
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the point is that EU does need a motor...if we alway waited for Britain, the integration wouln't be nearly as far as it is now. However, Spiffor is right when he says, that the way France and Germany claimed to represent the EU was wrong...even if their opinion is shared by a large majority of Europeans

	18-02-2003 09:15									#40
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It wasn't wrong.
You will understand in a while
It was just the first time that the Berlin-Paris Axis openly defied US policy. Every "revolution" bleeds at first

	18-02-2003 09:16									#41
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It seems to me like these smaller European nations will get a bad taste in their mouths for the EU now, but I suppose there is some eocnomic temptation for them.

	18-02-2003 09:17									#42
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The 3 (actually 2) out of 10 that sent a letter to the US?
Nah hardly. They were US manipulated anyway

	18-02-2003 09:21									#43
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Slagging three incoming members is not smart. In some respects, each of these countries has equal power to France within the EU, even though they are a lot smaller.

	18-02-2003 09:23									#44
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Nah, it's not slagging the 2 members
The Chez PM went the next day on TV and said he was representing only himself

	18-02-2003 09:26									#45
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Oh you edited. As for smart or equal power, wrong on both regards.

	18-02-2003 09:29									#46
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Actually, there are two levels of power-struggle when it comes to the future of the EU :

- between countries : France and Germany have traditionally been the motor of the European Integration, and can be credited with nearly everything ambitious the EU has done (enlargment, common agriculture policy, development policy, common monetary policy, common currency etc.). However, other big countries now are tired to modify French-German longrange decision only at the margin. This especially goes for Britain, which has lost its willingness to let the EU being a free-trade zone, and which now wants to get much more involved.
Also, small States fear to become completely unsignificant with the enlargement.

- between indicidual countries and supranational institutions. This is a bit tricky to explain. There are two different logics in the EU : intergovernmentalism and supranationalism.
Intergovernmental relations means the haggling between countries (represented by miniters) has the most power. In the end, Nation-states get to decide according to their specific interests.
Suprnational decisions are taken by EU-institutions who look for the greater good of the Union, and not the good of individual countries. The European Parliament, for instance, is a supranational institution.

Until now, all important steps have followed the intergovernmental logic, i.e they are treaties which can or cannot may be ratified by the countries. All the founding texts of the EU are treaties mangled together. These treaties delegate power to supranational institutions (Eurozone States have no monetary sovereignity anymore, for instance), but these supranational institutions cannot get more responsibilities without a new treaty needing to be signed.
The incoming European constitution may give much more weight to supranational institutions in deciding the future of Europe. To most State leaders, that's a danger.

	18-02-2003 09:31									#47
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thanks for reminding me my first year in university

	18-02-2003 09:32									#48
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Paiki :
some decisions taken in the Minister Council still need unanimity of all countries, or have a simple majority (i.e 1 country = 1 vote). Even if these occurences get more rare all the time, the new countries have as much power as France on some regards. You know it is stupid to piss a country who has a veto power

Edit : my above post was rather directed towards Americans, who don't know how EU works (hell, even Europeans don't know how EU works... Are you studying political sciences, law or something ?)

	18-02-2003 09:33									#49
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yeah, yeah I know all about it

	18-02-2003 09:34									#50
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The first pillar is almost completely with special majority in the council of ministers already.
The other 2 are up for veto mostly. And it is the last resort really. Besides the last 2 pillars aren't solidified yet. Not that there exists no serious matters for a veto to be threatened (take expansion for example )

	18-02-2003 09:37									#51
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor Edit : my above post was rather directed towards Americans, who don't know how EU works (hell, even Europeans don't know how EU works... Are you studying political sciences, law or something ?)

You're right most europeans don't know either My Master's Degree was in Political science

	18-02-2003 09:39									#52
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We all know the Greeks will veto the exapnsion to Turkey, when the rest of the EU will stop chickening out and accept Turkey already (in some centuries)

	18-02-2003 09:40									#53
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I thought you were a journalist.

	18-02-2003 09:42									#54
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor We all know the Greeks will veto the exapnsion to Turkey, when the rest of the EU will stop chickening out and accept Turkey already (in some centuries)

Actually we won't IF Turkey has become democratic, respects human rights, has resolved all disputes with us and is no longer hostile. (Lots of IFs I know )

DD: And journalists are supposed to have finished only highschool?

	18-02-2003 09:43									#55
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They usually don't have degrees in Political Science. I would have also pegged a person with a Master's degree as being a better troll.

	18-02-2003 09:44									#56
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Maybe in the US that is so ...

edit for your edit: about the troll, I think I'm a pretty good one. Still you got to work with what's around you.

Last edited by Bereta_Eder on 18-02-2003 at 09:52

	18-02-2003 10:44									#57
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quote: Originally posted by DanS It's true! He also threatened them with no EU membership for supporting the rest of the EU in supporting the US.

Dan, how many EU members are supporting the US for the invasion of Iraq? Remember, UK doesn't count.

	18-02-2003 12:08									#58
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Great article, DanS. Hopefully we won't have to hear about how great the Euros are at diplomacy anymore...

	18-02-2003 12:31									#59
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quote: Originally posted by paiktis22 EU unification has nothing to do with the US one. Completely different statuses.

You're absolutely right.

Unlike the US unification, the entities coming together are not from nearly identical cultural backgrounds. In the EU case, it is even more important to keep the smaller, 'weaker' ones from getting stepped on, or resentment is sure to develop.

	18-02-2003 13:26									#60
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quote: Originally posted by DanS We went through this 210 years ago. There has to be some compromise of power between large and small states. Power plays don't go toward solving this fundamental issue. I would have thought that France and Germany would have realized this.

considering the foreign policy under the Bush administration, this has to be the funniest post of the whole thread


we call that 'la paille et la poutre' : you object of us having a straw in our eyes, while you have a whole tree there