18-02-2003 13:33									#61
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quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten Great article, DanS. Hopefully we won't have to hear about how great the Euros are at diplomacy anymore...

We all know, that America has the best diplomats. "You do what we want, or else...!" works great and makes many friends around the world.

	18-02-2003 14:03									#62
	Re: Chirac Says Eastern Europeans Are "Infantile" and should shut up! Got spare money?

"Infantile?" Chirac should try looking in the mirror… then again he probably sees Louis XIV when he does. Damn Gallicism.

quote: Originally posted by monkspider [hypthetically] but then out of nowhere it's leaders started talking about holding Nazi sympathies

Wait a minute… so now opposing an aggressor and trying to hold him to the conditions of the treaty he signed to temper punishment for his actions is comparable to Nazism? Fifteen years after Versailles Hitler was rearming; that's what makes Saddam's Iraq comparable to the Nazis.

quote: Originally posted by Maroule we call that 'la paille et la poutre' : you object of us having a straw in our eyes, while you have a whole tree there

So now trying to muster UN members to enforce the resolutions they drafted, and voted into effect, is the tree? Chirac trying to dictate foreign policy to other states by bald-faced extortion is the straw???
It'd be entertaining if these folks weren't serious

Bush called the French and German objections a shadow of "old Europe," the system that turned a blind eye to the realities of agression. Just as Churchill supported the 10 year rule at the time it was drafted; the difference is that Churchill came to his senses the moment Hitler's rearming was discovered.

Churchill supported Chamberlain's appeasement policy because there was no real choice. Britain had all but disbanded the army and had only a sorely outdated fleet to oppose Hitler. Now the Euroweenies are just scared to get dirt under their fingernails.

	18-02-2003 14:07									#63
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Chirac has shown again that he's far ahead of the competition for most pompous dumbass in Europe. Probably he wants to challange Bush for the transatlantic title....

	18-02-2003 14:33									#64
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I guess I should quit getting insulted when murricans say the Europe is acting the way France is acting. I should get insulted that Chirac says they are the Europe. FRANCE OUT OF EU NOW!

	18-02-2003 14:39									#65
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quote: We all know, that America has the best diplomats. "You do what we want, or else...!" works great and makes many friends around the world.

My point was that, while people in Old Europe (not Finland, Pekka ) like to brag about how skilled their diplomats are when compared to the "cowboy" Americans, they're really no better. Chirac's comments are far worse than anything said by the Americans, even Rumsfeld...

	18-02-2003 14:44									#66
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Thanks Drake for taking my feelings into consideration

	18-02-2003 15:01									#67
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quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten My point was that, while people in Old Europe ... like to brag about how skilled their diplomats are when compared to the "cowboy" Americans, they're really no better. Chirac's comments are far worse than anything said by the Americans, even Rumsfeld...

Although I don't consider the word "childish" or "infantile" worse than the flood of hatred and ignorance spawned by american politicians these days, I concur, that Chirac is a moron. Schröder, Blair, Bush, Rumsfeld and Powell (yes!) are morons too, in addition Blair and Powell are proven liars. After all, they are politicians. The only difference in my opinion is, that Chirac and Schröder are idiots, who do the right thing (although in a fairly dilettantic way) and Bush and consorts are idiots doing the wrong thing.

	18-02-2003 15:36									#68
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Since when did Chirac have power over the EU.
France and Germany are not in charge and there is NO common foreign policy.
The UK may be uneasy about war, but they would be far more uneasy about having foreign policy decided in Paris, Berlin or Brussels

	18-02-2003 15:51									#69
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quote: Originally posted by TheStinger Since when did Chirac have power over the EU. France and Germany are not in charge and there is NO common foreign policy. The UK may be uneasy about war, but they would be far more uneasy about having foreign policy decided in Paris, Berlin or Brussels

You are right on this, but why should France, Belgium and Germany agree to a foreign policy decided in Washington, willingly embraced by London? Either accept a "no", get over it, or continue to ***** and expect to be paid with the same currency.

	18-02-2003 15:52									#70
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quote: Originally posted by Sir Ralph We all know, that America has the best diplomats. "You do what we want, or else...!" works great and makes many friends around the world.

Because everybody else was sitting around with their thumbs up their asses we say, "Do it our way, or get the hell out of our way!" But you will hear what you want to hear.

	18-02-2003 15:57									#71
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Chirac was right to remind the Eastern Euros of some home truths.

	18-02-2003 16:08									#72
	Re: Re: Chirac Says Eastern Europeans Are "Infantile" and should shut up! Get a bigger avatar today!

quote: Originally posted by Straybow Chirac trying to dictate foreign policy to other states by bald-faced extortion is the straw??? It'd be entertaining if these folks weren't serious

Yes, I second that. Evil Chirac! You stop to dictate your foreign policy to other states! Take example from our American friends. They never do such things.

quote: Bush called the French and German objections a shadow of "old Europe," ...

That was Rumsfeld, but the difference between them is not that bold.

	18-02-2003 16:18									#73
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quote: Originally posted by Sir Ralph You are right on this, but why should France, Belgium and Germany agree to a foreign policy decided in Washington, willingly embraced by London? Either accept a "no", get over it, or continue to ***** and expect to be paid with the same currency.

Well the French have made theri position clear thats fine. Why do they then have to lecture other independant countries on the need to have the same policy as them in order to join an institurion which does not have a foreign policy

	18-02-2003 16:24									#74
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quote: Originally posted by TheStinger Well the French have made theri position clear thats fine. Why do they then have to lecture other independant countries on the need to have the same policy as them in order to join an institurion which does not have a foreign policy

I thought he was just warning that if the Eastern Euros want to be free agents there will be consequences. Fair comment. Most of em aren't worth having in the EU anyway.

	18-02-2003 16:39									#75
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quote: Schröder, Blair, Bush, Rumsfeld and Powell (yes!) are morons too, in addition Blair and Powell are proven liars.

You're certainly free to your opinion, but there's really no need to direct baseless insults at Blair and Powell. They're the only intelligent leaders left in this whole ordeal...

	18-02-2003 16:51									#76
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Chirac, like any french politician, is worried about the costs of EU enlargement. If the Common Agricultural Policy is changed to make more money available to the new EU members then french farmers will be amongst the losers. They have a powerful lobby that few french politicians would willingly upset. So this is more Chirac trying to put the new EU members in their place than about Iraq or foreign policy.

The US administration is suffering a similar problem, the message that goes down well domestically upsets the rest of the world.

	18-02-2003 16:53									#77
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Down with the CAP

	18-02-2003 17:06									#78
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Basically the whole Western alliance is squabbling and falling into a shambolic heap - Osama must be pleased.

	18-02-2003 17:20									#79
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quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten You're certainly free to your opinion, but there's really no need to direct baseless insults at Blair and Powell. They're the only intelligent leaders left in this whole ordeal...

Why do they need to resort to lies then? I once respected them both, but since that poor performance in the UNSC, trying to prove the presence of WMDs in Iraq, their reputation is forever tainted (Blairs even more than Powells)

	18-02-2003 17:32									#80
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in the end, let's not be naive, that's a classical example of diplomatic power play :

- rumsfeld tries to divide Europe, by talking of a 'old' and 'new' (east) europe, and gathering support there to undermine a position itself undermining the US policies. He has a lever to convince poland, czech, bulgarians because these countries feel the US liberated them and still protects them from a possible Russian resurgence. Fair enough, he plays for his side, nothing surprising here.

- Chirac plays the very same game, using the lever of the EU : if you play too much on the US side, you won't be able to have the cake and eat it. Again, that's perfectly logical.

Both play the same game. So let's grow up a bit here and stop the 'you're bad, no you're bad' mindless arguing.

	18-02-2003 17:38									#81
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Except Eastern Europe needs Western Europe more than they need the US - they all are desperate to join the EU. Chirac was reminding them of that - and also showing "old Europe" could also play hardball.

	18-02-2003 17:43									#82
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This is what I don't undersand. Some of them are forgetting which side their bread is buttered on...

	18-02-2003 17:53									#83
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I've had some dealings with the Eastern Euro governments and some of them really have their head in the clouds.

	18-02-2003 17:55									#84
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quote: Originally posted by Maroule He has a lever to convince poland, czech, bulgarians because these countries feel the US liberated them and still protects them from a possible Russian resurgence.

So the United States liberated the Poles, Czechs and Bulgarians? Thanks for the history lesson. I always thought it was the Soviet Union, who liberated them from occupation. Since they have overthrown their communist governments also without American help, they don't have any debts towards America, at least not as much as France.

	18-02-2003 18:38									#85
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quote: Originally posted by Sir Ralph So the United States liberated the Poles, Czechs and Bulgarians? Thanks for the history lesson. I always thought it was the Soviet Union, who liberated them from occupation. Since they have overthrown their communist governments also without American help, they don't have any debts towards America, at least not as much as France.

There is this myth that the US "won" the Cold War. It sounds better than saying the Russians gave up and went home - "draw due to lack of interest/something else to do" just isn't impressive.

	18-02-2003 19:02									#86
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quote: Originally posted by CerberusIV There is this myth that the US "won" the Cold War. It sounds better than saying the Russians gave up and went home - "draw due to lack of interest/something else to do" just isn't impressive.

I happen to be from Eastern Germany and can assure you, that people there love this "we won the cold war and liberated you from communism" attitude. If it wasn't for the Soviet Union, the revolts of 1989 would have certainly failed. Tian'anmen, anyone? And as far as I remember these days, it was the name "Gorbachev" the people called in the streets. It was not Bush senior and certainly not Thatcher, even if it hurts.

	18-02-2003 19:15									#87
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So why did the soviets not continue to maintain control of the Warsaw Pact countries? Some kind of altruistic mindset just overcame the soviet politburo?

The soviets couldnt afford to keep up with the economic pressure from Reagans military expansion. This caused discord amongst the populace and allowed for new leaders like Gorby to take power (once the old stalinists died off). Its unlikely that the soviet hegemony would have collapsed without the economic competition with the US and in that respect, yes the US did 'win' the cold war.

	18-02-2003 19:22									#88
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"Its unlikely that the soviet hegemony would have collapsed without the economic competition with the US and in that respect, yes the US did 'win' the cold war."

The USSR could have continued to compete and delay its collapse. The USSR could have simply reduced military spending - its collapse ows more to the paranoid nature of its policies than the pressure. Gorbachev essentially took a gamble on reform and lost.

The Reagan arms buildup maybe accelerated the process, but its not so much that the US (or the West) won, more that the Commies lost. And key to that was that even the party elites either resignated or opted for reform, given a rotten economy going nowhere. If economic pressure from the US collapsed the USSR, why does North Korea not collapse?

	18-02-2003 19:25									#89
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I think it's funny that AH is trying to justify Chirac blowing his stack and being quite indelicate. What's it to Chirac, anyway? It's not like the EU has common foreign or defense policies. And who now provides the security guarantees? Not the EU...

	18-02-2003 19:26									#90
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quote: My Master's Degree was in Political science

Where the world has come to?

"Americanism: an infantile disorder of Europaism."
by Vladimir Illych Chiracin

If I were France and Germany, I would pump up my weapons industry and I would blackmail the eastern european countries to buy my weapons instead of american ones, if they want any EU money at all. Because after all, that's what the Americans are after: that's the only meaningful transaction they can have with those countries.