18-02-2003 22:22									#121
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I don't have to.

	18-02-2003 22:24									#122
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quote: Originally posted by Sir Ralph We all know, that America has the best diplomats. "You do what we want, or else...!" works great and makes many friends around the world.

Ralph: I think it has been pointed out several times that proticular statement was aimed at Pakistan after they refused to allow their air space to be used. Bush made that comment in order to point out to the Pakis exactly how serious the situation was.

	18-02-2003 22:24									#123
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"I still, however, disagree. IF we put our minds to it and set about creating a Transatlantic Union with the ones that Chirac throws back, my guess is we could make it work."

If you can do that, we'll invite Canada and Mexico into the Union.

"someone should maybe remind France that it's empire is....gone?"

Only need to remind Chirac and some clowns from the écoles. They aren't all bad, you know, they just sometimes forget abou that....

	18-02-2003 22:25									#124
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I love this strategy... the Hawks know they can't justify going into Iraq, so they try and discredit everyone else...

	18-02-2003 22:26									#125
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Does anyone else think it's funny that the reason that Chirac couldn't keep his mouth shut is because he felt beat by American diplomacy.

	18-02-2003 22:27									#126
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quote: Originally posted by HershOstropoler "someone should maybe remind France that it's empire is....gone?" Only need to remind Chirac and some clowns from the écoles. They aren't all bad, you know, they just sometimes forget abou that....

Actually the brits are in much more dire need of that. (not that the ENA graduates can't be clowns )

	18-02-2003 22:29									#127
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American Diplomacy?
This has got to be the shortest joke of the week

You have no idea how much help you're giving to the EU
(the tragedy is that your leaders don't know it either )

	18-02-2003 22:29									#128
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"Actually the brits are in much more dire need of that."

No, they are in need of realising something else: That there is a difference between a great power and an ass puppet that tries to behave like a great power.

	18-02-2003 22:32									#129
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quote: Originally posted by HershOstropoler "Actually the brits are in much more dire need of that." No, they are in need of realising something else: That there is a difference between a great power and an ass puppet that tries to behave like a great power.

Most of them already have IMO.

	18-02-2003 22:33									#130
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A great power... You mean like Austria?

Rather then all this daft talk of setting up rival trade blocks it would be better to creat a tranatlantic free trade zone. That would mean greater growth for everyone but I doubt the more left leaning contential powers would go for it since they have such strong protectionist tendiencies.

	18-02-2003 22:45									#131
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"A great power... You mean like Austria?"

We gave up on that idea roughly around 1918.

"Rather then all this daft talk of setting up rival trade blocks it would be better to creat a tranatlantic free trade zone."

There have been talks about this, but most is covered under the WTO anyway.

"since they have such strong protectionist tendiencies."

Value of WTO decisions:

Beef hormone against EU: 200 million $
Banana case against EU: 100 million $
Tax subsidy case against US: 4 billion $

	18-02-2003 22:53									#132
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quote: Originally posted by paiktis22 American Diplomacy? This has got to be the shortest joke of the week You have no idea how much help you're giving to the EU (the tragedy is that your leaders don't know it either )

You mean you have no idea how much Chirac is helping American diplomacy.

	18-02-2003 22:56									#133
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Let's see, American diplomats were able to convince Eastern Europe as a whole that France was a disloyal friend. Chirac then demonstrated this by opening his huge mouth and attacking Eastern Europe. I think it is Chirac that is of great benefit to American Diplomacy.

	18-02-2003 23:06									#134
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quote: Originally posted by HershOstropoler "In 1982 when the Lech Walesa was elected in Poland" Huh? "the soviets moved forces to invade Poland. That wasnt needed since the Polish military took power." I think that was in 1981 and related to the Solidarnosc strikes only.

Walesa was elected to head the solidarity movement in sept 1981 and was the defacto head of the country until deposed by the military in Dec 1981 (close to 82, I was working on my memory of the events).

quote: Andropov was a moderate reformer. The concrete heads managed to elect that walking coffin, Chernyenko I think, after Andropov.

Andropov was not a reformer in any way shape or form thats why he was able to take power after Brezhnev.

quote: Not _just_ coincidence, but little causal effect. If you can trust the estimates the USSR increased military spending by a real 3 % annually in those years IIRC. Why should that break their back?

Because they were already spending 40% of their GNP on the military.

	18-02-2003 23:09									#135
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Is Germany in Eastern Europe? Where is the line?

I always think that it is just on the other side of Belgum... French need to shud up, no one can understand what they are saying anyway...

Ya know the problem with foreign countries is that they are all so full od foreigners.

	18-02-2003 23:09									#136
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1. Andropov was far from a redical reformer but he saw the needs for some reforms. Gorbachev was his protegee IIRC.

"Because they were already spending 40% of their GNP on the military."

More like 10-15 %. Where do you get such a big number?

	18-02-2003 23:12									#137
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quote: Originally posted by Japher Is Germany in Eastern Europe? Where is the line?

Technically they are Western Europe, but they are kind of on the line.

	18-02-2003 23:13									#138
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quote: Originally posted by DuncanK Let's see, American diplomats were able to convince Eastern Europe as a whole that France was a disloyal friend. Chirac then demonstrated this by opening his huge mouth and attacking Eastern Europe. I think it is Chirac that is of great benefit to American Diplomacy.

Nah, what they did was to "conveince" some of themto write a really meaningless letter for impression purposes/ american domestic consumption, telling them that it wouldn't be a great deal if they did.

Just to satisfy the "we need a friend" pathology of the Americans

Actually there is no "American Diplomacy" to be helped by Chirac.

	18-02-2003 23:14									#139
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quote: Originally posted by HershOstropoler "Actually the brits are in much more dire need of that." No, they are in need of realising something else: That there is a difference between a great power and an ass puppet that tries to behave like a great power.

You guys want to have it two ways. On the one hand you say France should have every right to oppose the US, on the other hand you say UK should not support the US. Obvious bias.

	18-02-2003 23:17									#140
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quote: There is this myth that the US "won" the Cold War.

There is also this myth about NASA putting men on the moon, but all reasonable people know that it was just American propoganda.

I would say that "The West won the Cold War" would be a more accurate statement than "The US won the Cold War."

-Arrian

	18-02-2003 23:17									#141
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Well even the Brits are saying that Blair is Bush's little puppy...

I don't recall any such sayings from the French people about Chirac. (just that he was much better than the "other" choice )

	18-02-2003 23:17									#142
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No, I doubt the US asked anybody to write anything. Both letters were their own work. Or do you think that anyone who agrees with the US only does so because they're too feeble to think and must crib from our answer sheet?

	18-02-2003 23:17									#143
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"You guys want to have it two ways. On the one hand you say France should have every right to oppose the US, on the other hand you say UK should not support the US. Obvious bias."

I say that France and Britain should form their opinion independant of the US position. That includes every right to oppose the US position, as it includes every right to support the US position. That is equally directed against an instinctive french opposition, as against Britain's puppet problem.

There's only a bias in this if you think every opposition against the US is biased. Which is a biased opinion.

	18-02-2003 23:19									#144
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I'd think that even you would realize that this was an "orchastrated" little impression move to counter the recent France-Germany "no war" declaration.
I guess not.

	18-02-2003 23:19									#145
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quote: Originally posted by Velociryx Wouldn't bet on it, Frogger. The USA's economy is vast and fully integrated (contrast this with the EU's economy which is vast and still integrating). Open access to a big market is open access to a big market, and if they're gonna be asked to make a choice, we could certainly provide them with a viable alternative. -=Vel=-

Have you invented a transport system that negates the effects of time and distance? No? Until then the US can't absorb a tenth as many goods from eastern europe as western europe can. Hell, the benelux countries alone probably represent a bigger market to eastern europe than the entire US does...

	18-02-2003 23:20									#146
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I think it's clear that they think that every opinion which does not support the US one is wrong.

	18-02-2003 23:23									#147
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quote: Originally posted by HershOstropoler "You guys want to have it two ways. On the one hand you say France should have every right to oppose the US, on the other hand you say UK should not support the US. Obvious bias." I say that France and Britain should form their opinion independant of the US position. That includes every right to oppose the US position, as it includes every right to support the US position. That is equally directed against an instinctive french opposition, as against Britain's puppet problem. There's only a bias in this if you think every opposition against the US is biased. Which is a biased opinion.

I think France should have every right to oppose the US position. But manipulating other countries to do the same is where I draw the line.

	18-02-2003 23:23									#148
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quote: Originally posted by Velociryx Yep....and the sun would never set on the British Empire. Keep tellin' yourself stuff like that, Paiktis.... HO - yep...misread you. Apologies there. I still, however, disagree. IF we put our minds to it and set about creating a Transatlantic Union with the ones that Chirac throws back, my guess is we could make it work. Of course, it won't come to that....nonetheless, someone should maybe remind France that it's empire is....gone? -=Vel=-

Vel...I'd love to join the EU and get the hell away from the US.

But I'm a realist. That 4000 km of ocean means that you get 85% of our foreign trade and the EU gets 10%

We even get ~35% of your foreign trade with 30 million people. Doesn't matter how open you make the border with Europe; it still costs more to ship it across the Atlantic than it does to ship it next door.

	18-02-2003 23:25									#149
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quote: Originally posted by Frogger Have you invented a transport system that negates the effects of time and distance? No? Until then the US can't absorb a tenth as many goods from eastern europe as western europe can. Hell, the benelux countries alone probably represent a bigger market to eastern europe than the entire US does...

Transpotation would be more expensive, but that's what subsidies are for.

	18-02-2003 23:28									#150
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quote: Originally posted by DuncanK I think France should have every right to oppose the US position. But manipulating other countries to do the same is where I draw the line.

LOL. Actually that's what the US tries to do