10-07-2003 16:11									#241
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

Stephan dude, "Cromwell" refers to the tank type.

	10-07-2003 16:48									#242
	Re: fairline, some things I havenīt understood yet ..... Inflate your Upload Space

quote: Originally posted by jim panse In german (as well as austrian) army organisation it looks like this: Company < Battalion < Regiment. Each Battalion consists of 3-5 companies "normal" infantry and one sKompanie ("s" = schwer = heavy; => "heavy Company"). A sKompanie has more menpower than a "normal" company and more firepower too. Is this the equivalent to the British heavy weapons company? If yes, how do you think that kind of unit should be represented???

That's exactly right. Each British infantry battalion = 4 rifle companies and 1 heavy weopons or support/HQ company. The Support Company or HQ Company had the battalion heavy weopons, eg the larger mortars, etc. You could either represent them with a mortar crew or leave them out altogether. Just to confuse matters I havent mentioned that armoured regiments have 3 tank squadrons + an HQ squadron which you could represent with Stuart Light tanks (or leave out again)

quote: (1) 1 Dutch Armoured Brigade "Princess Irene" (3 regiments/9 squadrons) - Cromwell How I shoudl understand this? (And donīt tell me that Cromwell was the name of its commander )

Sorry, confusing again. What I meant was this: the Princess Irene Brigade was an independent armoured Brigade organised in the same way as British armoured Brigades (which could be either independent or part of an armoured division). This means the Brigade comprised 3 armoured Regiments (equivalent to US or German Battalions!!) each of which had 3 tank squadrons + an HQ squadron; so each Brigade = 9 Squadrons of gun tanks + 3 HQ squadrons of light tanks etc in total. The Princess Irene Brigade was equipped with Cromwell tanks, not Shermans.

quote: (2) 1 AT Regiment (2 batteries of 17-pdr towed + 2 batteries Achillies) 2 batteries Achilles Tank Destroyer means 2 Squadrons, right?

This is another British Army anachronism. All 'artillery' guns, whether anti-tank, anti-aircraft, field artillery, heavy artillery, self-propelled or towed were operated by the Royal Artillery. All Armoured Regiments (ie normal tanks, not tank-destroyers) were operated by the Royal Armoured Corps).

The Royal Artillery (RA) organisational tree is:

troop----battery-----regiment-----(brigade or division)

The Royal Armoured Corps (RAC) organisational tree is:

troop-----squadron-----regiment------brigade

Remembering that 'Regiment' is equivalent to a US or German Battalion.

Achilles 17-pdr tank destroyers were regarded as SP anti-tank guns not tanks, so they came under the RA structure of batteries not squadrons. Don't ask why this is, but it probably couldn't be more confusing.

quote: (3) 1 Airlanding Lt Regt = 3 batteries The Airlanding Artilley were M8 75mm Pack Howitzers I think?!

Correct! ie each airlanding regiment = 3 batteries of M8 howitzers
[/QUOTE]

	10-07-2003 16:49									#243
	Increase the size of your Attachments

I know Preicles but the word "Cromwell" stood there without anything next to it and itīs a bit confusing because I canīt believe that an infantry brigade has had only Cromwell tanks as transporters.

	10-07-2003 16:55									#244
	Increase Your PM Length

Jim, heavy weapons companies almost never fought by themselves - they were normally split roughly evently between the rifle companies. As such, they really shouldn't be included as independant tactical units.

Re the British paras, they seem to have had a combined heavy weapons & HQ company. Given the high tooth to tooth ratio in para units the size of both the HQ and weapons units didn't justify seperate company commands.

BTW, have you gotten into the German TOE & OOB yet? The composition of German units was something of a movable feast by 1944, with most German units being desperatly understrength. It wasn't uncommon for units which appeared as divisions on Hitler's situation maps actually having the manpower of only a few battalions. Which is just like how Hitler liked it.

	10-07-2003 17:05									#245
	Re: Re: fairline, some things I havenīt understood yet ..... Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by fairline This is another British Army anachronism. All 'artillery' guns, whether anti-tank, anti-aircraft, field artillery, heavy artillery, self-propelled or towed were operated by the Royal Artillery. All Armoured Regiments (ie normal tanks, not tank-destroyers) were operated by the Royal Armoured Corps).

This practice wasn't limited to the British Army - German assault guns and tank destroyers were also manned by artillery personel. The justification was that the German artillery needed a front line role so that artillerymen had a chance of winning the highest medals for valour!

That this argument was accepted by Hitler is an interesting case study of the beuorcratic chaos and empire building which was a feature of the Nazi regime at all levels.

quote: The Royal Artillery (RA) organisational tree is: troop----battery-----regiment-----(brigade or division)

...and then there come the 'Royal Army Group Artillery' units. Which in true British style were allocated to Corps, and not Army Groups.

	10-07-2003 21:00									#246
	Full PM-box? Change here!

Next unit information update:

(1) I increased the number of the units belonging to the II SS Panzerkorps by 28, adding some additional Panzerjäger and split the Pioneer Regiment attached to each of the two SS Panzer Divisions up to company level.
Now the Germans have 190 units and the Allies have 262 units (1st Allied Airborne Army & XXX Corps); the 50th Northumbrian Division was transferred to the VIII Corps on 18 September.
* Do you think that the number of the units are more or less well balanced?

(2)

quote: BTW, have you gotten into the German TOE & OOB yet? The composition of German units was something of a movable feast by 1944, with most German units being desperatly understrength. It wasn't uncommon for units which appeared as divisions on Hitler's situation maps actually having the manpower of only a few battalions. Which is just like how Hitler liked it.

This will be represented by the Hitpoints. I this is the only way to simulate this. ANy other ideas?

	10-07-2003 21:37									#247
	Support Apolyton

quote: Originally posted by jim panse I know Preicles but the word "Cromwell" stood there without anything next to it and itīs a bit confusing because I canīt believe that an infantry brigade has had only Cromwell tanks as transporters.

Sorry jim, I've tried to confuse matters further. I mixed up the Dutch Princess Irene Brigade with The Czech Armoured Brigade. I think the former was in fact an infantry Brigade (with tank regiment attached?)

Case mentions the 'Army Group, Royal Artillery' which I had left out. As he says each Corps had an AGRA attached, each of which included 1 Field Regiment, 4 Medium Regiments and 1 Heavy Regiment, RA.

5th AGRA was attached to XXX Corps, I think. If you want to include them, a Medium Regt RA = 2 Batteries of 4.5 inch guns and a Heavy Regiment = 2 Batteries of 7.2 inch howitzers and 2 Batteries of US 155mm guns

	10-07-2003 21:43									#248
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

...and just to add to the mix I think the 8th Armoured Brigade were attached as support for 43rd Division during Market Garden, but I may have this wrong (?)

	10-07-2003 22:29									#249
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Ok, is there any kind of additional information still out there?
* How many King Tiger were at Nijmegen and Arnhem? * How many of these beasts eqipped the 2nd SS Panzer Korps?
* Which AA Guns were used by the US Airborne Divisions?

Iīll attach now the - more or less - final OOB Iīll use for this scenario and a list of the units I still need.

needed units: 4.5inch Gun, 7.2inch Howitzer, a multi-unit graphic/uniform style of the Royal Dutch Princess Irene Brigade, an US airborne AA Battery!

Attachment: oob market garden.txt
This has been downloaded 5 time(s).

	11-07-2003 12:00									#250
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

quote: Originally posted by jim panse This will be represented by the Hitpoints. I this is the only way to simulate this. ANy other ideas?

AFAIK, the German divisional commanders were ususally less delusional then Hitler, and prefered to amalgamate their understrenght units into a full strength ones in preference to fielding heaps of understrength companies. As a result, it wasn't uncommon for 'divisions' to only consist of a couple of roughly full strength battalions.

Fairline, do know where I could find an OOB listing the composition of the British Army Group Royal Artillery units in Italy?

	11-07-2003 16:33									#251
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

The Germans tended to use Kampfgruppe by this stage, rather than stick to the paper-only Divisions. They tended to be named after their commander and were amalgamated all-arms battlegroups.

To a lesser extent, the British and Americans did the same thing. US armoured divisions usually fought as 3 Combat Commands (CCA and CCB were mainly armour and infantry with CCR as support)

The British had finally got the hang of combined armour-infantry ops in NW Europe, unlike the desert campaign when the infantry element of an armoured division would usually fight almost independently from the tanks. A British Armoured Div of '44 was nominally composed of an Armoured Brigade and an infantry brigade, but in practise they usually fought as 4 Battle Groups, each comprising 1 infantry battalion and 1 armoured regiment (there were effectively 4 tank regiments in the division including the Armoured Recce Regiment)

Case: I only have details of the AGRAs in NW Europe, but I came across a great site with Italian campaign OOBs. I'll see if I can find a link

	11-07-2003 17:02									#252
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

quote: Originally posted by fairline To a lesser extent, the British and Americans did the same thing.

As well as the armoured divisions, by 1944 virtually all the Allied infantry divisions included a tank battalion more or less permenetly attached from the corps level tank reserves (US) or Tank Brigades (UK)

quote: Case: I only have details of the AGRAs in NW Europe, but I came across a great site with Italian campaign OOBs. I'll see if I can find a link

If you could track down that link I'd really appreaciate it - I'm helping someone perfect a TOAW scenario on the Italian campaign, and we haven't been able to find much info in the corps level units deployed during the campaign.

	11-07-2003 17:08									#253
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

Found it. It's a great site for Italian campaign OOBs but doesn't include AGRAs I'm afraid

http://members.aol.com/Custermen85/Units/BritishOrg.htm

All I know is that 1 AGCRA supported the Canadians:

http://www.junobeach.org/e/2/can-eve-rod-ita-uni-e.htm

	11-07-2003 17:17									#254
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

TOAW ?

	12-07-2003 02:43									#255
	Got spare money?

And the list of the units that will appear in the scenario:

Germans:

1. Fallschirm Armee:
Infanterie Komp.
MG Komp.
Infanterie Komp.(mot.)
Panzerjäger Komp.
SdKfz 7/2 FlaKwagen Komp.
Fallschirmjäger Komp.
SdKfz 251/21
15cm Nebelwerfer 41 Batt.
7,5cm PaK 40
PzKpfw III Ausf L
PzKpfw Ausf G

II. SS Panzer Korps
Waffen SS Komp.
PzKpfw V Panther Komp.
PzKpfw VI Tiger Komp. = schw. Panzer Komp.
Panzergrenadier Komp.
StuG III Ausf H Komp.
(schw.) Artillerie Batt.
SdKfz 7/2 FlaKwagen Komp.
Jagdpanzer IV/70 (V) Komp.
8,8cm FlaK/PaK Komp.
SdKfz 234/2 Puma Komp.

Luftwaffe
Fw-190D
Bf-109G

Wehrmacht
Widerstandsnest
4x2cm FlaK


Allies:

1st Allied Airborne Army
1st Parachute Coy
82nd Airborne Coy
101st Airborne Coy
Polish Parachute Coy
6pdr AT Batt
M8 75mm Pack Howitzer
Willys MB Ford 4x4 Jeep

XXX Corps
Infantry Coy
lorried Infantry Coy
Sherman V Sqn
Achilles Mk.IB Sqn
Sherman VC Sqn
Armored Car Sqn
mot. Infantry Coy
RFA 25pdr SP Batt (Sextons)
mot. MG Coy (Bren Carriers)
Recce Sqn (Cromwells)
Lt AA Batt
17pdr AT Batt
RFA 25pdr Batt

Prinses Irene Brigade
RD "Prinses Irene" Coy
RD 25pdr Batt

Troop Carrier Command (Air element)
C-47 Dakota
Hawker Typhoon
Spitfire Mk.IX
P-47D Thunderbolt
P-51D Mustang
Horsa Glider


Other:
German POW
Bridge (who would have guessed that ....)
Dutch Civilians

* Have I forgot something?
* Should I include some PzKpfw VI Tiger II too?
* Should the 21st Tank Regiment get some Panthers and Tigers too?

	12-07-2003 02:58									#256
	Inflate your Upload Space

How come no Tetrarchs or Locusts were deployed? Not that they'd be much more than Tiger bait.

	12-07-2003 03:02									#257
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

German POWs?

IIRC the germans had about 1500 casualties in market garden, 500 dead and 1000 wounded. the allies lost more than 18.000.

Now, i am pretty sure there were some german POWs but i would wager that they were not more than 10-20.

Is a unit slot worth it?

	12-07-2003 05:56									#259
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

quote: Originally posted by Boco How come no Tetrarchs or Locusts were deployed? Not that they'd be much more than Tiger bait.

AFAIK, the British only had a single squadron of Tetrachs, and it was allocated to the 6th Airborne division, not the 1st. I suspect that the reason that it wasn't transfered was due to the shortage of glider space which hampered the invasion by forcing the drop to be spread over several days. The tanks would have been worth their weight in gold though - the unarmoured jeeps which made up the 6th's recon regiment weren't much use against the determined, but lightly equipped, German troops the unit encountered on the road into Arhnem. Some tanks could have really made the difference by allowing the relief of the British troops around the bridge.

The Tetrarchs dropped with the 6th during Operation Varsity, the crossing of the Rhine. The drop doesn't seem to have gone well though, and, from memory, only a couple of the tanks survived the landings. (I know all this because I recently borrowed a history of the 6th AB div seeking some info in it's component 5th Brigade's role in Malaya).

	12-07-2003 12:57									#260
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by Palaiologos German POWs? IIRC the germans had about 1500 casualties in market garden, 500 dead and 1000 wounded. the allies lost more than 18.000. Now, i am pretty sure there were some german POWs but i would wager that they were not more than 10-20. Is a unit slot worth it?

Hmmmmmmm, good point. Maybe Iīll leve them out.

	14-07-2003 14:08									#261
	Progress Update Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Today Iīve got the unit file for you. Fell free to critisize the choice of the units I would be glad for any additional information.

Three more things too add:
* I may change the heavy artillery graphic.
* There are still three slots left. Feel free to add some unit wishes .
* And the file .....

edit: units.gif deleted

Last edited by jim panse on 17-07-2003 at 19:30

	14-07-2003 16:31									#262
	Get a bigger avatar today!

Have you considered including Dutch Partisans? The British failure to fully trust and enlist the support of the Danish resistance movement was a significant, though overated, blunder.

	16-07-2003 15:24									#263
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

yes, I thought about involving the dutch partisans but I had no really good idea how to implement them and so I decided to leave them out.

	17-07-2003 06:28									#264
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

A coupla of traditional settings for irregulars:

• Be stingy with the Ignore ZOC flag and give it to the partisans.
  
• Give role 6 to partisans and handicap them by restricting options in Game.txt. Restrict things so that they can only look into cities and/or ambush units.
  
• Give partisans 0-1df but hp/fp > 6. When fortified on good terrain they can damage units that attack them.
  

	17-07-2003 18:53									#265
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

quote: Today Iīve got the unit file for you. Fell free to critisize the choice of the units I would be glad for any additional information.

Jim Panse, The units are very good. Especially i like the camo of your units.

BTW, I have four notes for you.

First to your german motorized inantry. Most of german trucks had only two axles. German trucks with three axles were used in the thirties and at an early stage of the war, for example the so called "Krupp Protze". Later the whermacht mainly used 3ton trucks. The best was Opel Blitz.

So i would suggest to you this unit:


Second, i notice, that you use my "early" version of a sdkfz 234 Puma.
If you want you can use this one (i think itīs a more realistic version):


Third, i suggest to you the following British motorized unit. Itīs a Ford F60. This truck was produced from Ford Canada and highly used by the British army:


And last but not least i have posted a Kradschützen unit in the ww2-show-thread.

Good luck to your scenario

	17-07-2003 19:29									#266
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

@ Daily Danger: Wow, your units are fantastic. Thank you very, very much!

Iīll soon post an updated units file!

	17-07-2003 21:39									#267
	Remove this text

Ok, here comes the units.gif!

* Changed the (mot.) Infantry Coy of the 1st Airborne Army;
* Changed the lorried Infantry Coy of the XXX Corps;
* Also changed the SdKfz 234/2 Puma;
* Added the Kradschützen Komp.; (one more: fantastic graphic Daily Danger )
* And added a unique german unit, Field Marshal Model (to spice up the game; as you know, the dutch resistance gave the position of Modelīs HQ to the Allies but they wonīt believe them .....)

Ok, one slot is still left. Any other suggestions? (exception: the dutch partisans)

edit: gfx deleted.

Last edited by jim panse on 29-07-2003 at 21:10

	18-07-2003 13:23									#268
	Increase the size of your Attachments

Is anyone willing to "update" the P-47 Thunderbolt graphic?

	20-07-2003 22:52									#269
	Support Apolyton

Is it civilians on the lowest row, second from the left?

	21-07-2003 08:25									#270
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

@ arthedain: I believe that would be the Dutch resistance