02-12-2003 21:09									#481
	Put an end to popups!

I belive that Lego would probably side with GoW against ND, and sooner rather than later. In fact if we were to stay passive and watch, rather than try to side with ND from the off, GoW and Lego would be soon calling for a three-way alliance to stop ND getting too powerful. Er, sound familiar?

If we were to actively jump in with ND though (unlikely. as they are entitled to hate us more than anyone atm) we'd probably find Lego joing GoW at once. They may even be bound to that already.

I expect ND have heard more than a rumour - they've probably know all along. GoW may even have been using our offer to shop around with saying "look what a nice deal GS offered us - can you compete with that please?".

For RP, I don't want to kill them, millstone though they may seem, but I think we'd be entitled to ask for rent. They have their conquistador unit still to come, and GA, and can produce more than we could up there. Every turn that GoW have to see RP in their cocoon will piss them off, and RP's thirst for revenge will make them uneasy.

Eventually I see Lego, GS, Vox and RP all against ND - and there's RP's chance to get back on Bob. ND may prefer to keep GoW sweet and allied, though. Four Bobian cores would be better than two. In which case they'll attack Lego, who will come begging to us. They've calculated that we would have to join them or face ultimate defeat by Bob, and they may well be right, but whatever was ratilnal for us, we'd have to watch Lego suffer some before getting involved - for our own piece of Bob.

So I'm not convinced that we need to be pro-active at this stage. Whichever way the wind blows there will be opportunity for us, and I'm really keen on the idea of us being able to keep our heads down and build up economically while the other powers crush each others shields for a while.

Also, whatever the analysis, there is the sheer team manpower required for the diplomatic efforts. Someone would need to step forward and accept the commitment of driving the diplomatic engine on that front. I can't approach ND after what I personally have been trying to do against them. Which reminds me, the ball is in GoW's court re: alternative peace. I'll give Aggie a nudge.

	03-12-2003 04:26									#482
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I think that CH's above post captures my thinking very well... the outstanding issue being our current territory on Bob.

	09-12-2003 01:42									#483
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Actually, I would be up for supporting ND, in exchange for Bobian land. But only in that case. And no need to force things. If GoW & Lego go after ND, fine... let ND come to us asking for help. If they don't, **** 'em.

Basically, I agree completely with this:

quote: I'm not convinced that we need to be pro-active at this stage. Whichever way the wind blows there will be opportunity for us, and I'm really keen on the idea of us being able to keep our heads down and build up economically while the other powers crush each others shields for a while.

-Arrian

	09-12-2003 21:12									#484
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I liked the no bs letter to lego

	11-12-2003 15:18									#485
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- and a no BS reply. They won't give us GP - but will tell us we've on none on Bob - and they'll trade us some of their spare after the war, so that implies that they're rolling in it and we're not.

Has anyone played a game where a 200-tile continent has no SP? it seems quite rare.

	11-12-2003 15:28									#486
	Inflate your Upload Space

Good news from Lego, that they're willing to give us a gunpowder to stay out of any remaining conflict on Bob (presumably they have the last stand of RP in mind, or do they have some more nefarious backstabbing between ND and GoW in the works - is that why ND would like a 'stay off Bob' clause - because they've seen that even if we can't beat a two civ alliance, we can make a war seriously unprofitable for them). We should clarify the scope they have in mind for this, but I'm all for getting saltpetre for free to give us some nice muskets.

	11-12-2003 17:49									#487
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hmm

I'm glad I'm not their envoy, I would fire something off like, "start negotiating a peace treaty with GoW/ND? What do you think think we've been trying to do for the last month."

Jackass

Oooh Gunpowder. Now that will save us two turns, but probably cost us 100 gold. Pass. Maybe if they gifted it to us we could do it.

Not influence bob war? I need them to be more specific. Is this any bob war, or just the spanish bob war?

We will not sell our souls down the river. I would rather be beaten back to Stormia than make some deal with the devil that essential ends our game.

Blah

	11-12-2003 19:03									#488
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Let's analyse this ...

quote: After discussing your inquiry in the Senate of Legolad, we believe there is no harm in telling you that there is no saltpeter on Stormia and that there is no saltpeter inside or close to cultural borders of the territory you and RP currently hold on Bob. As for trading gunpowder to you... we are sorry but that cannot be done until there is a peace treaty signed between you and GoW/ND. We hope you understand we cannot provide a key military tech to you, as long as you remain enemies of our current allies (even if you intend to withdraw from the war). However, you have got our word that once the war between you and GoW/ND formally ends, we will trade gunpowder to you at a fair price - and not only that. If you agree to not influence the war on Bob (if there still is one at that time, of course), we will trade you one of our excess saltpeters. We hope this guarantee will be enough for you to start negotiating a peace treaty with GoW/ND.

First off - he's given us some info about SP and confirmed the rumour. Confirmation of the confirmation comes in three turns when we get GP.

Lego are allied to GoW and ND for the purposes of getting us off Bob, so it's not so surprising that they won't trade a military tech.
We'll have researched it by the time we leave, so trading it is not an issue.

As for SP - Muskets Shmuskets. We want to build Cats now and Rifles after. I reckon they're talking about the current war. There's no way Lego would want us to sign ND's demand - they might want us on Bob one day - I doubt ND take it too seriously themselves - but it shows that we're a concern for them. We might be able to get payment for just not intervening. Say a 20 turn peace deal in return for lux. If they go for that kind of thing, we could say to Lego that we were considering signing a sixty-turn non-intervention deal with Bob and see what Lego thought of that.

As for negotiating peace - I left Aggie a terse note to say we were leaving, but no mention of negotiations - let them come to us once we're gone. Correct me please if I'm wrong, but their WW hits before ours, right?

	11-12-2003 19:18									#489
	Inflate your Upload Space

Goddamnit to hell, ****! ****sucking muther****ing map generator!

You mean to tell me we have an island mostly comprised of plains, desert, hills and mountains and we don't have a single source of saltpeter?

I know, we already pretty much knew that. *sigh*

As for Lego offering to trade us SP, **** them. For now, anyway, the object is to prevent invasion totally (sea wall* + picket galleys), so SP is of little use to us.

-Arrian

* - the sea wall doesn't necessarily have to be complete. Depending on just how we place our picket ships, we can have gaps, and the troops assigned to blocking the coast can move around as the situation dictates (particularly if they're fastmovers).

	11-12-2003 19:24									#490
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yeah, saltpeter. that's nice. Hey Vondy, I thought you wanted us to make peace with bob, what good would muskets do us then? I mean, you're the only other party we could use a musket against....

wonder if they would go for an "IOU One Saltpeter Trade, expiration date: 50 turns from issuance"? I wouldnt', they would be fools to do so, we would have to redeem it probably the turn before we get m.t so as not to raise suspicions. But we should try, at least call them on their bs. But as it stands, saltpeter does us no good. And if we were asked to join in any war, I'm sure our ally would give us a deposit anyway, othewise we're useless. And we really can't take unilateral actions anymore, now can we?

	11-12-2003 19:25									#491
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quote: Originally posted by Arrian Goddamnit to hell, ****! ****sucking muther****ing map generator! You mean to tell me we have an island mostly comprised of plains, desert, hills and mountains and we don't have a single source of saltpeter?

What if we don't have coal or rubber?

Oh, and war weariness- I have no clue what drives it, I know that GoW attacked us first, so presumably....

	11-12-2003 20:57									#492
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vmxa1 said:

quote: Just for my edification, was any parameters given for the rights to build sistine? I mean, it occurs to me that they can use it as a prebuild for a long time and not be concerned about its being build out form under them. I would have made some prohibition in that regard. Start it in so many turns and no swithcing or all bets are off or some such.

This is a good point - what is the nature of this 'exclusive right' was it an early game deal agreed by everyone - can anyone explain?

	11-12-2003 21:03									#493
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WRT to sistine, basically all it said was that we agreed not to build it. I don't think any of us around at the time imagined that it would become the infinite prebuild that it is. Just another reason to have Lego on the list. I also think that we should perhaps consult the other two teams after the war and ask them how they feel about it.




edit: I think all the teams agreed to it....... did RP? I'm not sure if not, we gift them workers to pump their city to 12 and see how long would take for them to crank it out, then they hand over the city. HaHA. No, I'm pretty sure they agreed to this as well.

	11-12-2003 21:08									#494
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It's a rum deal for sure.

	11-12-2003 21:16									#495
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If you look here you can see the evolution of the talks. Note how this is interwoven with the whole feudalism debacle. In the midst of our negotiations, mysteriously GoW gifts them feudalism, thus we are screwed.


Personally, I think we should begin a prebuild for something, and if Legolopis builds something other than sistine, we should build it and tell them to buzz off.

	11-12-2003 21:19									#496
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"Invade us when you get to marines..."

We're also allowed to use Sistine as a prebuild - and what are we going to do when it is 90% complete and the only other available wonder has just gone to Lego?

	11-12-2003 21:20									#497
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quote: Originally posted by asleepathewheel edit: I think all the teams agreed to it....... did RP? I'm not sure if not, we gift them workers to pump their city to 12 and see how long would take for them to crank it out, then they hand over the city. HaHA. No, I'm pretty sure they agreed to this as well.

apparently rp have agreed to a no-sistine with lego

What did we get for the agreement?
RP lied, said they were prebuilding it and got a fortune for not building it.

	11-12-2003 21:25									#498
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We got Theology for free I think (also in exchange for allowing vox to flee)

here is the exact treaty:

quote:
Legoland-GS Theology Trade Agreement

1) Legoland agrees to provide Gathering Storm (GS) with Theology immediately after signing this agreement. GS agrees to not resell/trade/gift this technology to any other party for 20 turns from receiving it. After these 20 turns, GS agrees to not trade Theology to any other team, unless that team also agrees to not build Sistine's Chapel as part of the trade.

2) GS agrees to not attempt to build Sistine's Chapel as long as Legoland remains in the game.


That's it. Now, in the other lego treaties, there is a "spirit of the agreement" clause. Not in this one. I say we start building a wonder (say adam smith) and if they get it in lego, we build it and tell them to shove off.

We got hosed in this, and didn't know about it for 6 months! Haha. I wonder if they knew what they were doing when they wrote this,or if its just something that they figured out along the way.

	11-12-2003 21:27									#499
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Why don't we start a city on Sistine and see if they notice and say anything. Will antagonize them a bit. Oh sorry Vond, with the change in leadership and all...Oh, Vond, we are just prebuilding using it...no worries man.

	11-12-2003 21:32									#500
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Ah, this further down.....from deepo to Vond: (I feel like some historian digging through old archives )

I hereby officially declare the deal on Theology as ratified by Gathering Storm. Many thanks for another fine deal, we hope many more will follow.

There was one thing which for a very brief moment worried some of our members: we're not planning on doing it, but we're hoping that in case of emergency, we could use the Sistine as a prebuild for another wonder. Your proposal does not explicitely forbids this, and we don't think it would be against the spirit of the deal, but just had to check this before you got upset, seeing us building the Sistine.
In no case will we actually build the Sistine, no matter if it would be allowed as a prebuild.

	12-12-2003 10:56									#501
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Man, at this point I am tempted to toss a bird at EVERYONE.

We retreat to an impregnable Stormia, and inform all other teams that while we respect their accomplishments we are generally pissed off and irritable, and would like to re-visit ALL current understandings / deals / relationships.

We may or may not have a chance at winning this thing... but we, more so than Lego, have the opportunity to be the king maker!! (and maybe leverage that into more)

I don;t know my Euro history as well as I should. We are... Netherlands? Belgium?

And in RL, where is the seat of the European Union, and where is NATO?

We can win by thinking outside of the box. In fact... there is no box.

	12-12-2003 15:04									#502
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We probably don't need to toss birds at anyone - they'll be coming our way.

Check the GoW log - they say they want to make up with us. Lego's talking about generous trade terms. ND assure us they bear no grudge. Vox is talking tech trades. The only Civ not making encouraging noises is RP - for whom the clock is ticking.

How's this for 'outside of the box'? : "For Sale : Neutrality." (in 20-turn doses)

	12-12-2003 16:47									#503
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quote: Originally posted by Arrian Goddamnit to hell, ****! ****sucking muther****ing map generator! You mean to tell me we have an island mostly comprised of plains, desert, hills and mountains and we don't have a single source of saltpeter?

Here's one for Soren's thread. :chuckle: