04-08-2003 13:07									#421
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21.00 GMT works great for me.

	04-08-2003 13:38									#422
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okay, I'll send a PM (in half an hour or so, a bit busy atm)

	04-08-2003 13:53									#423
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Just noticed that Vox already had the save... so I included in my message to Lego that we still had NM. We definately want to mention this before they find out for themselves...

DeepO

	05-08-2003 00:51									#424
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for the Lego chat:
/join #bananaman EetMeerAppels
(nobody's there yet, I'll invite Vondrack at 21h GMT sharp (in 10 minutes))

DeepO

	05-08-2003 02:19									#425
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summary of chat:
- last message was an urgent warning, not to break all contact. Vondrack didn't exactly approved (or at least he wanted to reamin neutral).
- In case one party would get the upperhand, Lego is going to interfere. They're not shipping units to Bob yet
- we tried to get them to support the just cause. Might work... needs more discussion on the Lego forum

DeepO

	14-08-2003 20:55									#426
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Newsflash:

quote: One thing I can tell you immediately, though, is that we have already pre-arranged a trade for Invention. We shall get it not immediately after finishing our Astronomy research, but in a reasonable timeframe (soon enough, considering our needs, I'd say) and at a reasonable price....

From Vondrack's last communication (re: possibly changing our Astronomy for Banking deal).

So, they are getting Invention. Thus, it makes little sense for us to research that (at least until they and the team they get it from have it, when we get a discount). Our options for restructuring our tech deal are more limited now.

Somehow I doubt they would be interested in Printing Press (dunno the tech cost, but I think it's less than Banking). So that leaves some sort of deferred payment, or the original deal.

Anybody got a bright idea?

-Arrian

	14-08-2003 21:29									#427
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it might not be so bright an idea, but what about forgetting everything, and simply researching banking? It costs only some 200 gold more then invention.

printing press is most likely for Vox, while Lego goes for navigation.

And if Bob is going for invention, it means gunpowder will come soon... at which time we either need a truce, or to have conquered most of Bob. Our knights can't attack musketmen without great losses

DeepO

	14-08-2003 22:03									#428
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We need to start thinking offensively VERY soon- 30 units on GoW's land is not a realistic venture, I believe, we'll have to settle for less, but we need to move quickly. We havethe forces to stop ND and perhaps gain some ground, but GoW is too far away from where we've concentrated our forces...

Anyway, not a discussion for this thread.

	14-08-2003 22:48									#429
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I doubt we will be able to turn the tide and win before musketmen show up.

Anyway, we probably just have to suck it up and research banking. Then, after that, we're gonna need to shoot for MT.

-Arrian

	19-08-2003 01:05									#430
	Remove this text

Ok, Legoland has answered our request.

They chose to be pretty damn accomodating: they will agree to void the tech deal with no hard feelings. For specifics, please read the Contact thread.

-Arrian

	19-08-2003 01:32									#431
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Awesome!
They must realize that GoW and ND are currently the stronger side. I think we're pretty safe to assume that they don't intend to attack us in the near future.
Technically, they could be preparing for an attack by cancelling the tech deal which would allow them to declare war on us, but the smart (and Lego'ish) move would be to cripple us economically first by forcing us to research invention.

	19-08-2003 01:36									#432
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Good news.

They probably aren't pleased with what they see on Bob.

And they have vox as a research buddy, so don't need us for now.

	19-08-2003 01:37									#433
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Btw, this might be just a guess but it seems pretty solid: Lego is getting invention from Vox.
Reasoning: what else can Vox research? They had to start a long while ago since they're in 40-turns mode, and until before we got involved in the war Lego thought that they can get some building techs from us and would probably commit Vox to a military tech such as invention.
Also, pay attention to this part:

quote: We shall get it not immediately after finishing our Astronomy research, but in a reasonable timeframe (soon enough, considering our needs, I'd say) and at a reasonable price, so that's not what we would ask for instead of Banking.

Lego doesn't need invention urgently (AFAIK), so getting it in ~30-27 turns is reasonable considering their needs. A reasonable price: that is, for free (or for a token price, or whatever arrangements they've made with Vox), but Vondrack can't say that so he used this kind of wording instead.

	19-08-2003 02:51									#434
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Somebody say trouble brewing? What's the scoop, guys?

-=Vel=-

	19-08-2003 04:31									#435
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Hey Vel!!

Damn, I like Vondrack. We should try to offer up something nice to Lego for being so accommodating... GoW territory? I am actually semi-serious there.

	19-08-2003 08:07									#436
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I'm actually agreeing with you.
I'd say more about this, but I'm just going out. Later.

	19-08-2003 19:27									#437
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We can't offer them territory we aren't sure we will have control of, fellas.

Anybody remember what the compensation was for the difference in research cost between Banking & Astronomy? If not, I guess we will have to dig it up.

-Arrian

	19-08-2003 20:31									#438
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phew.... finally got back in here. When I've got time, 'poly is down, and I haven't gor much time lately.

As to the compensation: since we ask for the cancellation of the deal, we should wiave the difference. I thought it was about half the beaker cost difference between the two (about 40 gold or something, If I'm not mistaken). No biggie.

Plus, we might still want to research banking, but simply can't keep up to the schedule. Invention is nice, but only after someone already has it (note to Shiber: check its cost every turn). We don't want to pay first researcher cost unless we have Leo's to build.

DeepO

	19-08-2003 20:42									#439
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I agree on waiving 40 gold. I wanted to know what it was, though, before supporting that. Since it isn't that much money, I agree.

We would get a discount on Invention's cost once other civs know it. Once it "makes the rounds" we can research it at reduced cost. Of course, it's still better if we can buy it cheap from Vox or Lego. And that's something I want to investigate.

I think we have a concensus here to go ahead and void the deal. Therefore, either DeepO or I should draft a PM to Lego that 1) thanks them for their flexibility and understanding; 2) informs them that we'd like to take them up on their offer; 3) waives the 40 gold; and 4) inquires as to the possibility of acquiring Invention.

At the same time, the Voxian ambassador should PM them asking about Invention as well.

-Arrian

	19-08-2003 20:59									#440
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Arrian, I don't think Invention comes from Vox. However, we need to contact them to ask what they're going for...

and please, draft that message, I'm still quite busy

DeepO

	19-08-2003 21:12									#441
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Yeah, I had considered that Invention came from one of our enemies. If that's the case, fellas, it's sure as **** gonna have a NDA (or a ND-to-GS-A).

-Arrian

	19-08-2003 21:20									#442
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

Draft:

quote: Dear Vondrack, and the people of Legoland: First, allow me to express the thanks of our people for Legoland's understanding and flexibility in this matter. It is much appreciated. We've discussed it, and decided that the best course of action is to take you up on your offer to void the Banking-Astronomy deal. We've also discussed the compensation for the difference in tech costs (40gold, was it, from us to you? Please correct me if I'm mistaken!) and decided to waive it, in consideration for your team's willingness to help us out by voiding the deal. You have mentioned that you will be receiving Invention soon, via a deal with another team. I have four questions regarding that transaction: 1) Can you tell me exactly when you will have Inv? 2) Can you tell me where you're getting it from? 3) Can you sell it to us, or is there a NDA. If so, for how long? 4) If you can sell Invention to us (either now, or when a NDA runs out), how much would you want for it? Thanks again, and I hope to hear from you soon ('poly willing). -Arrian Co-General of the Armies of the Gathering Storm Assistant Ambassador to the people of Legoland

Whaddyall think?

EDIT: addition to last sentence of 2nd paragraph.

	19-08-2003 22:49									#443
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The four questions are a bit too inquisitive though. They might not want to tell us everything, so I'd add a bit that goes something like "If there's some information that you cannot tell us, we understand. We only wish to find out whether there are any other opportunities for doing business with Lego Land in the near future."

	19-08-2003 23:41									#444
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I would add a little sentence to further express our gratitude after the second paragraph: "It is but a small gift for you willing to void the deal" or something similar. Just something to say: hey, we thank you very much, and want to do something back.

As to the questions: they might be a bit too much in a PM and perhaps would be better addressed in a chat, but other then that I don't mind them. It's natural we're interested in this, so it doesn't hurt too much to ask, as long as we keep friendly.

DeepO

	20-08-2003 01:41									#445
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That's why I phrased them the way I did (can you...).

I can add a little extra thank you sentence (I was toying with one in the original draft, but ended up taking it out) if you guys think that is best.

-Arrian

	20-08-2003 17:48									#446
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Ok, unless I hear an objection in the next 6 hours (3pm EDT), I will send the PM.

-Arrian

	20-08-2003 18:29									#447
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fine by me, Arrian

DeepO

	24-08-2003 10:04									#448
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re: invention

hmm. so they have to get permission now to move it? interesting turn, from the nda's to something...else.


how much would it cost to outright steal it from lego? the middle option, not the cheap or most expensive one. and what are the percentages. If they don't want to play, why not use what we have, our economy. Something to hold onto, for when (if) we have more cash, not used for upgrades.

	24-08-2003 14:32									#449
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how long would it take to research it ourself, provided that 3 other teams (GoW, ND and Lego) have it? I don't know if stealing it would be less expensive.

The only real problem I see is that GoW might be planning to build Leo's with it. They're still prebuilding the GL, right? Or maybe they also have another prebuild going... It's quite easy for them to stop the iron they're getting from ND for a couple of turns, build horses like mad, and upgrade these to riders cheaply. We should keep an eye on GoW's iron situation to see what's going on.

DeepO

	10-11-2003 21:00									#450
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So Lego dissidents want a chat. We could open with :

[Capt Mandrake]
"Sorry chaps, our nukes are already flying towards Legoland under Wing Attack Plan R. The only general with the recall code has barricaded himself in his airbase and keeps muttering stuff about 'flouride in childrens ice-cream'. Furthermore, we believe that the CRM-144 discriminator unit needed to recieve the recall code on one of our planes is damaged.

Now what's all this about a doomsday device?"

[/Capt Mandrake]