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DeepO
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supporting Candle'Bre
Jan 2002
time: 06:26
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Okay... I didn't found any other thread, so let's start this as our comments thread on the legoland log
First comment: we just finished a chat with legoland. I'm not sure about how it went, the pace changed greatly.
In short, first I was chatting with q_m, but he is a terribly typer (or at least so it seemed), where I had to wait sometimes minutes before something got back. I was not getting any info out of him, while I needed to give too much info myself... not good. Primary reason for them to call us to a chat was to tell us there is a 1-tile shallow between our continent, and what they call Bob. (Lux etc.)
After a while, zeit, vondrack and redstar1 joined in, and the chat took of a bit. I'm not sure we did right, maybe it's an idea to give some comments on what we should have mentioned, and what not. As far as possible, I tried to avoid solliciting information, a goal that was certainly violated in the beginning. Later on, the balance was more to our side, I think.
Things we learned from them: they are isolated, and thus nearly beelined for MM, which they have discovered now. They are very close to build a galley (one galley, it seems, no talk about galleys), and are discussing where to send him to. They are not planning on the lighthouse yet, but anticipate that if the galley doesn't find a passable way to other continents (and they think this is very likely, as they are certain that all around them there is at least sea, and not coast), they want to start / convert into building the lighthouse.
Further, they have a large quantity of dyes, and not very good terrain. They called their territory an island at first, but it was my impression it's quite big. It at least has varied terrain, in that they have lots of jungle, a river, desert (possible fps, they didn't answer that one but didn't deny it either), and a peninsula which is mostly mountains. Lastly, there are a lot of barbs which are giveing them headaches, but also a few promotions, and a lot of cash. They mention that they have 3 cities, but I'm not certain whether this meant it was difficult for them to get 3 cities going in the jungle, or they have only 3 cities, and nothing else.
Legoland is interested in trading, and realizes that they are getting behind big time. Occasionally they have contact with other teams, some of which have said them they were going for MM (which we countered, BTW), and they said all the contacted teams were researching tier 3 techs.
They asked what they could trade for techs, and we explored a few possibilities. Maps wasn't agreed on once, but both gold, and slaves was acceptable. They even volunteered to sail their slaves to us, and let us capture them, or give a non-cultured city just to be able to trade slaves, after which the city would be gifted back. Quite encouraging, they said they didn't like the slave deal, but knew that they were going to do something to get even in tech... I would certainly try to get in contact with them, as this can become quite interesting to us, and is an advantage that better not fall in one of the other teams hands.
So, what did we disclose? a lot of talk about Bob, as they were worried a bit, or at least interested on hearing our opinion. Further, little geographical info: we didn't tell them our lux (except for not having gems), we said we had mixed terrain, that our continent was long but thin. They were interested in our situaton with Vox, on which we said it was very tense at first, but improving. The reason for the possible tension came from a blockade, which let them roam free, while we were constrained. (little details on this).
My impression of this chat, but it might have been engineered that way, was that the high score of lego had more to do with a large territory, and not of a high population. And power mostly comes from fighting of barb camps. Further, they might have wanted to let us believe that their island is small, but there are multiple reasons to doubt that, the abundance of barbs for one thing. OTOH, them having only one luxury suggests it's no 2-civ continent either.
Other things? I forgot... I'm hungry, started on this right after getting back from work, in desperate need for a sigaret, and I want to do my turn on the Euro game... I'm going to need to pick one option 
DeepO
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Shiber
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Haifa, Israel
Jul 2002
time: 07:26
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I like the way that you handled the chat. We've given them a lot of information that didn't mean much to them, or that was publicly available, and received some information about their terrain, their problems with barbarians, their number of cities, their tech standing and some of their future plans.
In short, we are now in a better position than we were before: we know more about Lego, possibly more than any other team, and we have strengthened our relations with them, all without revealing too much confidential information.
I strongly suggest that we trade current minimaps with them. First of all, it can't hurt, since Lego is not hostile, and they won't betray our trust and sell our current minimap to someone else. Second, if they have our current minimap, they may become more prone to sail in our direction, instead of in the other direction, to the unknown.
I also strongly suggest that we hold another chat like this in the near future. We need to strengthen our bonds, because sooner or later, when they make contact, they will have to pick a friend, and we want them to pick us.
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DeepO
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supporting Candle'Bre
Jan 2002
time: 06:26
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Thanks Shiber. Let me tell you, it was quite difficult for me, as you automatically want to tell more. Also, I'm not sure they won't be able to get a lot of new things out of this when they analyse the log. One thing to keep in mind is that because they are in no way involved in the war (while we are indirectly), they have more time to divert to analysing our situation.
One of those things were I nearly spoke too fast was the fp situation: first I thought they were talking about us, when they mentioned in the public forum that some of their workers wanted to migrate to the 'desert with a river running trough it', but I suddenly realised that they might have been talking about themselves, so I deleted what I already typed, and asked them if they had a river, and fps too. Close that one... nearly told them something they didn't ask for.
Current minimaps: I don't know. For me, it seems to make the most sense to trade with lego, and if we are going to do it, they would be my first choice. However, I very explicitly didn't talk about it (IIRC), but wanted to hint at by saying something like 'can we help in getting you out of your isolation'. They didn't pick up, though. I'm not sure they got the hint, but I didn't want to say it directly, as I can imagine more then a few of our members would strongly oppose it. And I can see them convincing me that it isn't the best option, and we should keep to our selves.
BTW, it's risky. Sure, we could learn their borders, but one of the results could be that it becomes painfully clear that a galley can never cross the date line. If this happened, the possibility of getting in contact soon would have been very small, and they wouldn't have to risk any galleys to find out.
As to strengthening our bonds: I agree. If we would be able to get an exclusive deal with lego, where we agree to sell all techs, at less then half the marketprice (as seen by how many beakers it would still cost them) under the condition that they only buy from us until they catch up, this could become a gamebreaker. Even if it is remote, we need to keep that option open.
DeepO
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DeepO
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supporting Candle'Bre
Jan 2002
time: 06:26
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Well... I just reread the whole thing... I really remembered some things differently. For one thing: q_m told me 3 times it was 1 tile between us and Bob, in no uncertain terms, before I understood what he was saying to me  Silly indeed...
Further, they did say they were only able to cramm 3 cities between the jungle and the desert, and that is something I overlooked. Good thing I reread it, as it means they have 3 good, grassland cities, with a river running through it, and after that only jungle. Combine this with the chronicle like thing they posted on the public forum, and you can deduce they have at least 5 cities; 3 grassland, 1 jungle, and 1 fp. I wouldn't complain, if I was them.
Other things: it was you who mentioned the 'trade city to exchange slaves' first, and there was less discussion on it then I thought there was... basically, the point passed without comments from them.
Last thing: with all the copying and pasting, I seemed to have lost a few lines, and had a few double... at one point, the chat reads even more out of pace then it already was. If somebody could tell me how he logs channels in mirc, I wouldn't run in the same kind of problems with this.
DeepO
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Shiber
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Haifa, Israel
Jul 2002
time: 07:26
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Correct me if I'm wrong, but technically, wouldn't it be possible to meet up with Lego if the shortest route between Lego's continent and ours would consist of 7 untraversable tiles or less?
I mean, suppose that we trade current minimaps with Lego, and find out, by measuring pixels, that at the closest point, our two continents have 7 untraversable tiles between them, like this: (coastal tiles = C, sea/ocean = X)
CXXXXXXXC
If we embarked from the left coast tile and moved three tiles into the Xs, and Lego did the same from their side, they could get a glimpse of our galley and make contact with us. Is that correct?
If so, maybe we should see if they'd be willing to trade current minimaps.
What do you think?
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Shiber
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Haifa, Israel
Jul 2002
time: 07:26
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Oh, I forgot that galleys sink at the end of your turn and not at the beginning of your next turn.
Edit: x-posted with DeepO.
Last edited by Shiber on 25-02-2003 at 17:16
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22-02-2003 03:04
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