17-06-2003 08:44									#301
	Increase Your PM Length

Part of it is how much economic freedoms your economy has, and the other half is how strong the economy is.

	17-06-2003 15:05									#302
	Full PM-box? Change here!

It is economic freedom, as Archaic stated. It does bear semblance, indeed has a lot to do with GDP, but is not the be all and end all.

Elijah: I think for that, if it says your income tax is 28%, then it is 28%, however you have other taxes, so overall tax could be different, such as Alecrast's 0 income tax but with sales taxes, for example. Thus you can RP different taxes, but income tax remains as it states. The main thing is not to define it, except in terms of plausibility, IMHO.

	17-06-2003 21:40									#303
	Increase Your PM Length

Ok, sounds fair enough, but you get my idea. Certainly the more abstract qualitative definitions given to us by NS are up for interpretation.

	17-06-2003 22:01									#304
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Yes, although quantatitive definitions should be accepted IMHO. Directly stated quantatitive ones that is.

	18-06-2003 17:21									#305
	Increase Your PM Length

Agreed, this means it might be an idea to resurrect the individual nation threads idea, so we can provide more accurate RP'd and NS-provided information, to present a more consistent picture of our nations, so others dont take advantage of the ambiguities on NS, and use the info provided by the player instead.

Any thoughts?

	18-06-2003 17:42									#306
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Individual Nation threads certainly wouldn't be that bad an idea. With a relativly low number of regular players ATM, it wouldn't get too cluttered, and it'd save us establishing new threads for each and every internal event or incident.

	19-06-2003 08:18									#307
	Increase the size of your Attachments

quote: Originally posted by Drogue It is economic freedom, as Archaic stated.

Not really, because private enterprises are also outlawed in the comparison example I give.

	19-06-2003 11:42									#308
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Doesn't matter. Economic freedom, for some odd reason, appears not to affect whether private enterprise is outlawed or not; for example, Akiria has frequently had high levels of economic freedom, while at the same time it has had no private enterprise.

	19-06-2003 12:02									#309
	Tired of ads?

Economic Freedoms in so far as the freedoms of the consumer and not of the businessman perhaps?

	19-06-2003 12:04									#310
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Not necessarily. They could also include how much latitude state enterprises have to operate; e.g., in Vietnam (IIRC), private enterprise is still technically illegal, but the directors of state enterprises can do what they like.

	20-06-2003 04:16									#311
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Jackson has finished its newest tank in devolopement and have been replacing our current tanks these for the past year. Just now the millitary has released the information on the new tank called the M2 Abarms tank.
About 2,000 of M1A2 tanks are being keeped in service as reserves and will still make a major part of our armor divisions.
(hope no one minds me coping this from )

Weight: 60 metric tons
Crew: 4

Engine:1900 hp gas-turbine
Max Road Speed: 42 mph
Max X-country Speed: 30 mph
Power/Weight: 31.6 hp/tn
Ground Pressure: 1.05 kg/sq.cm

Weapons
Main Weapon: 140 mm smoothbore (range 3500 meters)
Ammunition: 40 rounds for main gun, 4000 rounds for both machine guns
Ammunition Types: APFSDS, HEAT, HEF,
Auxiliary armament: twin coaxial 14 mm machine guns
Smoke Screens: Smoke Grenades, Smoke Discharger

Equipment
Rangefinder: Laser
Night Vision: Computer Enhanced Thermal Imager
Fire Control: Optical, can fire at full speed with 95% accuracy.
Jammers: Clasified
Onboard Computer: Clasified


Armor:
The Armor is based upon that used in the M1A2 tank. This armor is stronger and can take a direct hit from a DU round at 700 meters. It also this armor also reduces the termal signiture of the tank and its paint reduces the chance of night vision gogals from seeing it.

Last edited by Jack_www on 20-06-2003 at 17:59

	20-06-2003 04:30									#312
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

The Libertarian Federation would like to import 200 of these tanks, as our armoured divisions on land are subject to an overhaul at the moment, we need examples of good technology to examine, and in the interim while we develop a model of our own, impliment.

	20-06-2003 08:16									#313
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

quote: Originally posted by Jack_www (hope no one minds me coping this from )

[OOC]

You mean this?

quote: Weight: 50 (?) metric tons Crew: 3 Engine:1500 hp diesel or 1750 hp gas-turbine Max Road Speed: >90 km/h Max X-country Speed: >55 km/h Power/Weight: at least 30.0 hp/tn Ground Pressure: 1.00 (?) kg/sq.cm Weapons Main Weapon: 152mm smoothbore (?!) Ammunition: 40 (?) rounds for main gun, 8 rounds for SAM Ammunition Types: APFSDS, HEAT, HEF, ? ATGM through 135mm: most likely 817AM derivative Auxiliary armament: 30mm chain gun, twin coaxial 12.5mm machine guns, SAM launcher Smoke Screens: Smoke Grenades, Smoke Discharger Equipment Rangefinder: Laser Night Vision: Computer Enhanced Thermal Imager Fire Control: Optical; GLATIIS 2-T with intergrated Missile Guidance Capability Jammers: IR & SACLOS Jammer, Radar Jammer Onboard Computer: GLATIIS 2-T (?) Active Protection System: "Nomad" Front Armor (Turret): composite, very rounded Front Armor (Hull): composite; 4th generation ERA Side Armor (Turret): composite, very rounded Side Armor (Hull): composite; 4th generation ERA Rear Armor (Turret): composite, very rounded Rear Armor (Hull): ? Top Armor (Turret): ?

[/OOC]

	20-06-2003 17:36									#314
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

Gotta say I like Jackson's better... besides... I can mod it!

	20-06-2003 17:58									#315
	Suffering from ads?

quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger [OOC] You mean this? [/OOC]

Well people have copied the way I set up my millitary stats, so people did it too me too.

	21-06-2003 07:33									#316
	Remove this text

quote: Originally posted by elijah Gotta say I like Jackson's better... besides... I can mod it!

Pah!

	21-06-2003 13:47									#317
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

What is it? The M62?

	23-06-2003 17:06									#318
	Got spare money?

I am working out a system for my nations incorporating the economy and the population into the military stats. If its successful I will post it here for you all to use

	23-06-2003 17:29									#319
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

If anyone could point me in the direction of the post where somone showed us a syetem of GDP and economic levels, I would be much apprecitaive.

	24-06-2003 02:58									#320
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

Let me give you an example Sheep, New Sheepsta has a "Very Strong" economy, thus we would be looking at something around the $20,000 to $30,000 US. Being an "Iron Fist Consumerists", "which measures its success by the nation's GDP", but with a very high tax, I would suggest it is near the middle of that band. Say about $25,000 US. Multiply that by your population of 543 Million and you get a total GDP of $13575 Billion US. With a 100% tax rate, that is also total tax revenue, and with defence as the main priority, I suggest about 8% of total GDP goes on defense, which is huge (Akiria's is 6.5% and defense is also one of its main priorities). That gives a total military budget of $1086 Billion US.

As for military numbers, sinc eit is "remarkable for its compulsory military service", I suggest something high, so about 1.5% of total population, which is about 5-6% of total male population able to work between 18 and 45 IIRC. That would give a total military personnel of 8.145 Million, of which proabbly about 3 Million will be support services. That is also very large.

Feel free to use this if you wish, or RP differently. That is what I would use, and it is a huge budget. This is only for New Sheepsta, however I will happily do the same for New Griffith, or any other nation you wish. I believe this is realistic.

	24-06-2003 07:55									#321
	Support Apolyton

quote: Originally posted by Drogue Let me give you an example Sheep, New Sheepsta has a "Very Strong" economy, thus we would be looking at something around the $20,000 to $30,000 US. Being an "Iron Fist Consumerists", "which measures its success by the nation's GDP", but with a very high tax, I would suggest it is near the middle of that band.

Unless there's an official definition somewhere, my take on "Iron Fist Consumerists" is the nation has very few rights, and the economy depends on a large internal market for consumer goods instead of replying on exports. A bit like the US, but even more of a police state.

So, with all the internal turmoil, its economy should be taildiving just about now.

	24-06-2003 13:42									#322
	Get a bigger avatar today!

quote: Say about $25,000 US. Multiply that by your population of 543 Million and you get a total GDP of $13575 Billion US. With a 100% tax rate, that is also total tax revenue, and with defence as the main priority, I suggest about 8% of total GDP goes on defense, which is huge (Akiria's is 6.5% and defense is also one of its main priorities). That gives a total military budget of $1086 Billion US.

While such a level of spending would probably be feasible (if something of a burden on the economy), I wouldn't say that it was necessarily that high; do remember that just because a coutnry has a 100% tax rate doesn't mean it has that all available for welfare programs and so forth; most of it would probably be used up just in the process of running an economy.

	25-06-2003 00:10									#323
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

GT: Very true, but when working out the %, I assumed that. I would suggest that when defence is it's pirmary concern, 8% is about right, about 6% for joint top concern, about 4% for secondary, about 2% for not being mentioned, and about 0-1% for "virtually no funds". If it's Sheepsta's primary concern, then 8% for that, less than 8% for everything else, so a maximum of 24% for all things mentioned. There could still be 40% minimum eaten up by inefficiency, burocracy, runing the economy etc.

UR: Iron Fist Consumerists means the country is run like a company, where profit is everything, rights are few, and citizens are "human resources". A bit like the Ferengi from Star Trek, but a little more of corrupt dictator style.

	25-06-2003 07:00									#324
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

Thanks I have done all the stuff yesterday. I will be posting the nations stats today.

	25-06-2003 08:54									#325
	Full PM-box? Change here!

quote: Originally posted by Drogue UR: Iron Fist Consumerists means the country is run like a company, where profit is everything, rights are few, and citizens are "human resources". A bit like the Ferengi from Star Trek, but a little more of corrupt dictator style.

Nah, I maintain my interpretation. It seems that "consumerist" is derived from "consumerism," which of course stipulates spending money in internal consumption is a good thing.

	25-06-2003 15:40									#326
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Well, it means spending on everything. However that doesn't mean that that country does not export, merely that it consumes a lot. That is good for the economy.

	03-07-2003 10:47									#327
	Full PM-box? Change here!

Sedd Grand Moff Tim's numbers. I think they are a little excessive.

	03-07-2003 15:22									#328
	Remove this text

Agreed. GMT has some explaining to do wrt government finances.

	03-07-2003 17:19									#329
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Alright, I admit I got a little carried away. Do you find these numbers more reasonable?

Westport's Military:

Population: 796 million
Organization and doctrine of our military is based heavily on the US model.

Army:

1,500,000 active personnel
2,000,000 reserve personnel
100,000 Paratroopers
20,000 Special Forces
Vehicle and Aircraft numbers are classified but are about what you'd expect for a modern, highly mechanized army of the given size.

Navy

1,000,000 active personnel
500,000 reserve personnel
12 Aircraft Carriers
30 AEGIS Cruisers
18 Cruisers
48 AEGIS Destroyers
48 ASW Destroyers
52 ASW Frigates
48 Attack subs
12 Ballistic missile subs
16 Cruise missile subs
12 Amphibious assault ships
24 Minelayers
48 Minesweepers
Carriers and subs are all Nuclear powered
Fleet train numbers about 350 ships total.
Vehicle and Aircraft numbers are classified.

Air Force

600,000 active personnel
600,000 reserve personnel
Vehicle and Aircraft numbers are classified.

Marines

500,000 active personnel
500,000 reserve personnel
Vehicle and Aircraft numbers are classified.

Nuclear arsenal

600 ICBMs(400 MIRV, 200 unitary)
MIRV payload: 10 200KT warheads
unitary payload: 25MT warhead
1,000 IRBMs(800 MIRV, 200 unitary)
MIRV payload: 3 200KT warheads
unitary payload: 5MT warhead
240 SLBMs(180 MIRV, 60 unitary)
MIRV payload: 3 200KT warheads
unitary payload: 5MT warhead
1,000 nuclear cruise missiles(yields vary, but are no greater than 200KT)
1,500 nuclear bombs(yield varies, from sub-KT to multi-MT)
3,000 nuclear artillery shells(sub to low KT yields)
200 nuclear mines(KT to MT yields)

Total: 13,100 warheads

ABM System
Can handle an arsenal comparable in size to our own.

Other
Westport maintains a massive stockpile of Chemical weapons. Westport is also rumored to possess a bioweapons program.
Conditions under which Westport will use WMDs:
1. Invasion of the homeland.
2. Use of WMDs against Westport troops/civilians.
3. Use of WMDs against an ally.

Last edited by Grand Moff Tim on 07-07-2003 at 03:57

	03-07-2003 20:17									#330
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

I referred GMT's post to the military committee, we will be able to give you a more precise answer there.