23-02-2003 07:00									#1
	Government School of Code and Cypher Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

The Government School of Code and Cypher (GSC&C) was opened today. Its job is to train its students how to . . . *ah fergeti about it*

--------

This is a LOG.

the GSC&C is now open.Here is the discussion thread

Last edited by Lawrence of Arabia on 24-02-2003 at 00:52

	23-02-2003 07:50									#2
	Remove this text

Keep this thread just for logs, open a new thread for discussions about it and link to from your first post.

Oh, and add something like "don't post in this thread blahblah"

So people, this a case of 'do as I say, don't do as I do'

	24-02-2003 00:10									#3
	Full PM-box? Change here!

Intercept 1

quote: flash9286: i used to be in vox LoA: why did u leave? 11:09 AM flash9286: it was boring 11:09 AM LoA: were u guys winning? 11:09 AM flash9286: i dont know 11:10 AM LoA: heheh 11:10 AM flash9286: i heard yall were getting beat 11:10 AM LoA: oh well 11:10 AM LoA: really? from who? 11:10 AM flash9286: people 11:11 AM LoA: like . .. ? 11:11 AM flash9286: havent u got two cities razed 11:11 AM flash9286: cant remeber there names 11:11 AM LoA: yeah we do 11:12 AM flash9286: i play aoe2 know instead of civ

Recorded 2/23/03 at 11:10 PST in #Vox - Lux Channel

	24-02-2003 01:10									#4
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

Intercept 2

quote: 12:11 AM GhengisFarb-AFK: Theres a Lux Hunt chasing Lux's settler they formed to abandon their capital and there only city is surrounded

Recorded 2/23/03 at 12:11 PST in #civ3dem

	24-02-2003 01:16									#5
	Put an end to popups!

Intercept 3

quote: 12:12 AM GhengisFarb-AFK: No one has touched any Lux city except Lux (12:12 AM --> shiber *sniff* i love this job) (12:13 AM * Shiber * yeah ) 12:13 AM E_T: ROFLMAO 12:13 AM GhengisFarb-AFK: I don't think Lux has gotten into combat yet 12:13 AM E_T: THey aren't making it atleast difficult for ND 12:14 AM GhengisFarb-AFK: ND hasn't got to fight anything 12:14 AM GhengisFarb-AFK: Remeber in the Hobbit there was a battle of 5 armies? 12:14 AM GhengisFarb-AFK: Lux is a battle of 1 army

Recorded 2/23/03 at 12:14 PST in #civ3dem

	24-02-2003 01:29									#6
	Support Apolyton

quote: GhengisFarb-AFK: Theres a Lux Hunt chasing Lux's settler they formed to abandon their capital and there only city is surrounded

Recorded at 2/23/03 20:13 GMT #civ3dem.

	24-02-2003 03:18									#7
	Support Apolyton

Intercept 4

quote: 01:56 PM LoA: trip you are loosing to ND? which team are u on? 01:57 PM Trip: Lux 01:57 PM Trip: and no, we're doing fine 01:57 PM LoA: oh yeah 01:58 PM LoA: didnt u guys raze two of your own cities? 01:58 PM Trip: nah, all of 'em 01:58 PM LoA: and now you have like a settler running away from everyone else 01:58 PM Trip: hehe 01:58 PM Trip: what team are you on? 01:58 PM LoA: gs 01:59 PM --> trip didnt u want lux to sell you guys a city? 02:00 PM --> trip no sorry not lux, i mean vox 02:00 PM * Trip * hehe 02:00 PM * Trip * perhaps 02:00 PM * Trip * but do not let this be known 02:01 PM --> trip well actually, i may have a proposal for you 02:02 PM * Trip * okay 02:02 PM --> trip what sort of assets do you guys have left? 02:03 PM * Trip * fairly large treasury 02:03 PM * Trip * why? 02:04 PM --> trip in return for allowing that city to be bought, we may need a little cash 02:05 PM * Trip * well, not sure if that's possible 02:05 PM --> trip you see, we have a little border agreement with vox and if you go and set up camp there, that may be a problem for us 02:05 PM * Trip * we've already transferred our treasury 02:05 PM --> trip we would therefore need a little compensation 02:05 PM * Trip * we also have no intentions of violating that treaty 02:05 PM * Trip * Vox is skeptical of us dealing with GS 02:05 PM * Trip * and GS is skeptical of us as well 02:05 PM * Trip * it's an interesting situation 02:05 PM --> trip its like a love triangle 02:06 PM --> trip in a bad novel 02:06 PM * Trip * hehe 02:06 PM * Trip * exactl 02:06 PM * Trip * y 02:06 PM --> trip how many turns do u estimate before the other civs catch up to your settler and capture it? 02:07 PM * Trip * 1 :P 02:07 PM LoA: so we have to move quickly 02:07 PM --> trip hehe woops 02:07 PM * Trip * yep 02:07 PM * Trip * not good 02:08 PM --> trip one of the issues that GS has with you setting up camp there is that it will take out an iron resource 02:08 PM * Trip * what do you mean? 02:08 PM --> trip this of course would tip the balance of power on our continent. could you tell me exactly how do you wish to expand once if yo uget that city? 02:09 PM * Trip * we are going overseas 02:09 PM * Trip * we've found another location to settle 02:09 PM * Trip * we have no intention of staying on your continent 02:09 PM * Trip * so you need not worry about our interference 02:09 PM --> trip oh ok that definitly makes GS feel better 02:09 PM * Trip * yes 02:09 PM * Trip * we're not staying, don't worry 02:11 PM --> trip so perhaps as compensation, we could get a map of say your new continent 02:12 PM * Trip * perhaps 02:12 PM * Trip * we shall see 02:12 PM * Trip * Lux desires a friendly relationship with all 02:12 PM * Trip * especially our new neighbors 02:13 PM --> trip i think this deal could be excellent for both of our great nations 02:13 PM * Trip * indeed 02:14 PM * Trip * why did GS want contact with Lux? 02:14 PM * Trip * it has made Vox very suspicious 02:14 PM --> trip GS desires a friendly relationship with all 02:14 PM --> trip Vox has no reason to be afraid 02:15 PM --> trip we have no intentions of attacking them 02:15 PM --> trip and keep that on the down low. we dont want civs to percieve us as an easy target 02:15 PM * Trip * they fear that we may give you the city after we leave 02:15 PM * Trip * and the fact that you wanted contact with us just before we asked has made them suspicious 02:15 PM * Trip * perhaps you could give them a reason? 02:16 PM * Trip * Lux itself was surprised that you wanted contact 02:16 PM --> trip i think we will give them a reason 02:16 PM --> trip ill talk to our leaders 02:16 PM * Trip * okay 02:16 PM * Trip * we don't want Vox upset 02:17 PM --> trip or us upset either 02:17 PM --> trip hehee 02:17 PM --> trip who do you think is the greatest threat to the world right now? 02:17 PM * Trip * ND 02:18 PM * Trip * they will conquer the continent before too long 02:18 PM --> trip is there an alliance against them? 02:18 PM --> trip something to conterbalance them? 02:19 PM * Trip * no 02:19 PM * Trip * GoW is trying to appease them 02:19 PM * Trip * RP is building forces 02:19 PM * Trip * they will probably destroy GoW before too long 02:20 PM --> trip i guess gs was lucky not to be on the same continent as ND 02:20 PM * Trip * hehe, yes 02:20 PM * Trip * they were very paranoid 02:20 PM * Trip * now they're reacting

Recorded 2/23/03 at 14:19 PST in #civ3dem

	24-02-2003 04:35									#8
	Support Apolyton

I thought this was interesting.

Quote from Trip about defending our capital with a warrior in the ISDG:
http://apolyton.net/forums/showthre...546#post1758546

quote: Lux walked in on GoW's and ND's undefended capitals. I won't allow the same to happen to Apolytonia in this game. Until we're sure of barbs and other teams and their locations, we need to have Apolyton defended or within range of defense at all times.

	27-02-2003 23:38									#9
	Suffering from ads?

I caught Trip while engaged in some chit-chat with BFM and Nimitz. Apparently he's telling everyone that Lux has a roaming settler.
Btw, Lux is holding the save. Perhaps this will give us extra time to finalize the deal with ND, and to make sure that RP will have Literature by the time they receive our proposal if we send it on 1450 BC.

	28-02-2003 06:46									#10
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Some more info from the ISDG
posted by realpolitic (GoW)
It's not really new, still it could be interesting for some:

quote: realpolitic : When do we garrison our city? GoW made the mistake of building a barracks instead of protecting our capital, when a warrior came by, we were luckyto negotate a peace treaty albeit under unfavorable terms. We are not playing against stupid AI, so I suggest we garison the city by our 3rd warrior. Let's discuss when the best time to do this is.

Oh, and Shiber, maybe make a comments thread for this one too (and a link to it)

	28-02-2003 18:26									#11
	Increase Your PM Length

Interesting chat with Vondrack. Reveals some info about the atmosphere inside Legoland.

quote: [14:58] * vondrack|back_at_1amGMT is now known as vondrack [15:00] Shiber: heeey! [15:00] vondrack: [15:00] vondrack: hi [15:00] Shiber: howrya? [15:00] Shiber: geez, look at me, [15:00] Shiber: an israeli that speaks like a redneck [15:01] vondrack: hehe [15:01] vondrack: a bit tired today [15:01] vondrack: but okay [15:01] vondrack: u? [15:01] Shiber: wonderful [15:01] vondrack: good for you [15:01] Shiber: lol [15:01] vondrack: I have some tough time in Lego these turns [15:01] Shiber: how come? [15:02] vondrack: membership growing a bit nervous [15:02] vondrack: about our lead diminishing [15:02] vondrack: that pay too much attention to the scores, I think [15:03] Shiber: i'm not sure i understand [15:03] vondrack: I mean [15:03] Shiber: what do you mean by 'membership growing a bit nervous'? [15:03] vondrack: they start to worry about the way we play [15:03] vondrack: our members [15:03] vondrack: fellow Legos [15:03] Shiber: who pays to much attention to scores? [15:04] vondrack: well, they do [15:04] vondrack: but seriously, with all the jungle here, it was something to be expected [15:04] Shiber: still having trouble with barbarians? [15:04] vondrack: yeah [15:04] vondrack: loads of them [15:04] vondrack: razed one camp two turns ago [15:04] vondrack: one on this turn [15:05] vondrack: and there is one more [15:05] Shiber: wow, so you must be getting a lot of gold and veterans [15:05] vondrack: nah [15:05] vondrack: gold, yes [15:05] Shiber: i wouldn't be so worried about the wretched jungle then [15:05] vondrack: but veterans? [15:05] vondrack: nope [15:05] vondrack: well, me neither [15:06] vondrack: but I am having difficult times keeping my teammates determined [15:06] vondrack: they start to panick a bit [15:07] vondrack: looking at the scores, they feel like we must be doing real bad, losing that nice lead... [15:07] vondrack: not the majority [15:07] vondrack: but several of them [15:08] vondrack: requires a lot of explaining, analyzing, and posting... [15:08] vondrack: anyway [15:08] vondrack: it's not that bad [15:08] vondrack: just that it used to be a bit easier to run the team [15:11] Shiber: must be fascinating, being isolated like this [15:11] Shiber: i think of all the opportunities... [15:11] vondrack: hehe... everything has its upsides and downsides [15:12] vondrack: just think of how much behind we must be in techs [15:12] Shiber: you'll be behind in tech, for sure, but all that gold from the barb huts will let you buy your way into the top [15:12] vondrack: do you think so? [15:12] vondrack: I'd think money would not be that highly valued... [15:12] Shiber: i'm positive [15:13] vondrack: I heard all the teams over there are now researching Tier 3 techs... [15:13] Shiber: it's true [15:13] vondrack: hmmmm [15:13] vondrack: sigh [15:13] Shiber: where are you in tech? [15:14] vondrack: just finishing Iron Working [15:14] Shiber: OMG [15:14] Shiber: well, if it improves your feeling, i'm sure that GS will cut you fair prices for techs if we're the first to make contact with your team [15:15] vondrack: thanks, appreciated [15:15] Shiber: we've played fair so far and we intend to continue this way until the end of the game [15:16] vondrack: I understand, glad to hear that

	28-02-2003 19:43									#12
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

The conversation continues... Interesting.
Note the part where Vondrack acknowledges E_T's guess, that Lego is #1 in productivity (demographics-wise). I'm absolutely certain that he's lying, because as far as we know, Lego has either 3 or 4 cities right now, and is stuck in a huge jungle. So, we now know that Vondrack is capable of lying...

quote: [16:18] E_T_Waiting: Reminds me of when I was in the SPDG City Planner, I had to spell everything out and still had peopleclambering for more information [16:19] vondrack: hehe, yes [16:19] Shiber: [16:20] E_T_Waiting: the good thing about being so far behind in the techs, is that they will be cheaper to buy [16:20] E_T_Waiting: or research [16:22] E_T_Waiting: Like IW, you just started that and now have it done. You'll Probibly do the same with the Wheel [16:23] vondrack: hmmm... I do not think that techs are getting cheaper [16:23] vondrack: unless we MEET civs that know them [16:23] E_T_Waiting: That Way, you know were all of your resources are and can start building those units [16:23] vondrack: at least IW is exactly 144 beakers for us, no discount [16:24] E_T_Waiting: well. If anything, your research base is a lot more than everybody esle has [16:24] E_T_Waiting: *else [16:26] E_T_Waiting: and that is want you need to emphasize to your people. [16:27] vondrack: hmm, let's hope you are right... even though I would not be so sure... especially you, RPers seem to be catching up on us quite nicely last turns... [16:27] E_T_Waiting: It all depends on how you lood at the numbers [16:27] E_T_Waiting: *loog [16:28] vondrack: [16:28] E_T_Waiting: *Look [16:28] vondrack: I know [16:28] vondrack: it's not me who's losing faith... ) [16:30] E_T_Waiting: then, just slap them around woth a wet noddle.... [16:30] vondrack: oh, I'm slapping like mad... )) [16:31] E_T_Waiting: Then don't worry about it, unless the rumbles are enough to get you thrown out of the lego leadership [16:32] vondrack: [16:32] vondrack: it's not that bad yet [16:33] E_T_Waiting: try to make a few of your most outspoken people start doing some number crunching or something, so that he get's a fell for what your talking about [16:33] E_T_Waiting: *feel [16:34] vondrack: oh... get Sharpe do some number crunching? that's impossible... [16:34] vondrack: he just has feelings and concerns [16:34] vondrack: no number crunching [16:34] vondrack: ) [16:34] E_T_Waiting: like your F11 Productivity, it must be #1, right [16:35] vondrack: yes, I think so [16:36] E_T_Waiting: then make him feel Important, give him a flassy job and let him get distracked by that... Remember, when you can't dazzle then with your brilliance, baffle them with your bullshit.. [16:37] vondrack: LoL [16:37] vondrack: good idea [16:37] vondrack: just that when he was asked to run for some post [16:37] vondrack: he said he did not have time enough [16:37] vondrack: but then was the most often posting member... [16:37] vondrack: go figure [16:38] vondrack: I mean - he is often right that this or that could be done in a different way [16:38] vondrack: but we can?t do everything [16:38] vondrack: can't [16:38] vondrack: resources are limited [16:39] E_T_Waiting: Plus, those F11 scores are hard numbers, you can Have sharpe play with WF assignments and report on what if means (and how far ahaed you are) [16:39] vondrack: hmmm, that's a good idea [16:39] vondrack: not only he might feel more comfortable [16:39] vondrack: but I might get some more intelligence, too [16:40] vondrack: see, E_T... wouldn't you like to take a part-time job as my personal resource advisor in Lego? [16:40] E_T_Waiting: AND, if he goes back over the older saves, he can get an idea on if Lego is maintaining it [16:40] vondrack: I would try arranging that with Togas... ) [16:41] E_T_Waiting: it's lead and who fast the others are catching up [16:42] E_T_Waiting: That might be possible. but we will have to see about it [16:42] vondrack: hehe ) [16:43] vondrack: but seriously, you guys are doing great job last turns... it seems like ND is losing breath [16:43] vondrack: Trip did right burning his own cities, IMHO [16:44] vondrack: denied them to ND [16:44] E_T_Waiting: But If you haven't got the Wheel yet, I would research that next, just to get you resorces all online [16:44] vondrack: ok [16:45] E_T_Waiting: The problem is that If Trip had stood up to ND, then ND would have lost Swordsmen, It's just a nature of the possiblities [16:46] vondrack: hmmm... you worried about ND turning upon you? [16:46] E_T_Waiting: and they would have less Swordsmen to threaten the rest of us with (possibly that is, we are freindly but concerned) [16:46] vondrack: I see [16:47] E_T_Waiting: The situation up north was best if Lux hadn't of done everything that they have done [16:48] vondrack: like overstretching and provoking ND into a war over the horsies? [16:49] E_T_Waiting: Or I should more approprately, Trip hadn't done the things that he did. [16:49] E_T_Waiting: yep [16:49] vondrack: hmmm, I see

Stay tuned.

	28-02-2003 20:02									#13
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

quote: [16:51] E_T_Waiting: All of RP that is active in the ISDG is closely watching Trip, because as soon as he makes a dumb move, we are going to shout for his removal so loud that you'ss here it in New Zealand [16:51] vondrack: LoL [16:51] E_T_Waiting: *you'll [16:52] E_T_Waiting: I'm not kidding, none of us voted for him as consul and none of us have want him as MoW [16:53] E_T_Waiting: We know too many things from the other game to know that we DON'T trust him to make propely rational desisions [16:53] vondrack: I see [16:53] E_T_Waiting: but we watch and wait [16:54] E_T_Waiting: And If I were you, I would keep a watch on him too [16:54] vondrack: [16:55] vondrack: sure [16:55] vondrack: will do [16:55] E_T_Waiting: Gheingisfarb was saying that Trip had tapped into a Magic Mushroom Resource on Lux land, and frankly, he's really acted like it [16:57] E_T_Waiting: I kind of thing that's one of the reasons that GF went to CFC, because Trip was in the Poly Team (but I could be wrong on that one....) [16:58] vondrack: really? [16:59] vondrack: there are so many other players [16:59] E_T_Waiting: As I thing, I could be wrong, but it might have been an Influancing factor.... [16:59] vondrack: GF might very well be heard more than Trip [16:59] vondrack: I guess we'll never find out... [17:00] E_T_Waiting: I'll try to find out, next time I'm in a chat with GF [17:00] E_T_Waiting: but that's no telling when that will be [17:00] E_T_Waiting: Anyways, I have to get going [17:00] * E_T_Waiting is now known as E_T_AFK [17:00] vondrack: k, cya

My personal conclusion is that RP is afraid of ND. E_T wished that Trip would have died fighting, so that ND would have lost some troops while fighting Lux units and their power would have been reduced.
Hopefully, the next war on Bob would be fought between ND and RP.

	01-03-2003 15:43									#14
	Remove this text

I'm chatting with GeneralTacticus. Again, I am getting the impression that there is tension and paranoia in Bob.
I'm not going to post the log, it's too long and boring and GT said almost nothing of relevance to the GSC&C.
I seemed interested in the RP team, asked about their inside newspaper, and asked GT to send over a sample article that has nothing to do with the actual game, in hope that he'd send an article that would have any interesting references or insights that he wouldn't notice and which would teach us something. He said that the last newspaper they published was also posted on the PTWDG forum ("The Stone of Spain", you can find it there. The last issue deals with ND and Lux gearing up for war). Furthermore, he has told me that the RP activity within RP is slowing down and that people are becoming more concerned with the game rather than with roleplay.

	01-03-2003 15:48									#15
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Now here's an interesting bit:

quote: [12:53] GeneralTacticus: We had a poll a while ago on whether to let the players from Lux in along with all their money.

	04-03-2003 17:48									#16
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

Another interting post by togas;
I highlited the best bit...

quote: Togas FOREIGN AFFAIRS -- Organization Thread My Deputy Minister of Foreign Affairs is Arnelos. I now need potential Ambassadors to contact me via PM or to post in this thread. Here is what I'm looking for: Ties you have to players on other teams. VERY active people. A pleasant, polite, and patient demeanor. Excellent writing skills. The ability to not become attached to the team you talk with. No moral issues, conscious, feelings that other teams have "rights," or emotional/moral pulls towards or against any team. An understanding that if you can't do the job for any reason, you will be reassigned or removed. An understanding that you do not make decisions for Apolyton, you convey our decision to them.

	04-03-2003 20:01									#17
	Inflate your Upload Space

I noticed that when I applied to be an ambassador. He's talking out of his ass there.

I think he means conscience instead of concious, btw. I would hope he expects his ambassadors to be concious at the very least.

	04-03-2003 20:15									#18
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

Edited: moved my post to the discussion thread.

Last edited by Shiber on 04-03-2003 at 21:42

	06-03-2003 23:28									#19
	Suffering from ads?

#civ3dem, times are GMT+2:00

quote: [19:38] * Thud has joined #civ3dem [19:38] Nimitz: hey [19:38] Thud: hi [19:39] Nimitz: so whats up [19:39] Thud: I've heard of some big happenings in legoland? (clipped some irrelevant chatter) [19:40] Nimitz: we may meet GoW soon

This means that we have to hurry. I suggest that we notify Lego immediately that we want to trade the eastern shore of our minimap for the western shore of their minimap.

	07-03-2003 00:10									#20
	Put an end to popups!

quote: [21:15] E_T: BFM, sorry to hear about Lux's demise, what are your plans for now? [21:16] BigFurryMonster: Retire in the countryside [21:16] E_T: Your not going to join another team?? [21:16] BigFurryMonster: Probably not [21:16] BigFurryMonster: Will be active within the ISDG

	07-03-2003 00:26									#21
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

From the PTWDG forum, thread: 'What now for the members of lux'

quote: Originally posted by Togas (irrelevant paragraph removed) My team's activity level has dropped off considerably with the ISDG and MoO3's recent release so there is room here for maybe 1 - 2 more people, ... (rest is irrelevant)

	07-03-2003 02:06									#22
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Togas posted this in the ISDG forum in relation to close city spacing. The quote does not say all (I don't want to be more specific as to the rest of the discussion in this thread), but it sounded more like an Aha!-erlebnis, that score is not a very good measure of population when one team is building closer then others. It lead me to suspect that RP is using a fairly lose city plan compared to the GS plan

quote: On the plus side, our score is going to be very small. We'll definately be under the radar.

DeepO

	07-03-2003 02:32									#23
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

Posted recently in ND's foreign affairs office thread:

quote: Originally posted by Darekill Well Lux victim invaded our country, killed a Scout, dented severall Swordsman and declared War on us. I'd say that was sort of an aggression!

Interesting, I did not know that. Not that it matters much anymore...
Still, I wish that Lux would have actually killed a Demogyptican swordsman or two.

	07-03-2003 02:46									#24
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

Might be in our favor that they didn't. If rumors about how much land RP has been gifted by the RNG Gods are true, it may be better balance with ND not having been weakened.

	07-03-2003 05:08									#25
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

quote: Originally posted by realpolitic We're in the game to win, just like everyone else. A recent message from RP refered to itself as a "diplomatic powerhouse". Your "powerhouse" has lied to us and others quite a bit.

by real politic (gow) about arnelos (rp) in the what to do with team members thread


edit: fixed quote

not much to see here, but wanted to post it nonetheless

	07-03-2003 11:27									#26
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

From the intergame site, specifically the lux thread:

(this is through I think the first 15 posts, quite a lot here)

quote: Originally posted by ruby_maser, rp Whatever can be said of human mistakes should also be taken in the context of what the game handed them. In the race for iron, ND won. It was right beside their capital, and the luck of that cannot be denied. That's simply game mechanics in action. Had that not been the case, had they been able to maintain parity with their neighbors, Lux might have survived whatever minor transgressions, deliberate or otherwise, they inflicted.

...

quote: Originally posted by Trip I'm not too favorable about talking about anything DG-related, but for the sake of clarification and accuracy... Donegeal and Unorthodox: In regards to city placement: one source of horses was directly in between ND, GoW and Lux. It was our one shot at securing them. If another team had gotten that city site (and ND missed it by a turn), then Lux would have had NO resources at all. Yes, none. ND was planning on building its city slightly east of where it did, and would have gotten both iron and horses with it. Had we not placed the city when and where we did, Lux would have had no resources, and ND would have had 2 iron and 2 horses (which they have now). Tell me, what happens when ND has a monopoly of resources, an itchy trigger finger, plenty of excuses to go to war and a neighbor with nothing better than Archers? Also, the big point, that everyone but some of my team and ND is either ignorant of or just plain ignores: In some discussions I had with Darekill, he revealed to me that ND was going to attack one of the teams on the continent. The fact that Lux was close and had some 'border infractions' just made it easier for them to justify a war. ND feared being surrounded by 3 Apolyton teams, being the only outsiders, and knew they either had to attack 1 or more of them, or make them fight each other. So the whole argument that Lux "provoked ND to attack it with its irresponsible behavior" is a farce, and a moot point as well. As I was often tempted to say, "people should not assume things about situations they know nothing about." E_T: I've seen quite a bit of double-dealing from the southern end of the continent as well. Disguised as a 'stall', Togas informed me that GoW and RP had made a deal regarding Writing just out of the blue without even consulting or informing Lux in any way, while we were in the middle of negotiations for the tech. That was the end of that. I wouldn't exactly consider that 'straight-faced' dealing. And that's just one of many things that stands out in my mind as far as RP diplomacy. I won't isolate RP though, because every team was engaged in 'double-dealing', or 'favorable negotations', as I like to call them, in some way or another. At this point, fostering FULL trust between any two teams who had already dealt with each other at all was basically impossible. It's cover your back or be burned. Also, I fail to see the whole "Not allowing your concerned neighbors try to broker a peaseful settlement to the problem" thing you brought up. I talked with Togas quite often about talking with ND and encouraged him to try to negotiate peace. So either A) Your team was misinformed, or B) Something that Lux requested and expected to happen didn't. Or perhaps you can clarify the situation for me, if neither of these is the case. While Lux did make mistakes, as every team did, the vast majority of the mistakes apparent to the other teams not directly involved are really only in the eye of the beholder. It would have been interesting to see what would have happened if another team had been given the Lux starting position.

quote: Originally posted by Arnelos 1. ND's source of iron seems to have been considerably closer to ND's capital than Lux's source of iron was to theirs (just the impression I got from talking to people, I actually haven't seen all of that part of the map). If Lux knew this, it should have been factored into the wisdom of their decision. As it turned out, ND could afford to mobilize FAR before Lux got around to it... which, when it comes down to it, is why Lux was killed. Lux could have survived if they'd mobilized earlier and not been caught with their pants down. 3. It convinced RP Team, Lux Invicta's "ally", that Lux Invicta could not be trusted even with a simple defensive alliance agreement. The ink was hardly dry on the document before Lux Invicta seemed to be attempting to incite Neu Demogyptica into attacking them and thus activating the alliance. While that might be precisely what Trip intended, it didn't quite work out as he invisioned it if so. RP Team simply didn't have the force available to help Lux Invicta even if ND -DID- attack them and alliances are largely meaningless unless you keep your ally abreast of the fact that war is the gameplan and give your ally the time to bulid up enough force to help you. As it stood, it was abundantly apparent that even if RP "honored" the alliance agreement, it would STILL only be an agreement in name only should a war actually break out so early - as RP Team was too far away with too little force close to the scene to help in the short time span between the initial attack and the conquest of Lux's capital itself. If Lux Invicta was at all counting on RP Team to help them out that early in the game against a swordsman rush, they were sorely mistaken that it would happen w/o coordination between allies. Unfortunately for Lux Invicta, GoW and RP Team did not share Trip's assessment of the situation. RP Team clearly saw ND's potential conquest of Lux Invicta as a direct threat to RP Team (and GoW's) security, but felt there was little to nothing we could do about it in time. We could immediately muster our forces and grow our military (as we did), but it simply wouldn't be in place and on ND's border fast enough to stop ND from taking out Lux Invicta. GoW, for their sake, didn't seem to us to see ND's lurch toward hegemony to be a direct threat to GoW at all. This made RP Team incredulous, as it seemed to some on our team that GoW was gleefully joining Lux Invicta to line up to commit suicide. That being said, it was abundantly clear from the three-way chat that GhengisFarb (at least) seemed more concerned about getting his hands on a Lux Invicta city than even thinking about containing the potential ND threat to the rest of the continent. RP Team decided to take the time of ND's distraction to build up military forces, build city walls, and generally secure their military position and defense of the southern part of the continent. RP Team also was given the opporunity to found a few more cities while ND was on the other side of the continent fighting a war. At this point, the most interesting thing that COULD have happened, would be if Lux Invicta effectively "surrendered" to Neu Demogypitica and agreed to fight alongside Neu Demogyptica against Glory of War in return for Lux's survival (with at least their capital city). RP Team had been musing about this possibility and while we didn't suggest it, we were indeed fearful that Glory of War was walking themselves into a potential trap if ND would be willing to let Lux survive and use the Lux-GoW animosity to go stomp out GoW and thus leave ND the master of the entire north (other than the surviving remnant of Lux, though ND could later destroy that if they wanted to go back on such an agreement).

quote: Originally posted by Trip The biggest variable to consider here is the other team. ND was a much harder nut to crack that I expected. Underestimating them is what I consider my main fault in the PTW DG. At all times they knew exactly how to read all the other teams, and they knew their position compared to all the others. They called everyone's bluffs, and if they ever bluffed themselves, they made sure no one else could call them. Had it been another team with another set of leaders, things might have been quite different. I knew many of the people here at 'Poly far too well, and unfortunately, I could never get a good reading on the personality of the ND team, which I approached as if it were a 'Poly team. However, now we know that they're always assured of what position gives them the greatest advantage, and always makes sure to never put themselves in a position which they cannot handle. They accomplished quite a lot from coming from the mountains and the jungle... if they got a better start position in this game, then things may be very difficult. However, that may be their one fault that we can exploit: they are very stoic, unchanging. Predict their move, and catch them off-guard. That's their biggest weakness. Though if I were them, the entire northern half of the continent would be mine...

	08-03-2003 01:06									#27
	Support Apolyton

I suggest that from now on, we make sure that we have a man monitoring #civ3dem before scheduled C3DG turnchats.
I always catch something interesting about 30-60 minutes before turnchats begin, so let's start treating every C3DG turnchat as an opportunity to hear important bits of information.

	08-03-2003 03:38									#28
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

ISDG forum, thread: Honesty is the best policy - at least early in the game

quote: Originally posted by realpolitic Since GoW took the high road, I guess I can tell you this: at the begining of the game, I took a poll and it was overwhelmingly pro-honesty. There was a sizable minority who said we should tell the truth, because our opponents would think we were lying. (clipped off the rest, which is irrelevant)

	08-03-2003 13:49									#29
	Full PM-box? Change here!

PTWDG forum, thread: Vox

quote: Originally posted by Jon Miller Hi all I would just like to say that you are gaurunteed an office in Vox if you are accepted. And we are looking for 2ish more people. Jon Miller

Are they REALLY THAT LOW on manpower?? I mean, I wouldn't be surprised, given the size of their team, but still...
This is something worth noting. It means that we can expect more delays from Vox which result from lack of manpower and not intentional stalling.

Anyway, it's nice to know that they finally realized that their "the smaller the team is, the better it plays" strategy is inherently wrong for a game such a this.

	08-03-2003 19:20									#30
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

Just got permission from BetaHound to post this in our private forum:

quote: Insightful Shiber - you posted this in the thread where we announced Lux's demise: "I'm really sorry to see this happen, but such are the rules of the game. It's too bad though, that Vox have thrown Lux the lifeline and yet Lux was ungrateful and uncooperative and gave Vox hell in negotiations. I hate to see Lux go, but I think it's mainly their fault - you can't play several civs against each other forever, especially not when your continued existence depends on one of those civs." It struck me as the most insightful comment yet made about the situation from someone who was not directly involved. We at Vox are not feeling too good about what we did, so it was helpful to see that some folks understood the issue from our perspective. Thank-you. ... Beta.