24-02-2003 08:39									#31
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quote: Originally posted by monkspider Asher's example has motivated me to start a campaign for Kansan independence, after all, the damn liberal democrats never campaigned down here and our state is at the will of evil liberal provinces such as New York. KANSAS UBER ALLES!

But you've got a Senate, where you have the same say as New York.

Canada has no such senate structure. In fact, the people of Alberta tried electing a senator to represent our needs, but Chretien wouldn't even have that. Rather than appoint our selected senators, he appointed some Liberal cronie to represent Alberta, even though the vast majority of Albertans are certainly not Liberal.

	24-02-2003 08:41									#32
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quote: Originally posted by Asher But you've got a Senate, where you have the same say as New York. Canada has no such senate structure. In fact, the people of Alberta tried electing a senator to represent our needs, but Chretien wouldn't even have that. Rather than appoint our selected senators, he appointed some Liberal cronie to represent Alberta, even though the vast majority of Albertans are certainly not Liberal.

This is not a sufficient argument for separatism. It is a sufficient argument for a better senate system [edit], or the abolition of the senate.

Again, more is needed for your radical conclusions, Asher.

	24-02-2003 08:42									#33
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon I wasn't aware that residents of Alberta were prohibited from voting.

Oh my. This is complex for you, isn't it.
We can vote, alright. Even though we've got about 120,000 people per riding that should have 70,000, because Chretien doesn't want to redraw the lines to give us more MPs...but that's another issue.

The issue is, no matter what we vote, it doesn't matter...

quote: Yes they do, because they consistently win free and fair elections.

~40% of Canadians voted for them, and it gave them complete, total, and unchecked control of the country. This is your definition of free and fair? Even if there's no structure like a US Senate which ensures that there's no tyranny of the majority?

quote: Again - I want an answer to the question, no more evasive and irrelevant answers.

Your question isn't relevant in the first place! I'm not complaining about the tax system at all, I have no idea why you're hooked on how we pay taxes.

quote: In other words - you need more than a tax gripe to make your separatist argument work.

I can't believe you instruct people at a university.

It's not a tax gripe. Please read the thread if you want to participate...

	24-02-2003 08:43									#34
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon This is not a sufficient argument for separatism. It is a sufficient argument for a better senate system [edit], or the abolition of the senate. Again, more is needed for your radical conclusions, Asher.

How many decades has Alberta pushed for Senate Reform...

The idea is that BECAUSE nothing is changing, that's why there's a separatist movement.

The Senate won't be reformed because the current system benefits the people in central Canada. Without Central Canada's support, there will never be senate reform. Why would central Canada give up its stranglehold on power to those "wingnuts" in Alberta by giving a fair system of government which can help protect smaller provinces from their tyranny?

	24-02-2003 08:46									#35
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon Plenty of Canadians pay a lot in tax and receive very little back. The residents of Toronto pay far more in taxes and provide more benefits to the province of Ontario than they receive back (witness the declining state of the TTC and other public services).

You're going to confuse the anti-Canadian troll. He'll have to do a google search to figure out what TTC means.

Don't feed the troll. He just likes to piss off loyal Canadians.

	24-02-2003 08:47									#36
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quote: He just likes to piss off loyal Canadians.

Thanks for illustrating why Albertans are frustrated.

Any time you advocate reform for a corrupt system, you're no longer a loyal Canadian, in fact you are anti-Canadian.

A loyal Canadian would bend over and ask for it harder, right Tingkai?

	24-02-2003 08:49									#37
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No taxation without representation!

America is with you!

	24-02-2003 08:58									#38
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Looks like I missed out on the fireworks.

Asher, looking at your graphs Alberta's done quite a good job under Canada as Boris said earlier.

How well would Alberta do if it had to ship goods across the border to Canada and pay duties?

What kind of products does Alberta export besides oil?
Could any of these products remain competitive without a seaport?

What proportion of Alberta's oil production goes to Canada and would face duties?

Without NAFTA would Alberta be making nearly as much money as they are now? We see Mr. Chretien refusing to link softwood with gas to keep Alberta revenues flowing.

Agathon, regarding your qualifications, read my sig.
Sava can be eloquent at times.

Would the mighty Republic of Alberta consider union with the humble province of BC?

	24-02-2003 09:01									#39
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quote: Originally posted by obiwan18 How well would Alberta do if it had to ship goods across the border to Canada and pay duties?

Obviously NAFTA would need to be renegotiated prior to Alberta seceding, if that ever happens.

quote: What kind of products does Alberta export besides oil?

Everything a normal place produces. Manufacturing, hardware, software, consulting firms, retail chains, etc.

quote: Could any of these products remain competitive without a seaport?

Why would BC lay off lots of workers and refuse to deal with Alberta's products?

quote: What proportion of Alberta's oil production goes to Canada and would face duties?

See NAFTA.

	24-02-2003 09:04									#40
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quote: Originally posted by Asher Oh my. This is complex for you, isn't it. We can vote, alright. Even though we've got about 120,000 people per riding that should have 70,000, because Chretien doesn't want to redraw the lines to give us more MPs...but that's another issue.

Given the amount of seats the Liberals get I don't see how this would make that much of a difference. Again, this is not a sufficient reason for separation. The government of the day has the power to do these things - who else do you suggest does it? Not too long ago, politically speaking, Brian Mulroney was the PM, presumably he also had the same power, so I fail to see how this is relevant.

quote: The issue is, no matter what we vote, it doesn't matter...

That's the case for a lot of people. It was certainly the case for me before New Zealand changed to PR and I didn't advocate revolt then. Why are you so special?

quote: ~40% of Canadians voted for them, and it gave them complete, total, and unchecked control of the country. This is your definition of free and fair? Even if there's no structure like a US Senate which ensures that there's no tyranny of the majority?

The US Senate is an anti democratic institution. Unfortunately, the "tyranny of the majority" is the best we can do. The US Senate is really just the "tyranny of the minority". In any form of government there has to be some kind of "tyranny" to get things done; although "tyranny" is just an inflammatory term.

And if you don't like the fact that 60% of Canadians did not vote for the Liberals, I suggest you agitate for proportional representation. But if you do Alberta will be really sunk, because PR favours left leaning parties: the NDP would do very well under it.

quote: Your question isn't relevant in the first place! I'm not complaining about the tax system at all, I have no idea why you're hooked on how we pay taxes.

Quoting Asher:

quote: Albertans are just pissed off because Alberta gives more money than it receives to Ottawa (as one of two "have" provinces that help fund the other provinces) and Ottawa kinda plugs their ears to Alberta's wishes politically, constantly..

In what way does Alberta give more money to Ottawa that could not be fairly described as a "tax"; taxes being money that the government legally collects?

You don't have to throw petty insults because you are losing the argument. I have a scholarship and I teach because I got very high grades in the subject which is the recognised indication of competence in the area.

	24-02-2003 09:06									#41
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quote: Originally posted by Asher How many decades has Alberta pushed for Senate Reform... The idea is that BECAUSE nothing is changing, that's why there's a separatist movement. The Senate won't be reformed because the current system benefits the people in central Canada. Without Central Canada's support, there will never be senate reform. Why would central Canada give up its stranglehold on power to those "wingnuts" in Alberta by giving a fair system of government which can help protect smaller provinces from their tyranny?

And what other mechanism would you suggest for Senate reform than democratic means?

	24-02-2003 09:09									#42
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quote: Originally posted by obiwan18 Agathon, regarding your qualifications, read my sig. Sava can be eloquent at times.

Can you imagine PhD applications if this was true?

	24-02-2003 09:13									#43
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon Given the amount of seats the Liberals get I don't see how this would make that much of a difference. Again, this is not a sufficient reason for separation.

I'm intrigued -- what is sufficient reason for separation?

As I see it, any time a region feels they'd be better off without their country, they should be able to tell the other country to piss off, then take their ball and go home...

The government exists to serve all citizens, not just the majority. Why don't you sit and think about that for a bit...

quote: That's the case for a lot of people. It was certainly the case for me before New Zealand changed to PR and I didn't advocate revolt then. Why are you so special?

I love that -- "revolt". That's a good one...
I hope you realize the difference between revolt and legal secession...

quote: The US Senate is an anti democratic institution.

Oh please. If you want to be anal about the definition about democracy, anything but a direct democracy is an anti-democratic institution.

A democracy should exist to serve the majority while preserving the rights of the minority.

In my eyes, the US Senate is certainly democratic, and actually their system is far more democratic than what we have in Canada.

quote: Unfortunately, the "tyranny of the majority" is the best we can do.

"Culture of defeatism" quote comes to mind

quote: The US Senate is really just the "tyranny of the minority".

Dig! Dig! Dig!

quote: And if you don't like the fact that 60% of Canadians did not vote for the Liberals, I suggest you agitate for proportional representation. But if you do Alberta will be really sunk, because PR favours left leaning parties: the NDP would do very well under it.

Alberta's been advocating reform of any sort to the senate for decades. I don't know if you've been here long enough to know that. There is a point where you have to stop saying that we should advocate some kind of change, because we've been doing that forever, and Canada wants nothing of it...

quote: In what way does Alberta give more money to Ottawa that could not be fairly described as a "tax"; taxes being money that the government legally collects?

Do your research if you're interested. Look up federal transfer payments and equalization. Two provinces have a "net transfer" out of their province: Alberta and Ontario. Alberta loses $2600 per capita, Ontario $1800 per capita. All other provinces gain financially from transfer and equalization payments.

quote: You don't have to throw petty insults because you are losing the argument.

I haven't thrown any petty insults, and I'm certainly not losing the argument. You're at a disadvantage since you obviously haven't been in the country for too long and understand that saying things like "you should support reform of this or that", because that would imply we haven't been doing that for decades.

	24-02-2003 09:14									#44
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Asher:
You'd have to hope for some good deals with Canada for free trade. Otherwise, you'll see most of your profits eaten up through duties.

IMHO, Alberta secession would be more viable with BC. We're just starting to turn the corner economically, after 10 years of NDP governments.

quote: In what way does Alberta give more money to Ottawa that could not be fairly described as a "tax"; taxes being money that the government legally collects?

Agathon:

What about federal transfer payments to 'have-not' provinces? This taxation does nothing for economic development in the East.

They tried to reduce transfer payments to Quebec, but Quebec protested, so they kept the same rates, despite improving economic conditions.

Who's wearing the pants in this relationship?

	24-02-2003 09:19									#45
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quote: Originally posted by obiwan18 Asher: You'd have to hope for some good deals with Canada for free trade. Otherwise, you'll see most of your profits eaten up through duties.

If the Alberta seceded, I'm fairly sure the US would welcome even less trade restrictions between the two countries, particularly when they're concerned about oil reserves.

And the US market can more than make up for any lack of demand caused by Alberta seceding from Canada.

A better question would be: Where would Canada suddenly get its products from, if not Alberta? If there's extra duties, we'll just raise our damn prices to cover them. It's not like they're going to go ask Russia for natural gas now, are they?

quote: IMHO, Alberta secession would be more viable with BC. We're just starting to turn the corner economically, after 10 years of NDP governments.

I'm not too sure. BC is too left wing for my tastes.

	24-02-2003 09:24									#46
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quote: A better question would be: Where would Canada suddenly get its products from, if not Alberta? If there's extra duties, we'll just raise our damn prices to cover them. It's not like they're going to go ask Russia for natural gas now, are they?

We could go to war.
Raise the prices high enough, and your American partners will give us a hand.

Secondly, those price increases will make other oil more competitive, especially considering the higher intrinsic costs involved in Tar Sands.

And I notice, Canada just needs oil and natural gas.
So much for a 'diversified' economy.

	24-02-2003 09:29									#47
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quote: Originally posted by obiwan18 Raise the prices high enough, and your American partners will give us a hand.

That's assuming they can supply it. The US doesn't export natural gas.

I just did some research:
Alberta produces over 80% of Canada's natural gas, 55% of Canada's conventional oil (including offshore), 100% of its synthetic oil, and 49% of the coal.

Canada can't just import stuff like natural gas from the US when the US doesn't export it.

Plus, I'd imagine Canada would have equivalent duties and taxes for Alberta and the US if we seceded.

quote: Secondly, those price increases will make other oil more competitive, especially considering the higher intrinsic costs involved in Tar Sands.

You'd also have to factor in transportation costs.

quote: So much for a 'diversified' economy.

In my research I also discovered that as of today, energy only makes up 21% of Alberta's GDP, not 27%. I don't know where BBC got their info.

But yea, diversified.

	24-02-2003 09:30									#48
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quote: Originally posted by Asher I'm intrigued -- what is sufficient reason for separation? As I see it, any time a region feels they'd be better off without their country, they should be able to tell the other country to piss off, then take their ball and go home...

Okay, what if the oil regions in Alberta say the same thing to the province, that they want independence because all the rest of the province does is leeching off them? What if the oil companies operating the fields and refineries want independence from Alberta?

All I am seeing is wishful thinking from a rich teenager.

	24-02-2003 09:31									#49
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quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger Okay, what if the oil region in Alberta says the same thing to the province, that they want independence because all the rest of the province does is leeching off them?

"oil region"?
There is no "oil region" of Alberta. Silly Urban.

Energy is all over. North, south, east, west...

But to answer your question in theory: Sure, they can secede if they want. We don't need oil, it just makes life easier. And seeing as Alberta doesn't have a problem with rural alienation, I don't see the issue.

All of the corporate HQs and whatnot tend to be based in Calgary anyway.

	24-02-2003 09:38									#50
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quote: Originally posted by Asher I'm intrigued -- what is sufficient reason for separation?

You tell me. I'm not the one arguing for it. Thus I don't have to show anything more than that disagreement with a democratically elected government is not sufficient; and I believe I showed this conclusively earlier.

quote: As I see it, any time a region feels they'd be better off without their country, they should be able to tell the other country to piss off, then take their ball and go home...

But, as I showed you earlier, this would be the end of democracy. And you have provided no reason as to why a region is so special, rather than any other minority entity. I'm waiting....

quote: The government exists to serve all citizens, not just the majority. Why don't you sit and think about that for a bit...

Fair enough, but that is irrelevant. When there are disagreements over public policy, should we go with the majority opinion or the minority opinion?

quote: I love that -- "revolt". That's a good one... I hope you realize the difference between revolt and legal secession...

You are getting pretty desperate if you have to argue semantics.

quote: Oh please. If you want to be anal about the definition about democracy, anything but a direct democracy is an anti-democratic institution.

Now you are grasping at straws. The most democratic system we could have would be direct democracy. However, for certain reasons this is not a practical proposition. However, if you agree to this then you agree that a system is more democratic the more it approximates to one person one vote with each vote counting equally for parliamentary representation. If you agree to that then PR is certainly more democratic than the Westminster system and it is certainly more democratic than the US Senate, where the vote of one Wyoming resident counts for the same as that of thousands of Californians.

quote: A democracy should exist to serve the majority while preserving the rights of the minority.

Unless you specify what rights these are this is an empty argument. It looks to me as though this is Newspeak for allowing the minority to overrule the majority, which is anti-democratic. And again - if you want to enshrine these rights in a constitution, is that constitution to be enacted by the vote of a majority or a minority.

quote: In my eyes, the US Senate is certainly democratic, and actually their system is far more democratic than what we have in Canada.

Then your eyes deceive you. For what is less democratic than one person's vote counting for far more than another's.

quote: "Culture of defeatism" quote comes to mind

No - Pericles comes to mind actually.

quote: Dig! Dig! Dig!

This to me shows the anti-democratic nature of the separatist movement.

quote: Alberta's been advocating reform of any sort to the senate for decades. I don't know if you've been here long enough to know that. There is a point where you have to stop saying that we should advocate some kind of change, because we've been doing that forever, and Canada wants nothing of it...

So what? Many minorities have been advocating political reform for years. Why are you so special.

quote: Do your research if you're interested. Look up federal transfer payments and equalization. Two provinces have a "net transfer" out of their province: Alberta and Ontario. Alberta loses $2600 per capita, Ontario $1800 per capita. All other provinces gain financially from transfer and equalization payments.

Where does this money come from? From Albertan taxpayers by any chance? If it does - it's a tax.

quote: I haven't thrown any petty insults, and I'm certainly not losing the argument.

Oh really? The tax thing looked pretty blatant to me.

quote: You're at a disadvantage since you obviously haven't been in the country for too long and understand that saying things like "you should support reform of this or that", because that would imply we haven't been doing that for decades.

It doesn't matter how long you have been doing it for, you still don't have a majority and this is a democracy.

You need to show:

Why regional minorities deserve special status, but not individuals or other polities or minorities? Or, if you believe everyone has the right to disregard a democratically elected government whenever it suits them (which you seemed to say before), then whither democracy?

Look I don't care about the other stuff; it is just window dressing. If you could answer the last question the debate could move along.

Until later.

	24-02-2003 09:39									#51
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quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger Okay, what if the oil regions in Alberta say the same thing to the province, that they want independence because all the rest of the province does is leeching off them? What if the oil companies operating the fields and refineries want independence from Alberta? All I am seeing is wishful thinking from a rich teenager.

Nice one UR - I've been trying for an hour now to get him to see this.

	24-02-2003 09:41									#52
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How is that the same?

The oil companoes are well represented in Alberta I am sure.

Jon Miller

	24-02-2003 09:45									#53
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Hahaha as luck would so have it my Dad just gave me a pattented Liberal bashing rant on the ride home. Turns out he's all for a seperate Alberta if the Liberals are elected by default again - this guy is so frustrated with the current system that I would no doubt be surprised to see him headfirst in a seperation campaign. I can't say I share the same sentiments, as I love BC and Ontario as well as Alberta... and the maritimes and Quebec are problems that could possibly be solved by removing paintchips as a primary foodsource to breastfeeding mothers

THEN WE CAN SPEND ELEVENTY TRILLION DOLLARS REGISTERING TURNIPS AND THROWING OUR FARMERS IN JAIL FOR HAVING ILLEGAL GOPHER RIFLES, BECAUSE THAT WILL HALT THE MURDERS JAMAICAN/VIETNAMESE/SERB "REFUGEES" IN NORTH YORK ARE COMMITTING WITH SUBMACHINE GUNS

Agathon - your unprovoked tone is a little too hot for me to handle! Pull out that sassy brand tampon, then we'll chat. Actually no, I'll let Asher continue to make a moron out of you for now

	24-02-2003 09:47									#54
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon You tell me.

I did...

quote: I'm not the one arguing for it.

Agathon, if you're going to keep saying "this is not sufficient reason for seceding", you're going to have to tell us what IS sufficient reason...

quote: And you have provided no reason as to why a region is so special, rather than any other minority entity. I'm waiting....

It's a region with specific interests that are very important to us, not important at all to the rest of Canada, and as such the federal government doesn't even consider them...

quote: Fair enough, but that is irrelevant. When there are disagreements over public policy, should we go with the majority opinion or the minority opinion?

A majority opinion while ensuring it's not unfairly targeting a minority. Again, look at Kyoto: The way the Liberals currently have it rigged will shelter vote-rich Ontario and hammer Alberta. Should that be permitted, or should all provinces equally take the hit from Kyoto?

quote: Now you are grasping at straws.

You're the one that called the US senate undemocratic, when they're ELECTED. Remind the foreigners reading this thread how Canada's senate is made up, and explain how this is remotely democratic and why it hasn't been changed.

quote: Unless you specify what rights these are this is an empty argument.

Easy. The right to our own resources, as guaranteed to us in 1930, but then stripped away from us on whim in the early 80s by a greedy Frenchman in Ottawa named Trudeau...

How about the federal government constantly getting involved with provincial health care issues here?

There is a large list, if you wanted to look up why there's western alienation...

quote: So what? Many minorities have been advocating political reform for years. Why are you so special.

Because we've got the resources to survive on our own. We don't need Canada to survive. Financially it's holding us back right now, in addition to politically frustrating us.

quote: Where does this money come from? From Albertan taxpayers by any chance? If it does - it's a tax.

Of COURSE it comes from the tax! That's NOT THE ISSUE though. The issue is the distribution of funds from Ottawa, which is related to Ottawa's interests in province's problems. Ottawa takes money from Alberta and gives it to other provinces, constantly. That's fine, as long as Ottawa doesn't give us the shaft all the time, all right? I'm not taking issue with the tax system at all. Okay...? I'm taking issue with how Ottawa can do whatever they want with it, shafting particular regions constantly.

	24-02-2003 09:47									#55
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Asher, you misunderstand.

The US would give us a hand with the war, not with the oil, since they benefit from cheap Alberta oil.

We'd buy mideast oil if you jack oil prices too high, so there is a limit to how high you can price gouge.

And since Canada does not need your other products, they can jack up the duties on everything else, as Alberta really has no other place to ship.

With BC, you don't need to worry about this, since you would have access to the Pacific Rim.

You'd just have to deal with all those liberals.

If BC and Alberta were to unite as a seperate country where would the capital be?

	24-02-2003 09:48									#56
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon Nice one UR - I've been trying for an hour now to get him to see this.

He hasn't helped you at all.

He's displayed an incredible ignorance about Canada, and so have you.

	24-02-2003 09:50									#57
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quote: Originally posted by obiwan18 If BC and Alberta were to unite as a seperate country where would the capital be?

Obviously Banff

The hotel would look really good with a massive parliament tower and gun turrets placed atop it!

	24-02-2003 09:52									#58
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picture picture

we want a design

Jon Miller

	24-02-2003 09:52									#59
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon Nice one UR - I've been trying for an hour now to get him to see this.

Then what right did we have to become a sovereign nation state from the British empire, you semantic tweaking little pr*ck?

	24-02-2003 09:53									#60
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I mean, youare an architect, righT?

jon Miller