24-02-2003 12:13									#121
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quote: Originally posted by Tingkai The Liberals just raised the military budget by $1 billion a year so according to your logic, the military supports the liberals and therefore, since you claim the military is aligned with Albertans, Albertans vote Liberal.

The Liberals rasied the military budget by $1B (which is actually pathetically small when you talk about a military, but whatever) because of the bad press they got recently.

Like when they made their own uniforms going to Afghanistan since the Canadian Military couldn't afford tan-colored uniforms.

quote: You assume that members of the CF are right wing military nuts. They are not. They are a cross-section of Canadian society.

Again, you have nothing to back up your "assumption".

I think it's safe to assume most soldiers are "right wing military nuts", though, in the same vein that most NDPers are "left wing socialist nuts".

	24-02-2003 12:20									#122
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quote: Originally posted by Asher Like when they made their own uniforms going to Afghanistan since the Canadian Military couldn't afford tan-colored uniforms.

Tan-coloured uniforms are in the pipeline. It is not about money, it is about priorities.

quote: Originally posted by Asher Again, you have nothing to back up your "assumption". I think it's safe to assume most soldiers are "right wing military nuts", though, in the same vein that most NDPers are "left wing socialist nuts".

You're the one making the claim, you have to back up your assumption.

As for my comments, they are based on the fact that I was a member of the CF. The people I knew represented all aspects of Canadian society.

I can also tell you that a few years ago there was a major concern about the fact that the BQ/PQ had support from within the military. As well, many right wingers have questioned why the NDP gets support on military bases.

	24-02-2003 12:23									#123
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quote: Originally posted by Tingkai Tan-coloured uniforms are in the pipeline. It is not about money, it is about priorities.

You buy this?
How many months will they be in the "pipeline"?

quote: You're the one making the claim, you have to back up your assumption.

I wouldn't know the first place to look. You've obviously seen relevant polls. Please link them, otherwise don't dismiss my claims.

quote: As for my comments, they are based on the fact that I was a member of the CF. The people I knew represented all aspects of Canadian society.

Define member of. What kind of soldier were you?
Please note that I don't give a rats ass about the admin goofoffs in Ottawa...I was talking about the soldiers, the ones who would fight.

	24-02-2003 12:29									#124
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That's on behalf of all the fine people working at DNDHQ.

You really have no idea about life in the Canadian Forces.

	24-02-2003 12:31									#125
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So I take it you were a desk jockey then. That's what I thought.

One of my friends (who is serving a peacekeeping mission right now, actually) is even farther right than I am, and all of his friends from the armoury that I've met were all right bastards.

Something tells me lots of the Federal employee desk-jockies may be left wing, but the soldiers sure as hell aren't in general.

Link it or drop it.

	24-02-2003 12:35									#126
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By the way, make I take the opportunity to laugh at how low the DND's entrance requirements must be if they would hire somebody who would consider invading a province and turning their major cities into warzones if they seceded.

	24-02-2003 13:29									#127
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Asher: you love talking as if you're an expert, when in fact you know nothing.

The CF is so small that most of the "admin goofoffs" in Ottawa as you call them have come off operational duties and will go back on operational duties.

Those "desk jockies" include men and women who have worked, and will work, as front-line soldier, sailors and airmen.

They have more balls then you ever will.

As for the friends of your friends, like I said, the Forces represent a cross-section of Canadian society. In an Alberta-based reserved unit, you will find right wingers. In Sask-based reserved unit, you will find left-wingers.

I know you will find this hard to believe, but the members of the Forces are loyal Canadians who will fight to protect Canada.

You will probably not understand that every member of the CF swears an oath to defend Caada and obey lawful orders. If that means we have to fight in the streets of Calgary, we will.

I know this is all strange to you. A selfish little boy would have trouble understanding what it means to serve your country.

	24-02-2003 13:37									#128
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quote: Originally posted by Tingkai Asher: you love talking as if you're an expert, when in fact you know nothing.

I'm not an expert, and I don't pretend to be one, but I do know that you're a journalism major that lives in Asia and have shown a complete ineptitude when it comes to most anything on these forums, but you think you're smarter than everyone else.

I'm no expert, but I know when I see an idiot.

quote: They have more balls then you ever will.

I'd never join the military, because I'd never be able to kill someone if I was asked to. If that means I don't have balls, so be it.

quote: I know you will find this hard to believe, but the members of the Forces are loyal Canadians who will fight to protect Canada.

They're there to protect their homeland. If there's ever a civil war (in your extremely unlikely and laughable scenerio), they sure as hell all won't side with Canada. Especially those units based in Alberta.

quote: You will probably not understand that every member of the CF swears an oath to defend Caada and obey lawful orders. If that means we have to fight in the streets of Calgary, we will.

If the units are from Calgary, they sure as hell won't fight in the streets of Calgary.

You've obviously never actually served in the CF, you're making it up. If you have served in the CF, describe what years you were involved, your rank/position, and what you did.

If there's a civil war, the "Canadian Army" would be split as well, don't be so naive...

quote: I know this is all strange to you. A selfish little boy would have trouble understanding what it means to serve your country.

You sound a bit too nationalistic for my tastes.

There's more to life than your country. Get over it. If my country pisses me off, I'll leave.

I'm waiting for you to try that argument you've tried before, about all the people who've died for our country and that's why we shouldn't leave it. That was one of my favorites, because it doesn't make any sense. Those people died for the idea of the country, the freedom of the people within it. If the people of a province secede and still have as much freedom as before (probably more, actually) in a place that makes them happier, that in no way disgraces the soldiers' memories.

	24-02-2003 13:50									#129
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Asher, the military expert.

	24-02-2003 13:52									#130
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Are you trying to be the next blackice or something?

Let's recap:
Tingkai:

quote: Asher: you love talking as if you're an expert, when in fact you know nothing.

Me:

quote: I'm not an expert, and I don't pretend to be one

Tingkai:

quote: Asher, the military expert.

	24-02-2003 14:06									#131
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quote: Originally posted by Asher I'm not an expert... If there's ever a civil war ... they sure as hell all won't side with Canada. Especially those units based in Alberta. If the units are from Calgary, they sure as hell won't fight in the streets of Calgary. If there's a civil war, the "Canadian Army" would be split as well, don't be so naive...

Yup, you know the people in the Forces better than anyone. Your crystal ball is amazing.

	24-02-2003 14:11									#132
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It doesn't take a military expert to know that if a soldier is from Calgary, he isn't going be shooting at his friends and family in the city because he's in the "Canadian Army". I'm really very surprised that you're being so incredibly stupid about this.

First about the "Canada invading Alberta" bullshit, then about the concept of civil war splitting up the army as well as the population...

I would have thought it'd be fairly common sense that in the event of a civil war, some people will desert the army and choose the other side. Particularly when they're being told to invade their home town.

Well Tingkai, as much fun as it's been arguing with you, I've got to go to bed. I've got a terrible headache now, and I don't know if it's from you or from my headcold, but either way, grr!

Let us know when you come back down to Earth.

G'night.

	24-02-2003 14:20									#133
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quote: Originally posted by Asher I've got a terrible headache now,

Well, it sure ain't from thinking hard.

	24-02-2003 14:36									#134
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You're the expert Asher.

You say the army would never be sent into a province to fight the separatists and to take control of streets. That would just be bullshit. Would never happen, eh? Sure.

That's got to be as unlikely as declaring martial law in Canada. Never would happen, according to the History and Future of Canada by Asher, the expert on everything.

The army would revolt if they were sent into the streets, according to you and you must be right cause you're an expert on the Forces and an expert of Canadian History.

By the way, have you figured out what happened in 1885 and 1837?

	24-02-2003 14:45									#135
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A few questions if you don't mind...

How much oil and gas does Alberta have? Does it compare to Alaska? Kuwait? How long will the reserves hold out?

Just trying to grasp the magnitude of the thing. Alberta should stick w/ Canada if there isn't much oil, yes?

	24-02-2003 15:38									#136
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I did a search. The stuff is tied into 'oil sand' and needs processing. The tech is there to develope some of the oil sands, but not all. If the tech were developed then the oil would exceed that of Saudi Arabia.

	24-02-2003 23:41									#137
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quote: Originally posted by Asher Are you intentionally setting up the strawmen and hoping I won't catch them, or do you have reading comprehension problems? You're not even Canadian, let alone Albertan, so you sure as hell shouldn't be explaining to people "what Albertans want". Capiche?

This is too rich.

One way of finding out what Albertans want is to look at what they are saying. One can read the newspaper or watch Ralph Klein on television. It's no different than knowing that the Germans don't want war. It's not the same deal as finding out what women want.

Anyway, you've effectively lost the argument since your claim that provinces can separate unilaterally has been shown to be false and you still haven't answered the question I have put to you about five times now and you still haven't managed to evade the accusations of unilateral separation being anti-democratic.

So once more:

Given that Alberta has no right to secede without the consent of a majority of other provinces, what special rights to secession do Albertans have that other Canadians don't, when they don't like what the elected government of Canada does to them?

Or:

If you think anyone has the right to withdraw themselves from the jurisdiction of the Government of Canada if they don't like its policies, how can you still be a supporter of democracy when this would entail its destruction?

If you can't answer these questions then how about you just admit that you need a better argument than your current position.

	25-02-2003 02:32									#138
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quote: If the tech were developed then the oil would exceed that of Saudi Arabia.

*whispers to Bush*

Forget Iraq. Invade Alberta!

	26-02-2003 10:51									#139
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon Given that Alberta has no right to secede without the consent of a majority of other provinces, what special rights to secession do Albertans have that other Canadians don't, when they don't like what the elected government of Canada does to them?

Incorrect. Fundamental rights and Canadian laws are not equivalent.

Albertans have the right that every other newer nation of the twentieth century enjoyed. The right to self-determination.

quote: Or: If you think anyone has the right to withdraw themselves from the jurisdiction of the Government of Canada if they don't like its policies, how can you still be a supporter of democracy when this would entail its destruction? If you can't answer these questions then how about you just admit that you need a better argument than your current position.

Entail it's destruction? Grab a clue.

Britain had MPs at the time the 13 colonies fought off the yoke of the far away tyrants.

So too did Britain, France, the Netherlands, etc. have fully democratic institutions for the majority in the important regions when their colonies told them to shove it and packed up for the greener pastures of independence.

What about Scotland? Do the Scots have some rights that Albertans do not enjoy?

	26-02-2003 11:00									#140
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If Alberta seperates, the USA will like your bones clean, crack them open, and suck the marrow. You'd be complete idiots to leave Canada.

	26-02-2003 11:02									#141
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Right. Thanks for that vote of confidence.

I'm sure you are a completely reliable seer. I'm sure people in Quebec and Ontario are counting on us seeing things the way you do to keep us in line.

	26-02-2003 11:02									#142
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They'd like our bones that much?

	26-02-2003 11:08									#143
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara If Alberta seperates, the USA will like your bones clean, crack them open, and suck the marrow. You'd be complete idiots to leave Canada.

You've already trolled this a couple days ago, comrade.

You then didn't reply to the comments which made fun of your silliness.

Like, for example, your assertion that BC would be accepted by Alberta would not be.

	26-02-2003 11:14									#144
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara If Alberta seperates, the USA will like your bones clean, crack them open, and suck the marrow.

You mean like we did Texas?

	26-02-2003 11:24									#145
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quote: Originally posted by Lancer I did a search. The stuff is tied into 'oil sand' and needs processing. The tech is there to develope some of the oil sands, but not all. If the tech were developed then the oil would exceed that of Saudi Arabia.

First off, there is more than the oil sands.

Second off, the tech to develop the oil sands has been developed here and will continue to be developed here. More than Saudi Arabia? You bet your Yankee ass!

	26-02-2003 11:26									#146
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quote: Originally posted by The Mad Monk You mean like we did Texas?

Alberta ain't gonna become part of the US. It's gonna be a neo-colony. Think Mexico.

	26-02-2003 11:26									#147
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Mexico? Think Canada.

	26-02-2003 11:27									#148
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Think Puerto Rico.

	26-02-2003 11:28									#149
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quote: Originally posted by Asher You've already trolled this a couple days ago, comrade. You then didn't reply to the comments which made fun of your silliness. Like, for example, your assertion that BC would be accepted by Alberta would not be.

I didn't reply then because I was away from the boards for a few days.

Anyway, the report I read was in the 1980s, so there's no way I'm gonna bother traking it down for you. Needless to say, the psoition of the State Department then (1986) was that we weren't interested in any part of Canada except BC, and that mainly for a land connection with Alaska.

	26-02-2003 11:29									#150
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quote: Originally posted by Asher Think Puerto Rico.

Exactly.