07-03-2003 20:27									#31
	Remove this text

If the 3rd or 4th city is given a Barracks and a queue with NMs and Warriors/Swordsmen, I could live with that.

	07-03-2003 23:01									#32
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

quote: Originally posted by Trip Being that Apolyton will be the one with the Granary, that's fairly obvious. The next city (most likely 3-3-3-3) we should build a Barracks in ASAP. It's far away from any potential threat since it's tucked behind Apolyton near the jungle, and most possible threats will come from the W-NW-N direction.

I'm glad you had 4 three's there in that description and not just 3 of them.

	08-03-2003 04:57									#33
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

The way I see things:

Priority on Granaries ASAP in first two cities, and Barracks ASAP in the 3rd. Apolyton will produce a NM-Settler combo every 8 turns, the second city can focus on Workers mainly (anyone seen that jungle? We can see more jungle tiles than anything else right now, unfortunately), with the 3rd city focusing on vet Warriors to upgrade to Swordsmen and/or NMs.

	11-03-2003 01:59									#34
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

I think we should go Warrior/Worker in at least our next 3 cities. We just don't have the tiles to make a Granary at this point all that useful, and the extra Warriors could allow us to forgo NM's (at least between most Settlers) in Apolyton in favor of quicker Settlers.

Given that we only have to defend 1 way intially (S), A high quantity of Warriors is going to be just as effective as a lower number of NM's. Sending 2 Warriors with each Settler is more efficient and gives us better survivability in almost all cases. The 'just to trigger their GA' is taken out of the equation, as well as the 'maybe we get lucky and take out their escort' option. With 2 escorts, even though killing one is more likely, they can't possibly kill 2 unless they are using some extraordinarily weird scouting technique. If they attack, we can retreat our Settler/Warrior that survives, or continue on, depending on the outcome.

	11-03-2003 02:31									#35
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

The problem comes later when we need to do something with all those Warriors. If we don't have iron, then we have a huge quantity of obsolete units (we don't want to be supporting a bunch of extra units yet). Disbanding them in cities is a possibility, but the quantity of shields you get is so low, it's hardly worth it...

	11-03-2003 03:49									#36
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

We don't break the 4 unit per city free support barrier if we keep pumping out Settlers from Apolyton (among other places). Warriors won't go obsolete for a while, and we can always hold onto them to upgrade to Maces, which will probably show up very shortly after we get in a Republic (when we'd start paying support costs) if the tech rate PTWDG is any indication.

Also we don't have to flood with Warriors forever, just at the start. If we run into a scouting Warrior from another team with a Settler/NM pair, the odds of our GA getting tripped are quite high. If I were in a 'good' starting location as the other team, it would be a sure thing, if the start wasn't so good, I'd play nice.

To clarify another point in my post, cities 2-4 need to build a Warrior and Worker first, then I could see city 2 building a Granary.

	11-03-2003 09:04									#37
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

And you would have to think there is going to be iron in the hills and mountains to the north. Other than isolation, this start has to have something going for it.

Then again - jungle and dessert and zippo out of three goody huts does make you wonder ....

	11-03-2003 09:46									#38
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

quote: Originally posted by Trip The problem comes later when we need to do something with all those Warriors. If we don't have iron, then we have a huge quantity of obsolete units (we don't want to be supporting a bunch of extra units yet). Disbanding them in cities is a possibility, but the quantity of shields you get is so low, it's hardly worth it...

They could be used for their happiness effects while we're still despots. Wait, what level of difficulty are we playing in, chieftain? Friggin bugs...

	11-03-2003 10:05									#39
	Put an end to popups!

quote: Originally posted by Trip The problem comes later when we need to do something with all those Warriors. If we don't have iron, then we have a huge quantity of obsolete units (we don't want to be supporting a bunch of extra units yet). Disbanding them in cities is a possibility, but the quantity of shields you get is so low, it's hardly worth it...

Iron. IRON. IRROOONNNN!!!

(image of Bruce Banner turning into the Incredible Hulk)

	11-03-2003 10:07									#40
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by Theseus Iron. IRON. IRROOONNNN!!! (image of Bruce Banner turning into the Incredible Hulk)

If we don't have it, then it won't matter either way.

	12-03-2003 10:00									#41
	Tired of ads?

quote: Originally posted by BetaHound And you would have to think there is going to be iron in the hills and mountains to the north. Other than isolation, this start has to have something going for it. Then again - jungle and dessert and zippo out of three goody huts does make you wonder ....

hi ,

and then to say we could have restarted , ......

we shall never know to what that could have turned into , .....

have a nice day

	12-03-2003 22:26									#42
	Support Apolyton

After W3 moves in the next couple of turns, I will be posting an updated, current (Turn 18) test scenario, as well as a couple of polls asking where we should be going economically. Just trying to give everyone a heads up, and reassure some that we're not giving up here!


Dominae

	14-03-2003 06:46									#43
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

As Minister of War, I officially request that the Ministry of the Interior consider the possibility of building our 3rd city to the west of Apolyton for the express purpose of sealing off enemy scouts from the northern peninsula.

	14-03-2003 06:52									#44
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

As long we we dont hurt our ability to defend ourselves and our commerce/production capabilities. Its a nice idea, but not at the expense of our own development at this point our expansion.

	14-03-2003 06:54									#45
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

quote: Originally posted by Trip As Minister of War, I officially request that the Ministry of the Interior consider the possibility of building our 3rd city to the west of Apolyton for the express purpose of sealing off enemy scouts from the northern peninsula.

You're aware that this would not cut off their route entirely if done with only one city, right?


Dominae

	14-03-2003 06:58									#46
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

quote: Originally posted by Dominae You're aware that this would not cut off their route entirely if done with only one city, right? Dominae

If you block off 3-5 tiles with a city, the MoW will take care of the rest.

	14-03-2003 06:58									#47
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by CiverDan As long we we dont hurt our ability to defend ourselves and our commerce/production capabilities. Its a nice idea, but not at the expense of our own development at this point our expansion.

The leverage we would hold by keeping the peninsula secret is worth it, IMO, as long as we're not destroyed.

	14-03-2003 07:02									#48
	Suffering from ads?

quote: Originally posted by Trip If you block off 3-5 tiles with a city, the MoW will take care of the rest.

That's exactly the type of thing that will get any team very angry at us. Without actual borders, another team is going to resent our move to block their exploration up North with military units. If they want us not to explore South, then we can reach some sort of agreement, in which case we have no use of those units, or of the city (although we'll settle there eventually). This is up to the diplomats, of course, so I will have to defer your request to them.


Dominae

	14-03-2003 07:06									#49
	Put an end to popups!

quote: Originally posted by Dominae That's exactly the type of thing that will get any team very angry at us. Without actual borders, another team is going to resent our move to block their exploration up North with military units. If they want us not to explore South, then we can reach some sort of agreement, in which case we have no use of those units, or of the city (although we'll settle there eventually). This is up to the diplomats, of course, so I will have to defer your request to them. Dominae

Either way, if we do nothing about it, they will explore our peninsula eventually. The more we can keep hidden about ourselves means the less they will know about what we're capable of, which is often a great diplomatic tool in itself. The difference between knowing NOTHING about what land a team has and knowing they only have desert, hills and mountains is a very big one.

	14-03-2003 07:11									#50
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

Actually, from what I can tell, we can block their scouting with another city...

	14-03-2003 07:12									#51
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

I understand the value of keeping information from another team. What I'm saying is that the other team will know that we're doing this, and will resent it (no matter how friendly we are in other respects). So if we're actually going the "peaceful neighbors" route, blocking their exploration attempts will not help. We have to look out for our own self-interests without looking like opportunists. That's a very important juggling act, and one that I'm glad I do not have to deal with.

In any case, it looks like the logical position for our second city (IMO) is 222 from Apolyton. This does not block them off, but at least moves us in their direction. Plus the site has access to the Game tile and is easily roaded to.


Dominae

	14-03-2003 07:14									#52
	Support Apolyton

quote: Originally posted by Trip Actually, from what I can tell, we can block their scouting with another city...

Explain this to me.

Without knowing what is directly to our West, I'm cannot see how you're so confident of this. Remember that our future cities will not expand their borders, so their "blocking" effect is quite limited when taken alone.


Dominae

	14-03-2003 07:22									#53
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

quote: Originally posted by Dominae Explain this to me. Without knowing what is directly to our West, I'm cannot see how you're so confident of this. Remember that our future cities will not expand their borders, so their "blocking" effect is quite limited when taken alone. Dominae

If we build a city 2-4-4 from Apolyton (on the hill), it would block off any progress north.

	14-03-2003 07:41									#54
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

You're assuming there is water directly to the West of the Hill you speak of. If not, a Persian Warrior can walk due North of the capital and bypass our blockade entirely.


Dominae

	14-03-2003 08:00									#55
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

Only if they want to respect our cultural borders. If they aren't going to respect our 'claim' I don't see why they would respect the cultural borders.

EDIT: this is in respect to the coastal site

The problem with the actual site is that we can only see 1 tile of 2 food that would be in the borders of that city, and it's an unshielded grassland that we want to eventually Irrigate to make the plains viable. That means it's probably at best a 10 turn Worker factory for a good portion of the early game, setting us back quite a bit (a Warrior every 5 turns until we would have settled that site anyways).

If we could find a good tile around the site then the drawbacks wouldn't be so great.

	14-03-2003 08:04									#56
	Increase Your PM Length

The problem with building on the Hill (244) is that we have a lot of decent food tiles (potentially), but not very much production outside of Apolyton's city radius (though in the N we have the opposite problem). We should preserve the Hills to be mined for production, otherwise we stand to be more over popped and under productive.

	14-03-2003 08:05									#57
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

quote: Originally posted by Aeson Only if they want to respect our cultural borders. If they aren't going to respect our 'claim' I don't see why they would respect the cultural borders. EDIT: this is in respect to the coastal site

The issue of cultural borders VS unclaimed territory "started a war" in the previous game. Do not underestimate the effect of wandering into cultural borders. Whether or not a civ has "claimed" an area is generally ignored if there's no color covering the area.

quote: The problem with the actual site is that we can only see 1 tile of 2 food that would be in the borders of that city, and it's an unshielded grassland that we want to eventually Irrigate to make the plains viable. That means it's probably at best a 10 turn Worker factory for a good portion of the early game, setting us back quite a bit (a Warrior every 5 turns until we would have settled that site anyways). If we could find a good tile around the site then the drawbacks wouldn't be so great.

It also has access to 2 shielded grassland tiles near Apolyton, and 3 more unshielded grassland tiles in total. Whether the site at 1-1-1 or at 2-4-4 we end up with the same general set of tiles being worked.

	14-03-2003 08:08									#58
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

quote: Originally posted by Aeson The problem with building on the Hill (244) is that we have a lot of decent food tiles (potentially), but not very much production outside of Apolyton's city radius. We should preserve the Hills to be mined for production, otherwise we stand to be more over popped and under productive.

I knew someone would bring this up...

I'm trying to find possibilities to make sure they can't scout our peninsula. While protecting the MoI layout that's already been established is probably to be expected, I think it would benefit us most in the short and long-term to try to find a way to block them off instead. Maybe one of you two can think of a way to do so without upsetting the layout as much. I'm not the expert in this area, so if you could find a better alternative, I would appreciate it.

	14-03-2003 08:12									#59
	Support Apolyton

quote: Originally posted by Dominae You're assuming there is water directly to the West of the Hill you speak of. If not, a Persian Warrior can walk due North of the capital and bypass our blockade entirely. Dominae

Take a look at the image I've posted of the area.



Since there's two coastal tiles there, if we built a city on the hill site, that would mean the only way they could get up to scout our peninsula would be via the blue arrow. This would imply that Coast tile 1 is a one-tile lake, or that the peninsula is connected to the rest of the continent further west, which also implies a very large lake. If Coast tiles 1 and 2 are salt water, this means that they cannot scout the peninsula without passing through our cultural borders.

Either that, or you're seeing something that I'm missing.

	14-03-2003 08:13									#60
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

I was talking about the coastal site in the first post, sorry if the edit explaining wasn't in time for your reply (you seem to have quoted it).

I should add that the Hill site doesn't clear any further Jungle.

How we react to units moving in our claimed area is up to us. The other game can influence our opinions on this, but if we want other civs to respect our claims and are willing to back them up... then it's our perogative how we will deal with it. It's the same thing with cultural borders. Nothing says we have to be pansies when someone invades our claimed space (knowingly), we can react exactly how we would if it was culturally claimed. They might not respect the claim as much... but it comes down to how we will react to an invasion of our land (culturally or just claimed).