24-02-2003 07:12									#1
	Ministry of the Interior: General Discussion Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

This thread is reserved for general discussion of economic matters. Anyone is free and encouraged to post here.

An up-to-date suggested build queue can be found here.

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Currently, the following points need discussion:

1. What to do if the Hut yields a Conscript Warrior

Should the third Warrior then be skipped, proceeding directly to a Granary, or should the Conscript be regarded as simply a "bonus" to help in exploration?

2. Turn 28

In the current queue, at turn 28, three Warriors have been produced, a Granary and a Settler. The capital is then at size 2, growing in two turns. What should be the next order of business? The two best options are another Settler right away, or another few Warriors.

3. Long-term plans

Although it is not yet advisable to make any concrete decisions past turn 30, some ideas can be bounced around. Are a Barracks and Veteran Mercs. a priority? What about Culture? Etc.

Last edited by Dominae on 24-02-2003 at 07:21

	24-02-2003 07:20									#2
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Just a bit of a heads-up from the War Ministry. The current plan for 3 warriors is acceptable. 1 for defense and 2 for scouting, for now. However, later on I won't be quite so easy to please.

	24-02-2003 07:22									#3
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Thanks for the heads-up Trip...

Check point 1 in the edited first post, and let me know your opinion.


Dominae

	24-02-2003 07:24									#4
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I'd like to get up to 3 or 4 cities ASAP (4 if the Gods bless us from the hut).

	24-02-2003 07:31									#5
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither I'd like to get up to 3 or 4 cities ASAP (4 if the Gods bless us from the hut).

That would be a really great turn of luck! But, I too, would recomend building up to 3-4 cities before building a barracks.

	24-02-2003 07:33									#6
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My response to the issues:

Point 1:
This really depends on how much a granary can help us. If a granary will be finished right before we change city size then it would be of a great help. If it would be finished right after our city size expands, then it wouldn't be worth skipping one of the warriors to build. I need more numbers to be able to make a concrete suggestion.

Points 2 and 3:
Really depends on our situation. I advocate sufficient defense at all times. By turn 28, we'll know a lot more about our neighbors (or lack thereof), and what we may need as far as a military goes.

	24-02-2003 07:58									#7
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If we're going to build a granary it makes sense to build it sooner rather than later. Although there is some risk to building a granary before we know our layout, I think that risk may very well be worth the payout (In my estimation only some very strange terrain would make an early granary a bad strategy).

	24-02-2003 09:05									#8
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Trip, the Granary will indeed help us. As for what next, we can run NM/Settler pairs for atleast 4 cycles and pump them out at about 7 to 8 turns per pair (atleast from my worker planning setup, I have to look at what Dominae's plans effects will be).

E_T

	24-02-2003 09:08									#9
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That's easy to say, but I won't put my endorsement behind anything until I see numbers.

	24-02-2003 10:59									#10
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1) I'd check the math to see what's better. I'd rather have 1 too many warriors than the reverse.

2) Settler!

3) I'd say it depends on what civs we encounter.

	24-02-2003 20:41									#11
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BTW I'm glad to see that both the Minister of Defense and Interior seem to see the value of warriors vs. NWs. I see NW as a handicap that are an annoying penitly more often then they are useful (I love france, Ind. + Com. , w/ basically no UU, but I feel carthage is a step down). I could go on, but it seems the status quo is on my side (well, more like I'm on their's ).

	24-02-2003 21:00									#12
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quote: Originally posted by Randolph BTW I'm glad to see that both the Minister of Defense and Interior seem to see the value of warriors vs. NWs. I see NW as a handicap that are an annoying penitly more often then they are useful (I love france, Ind. + Com. , w/ basically no UU, but I feel carthage is a step down). I could go on, but it seems the status quo is on my side (well, more like I'm on their's ).

I assume you mean "NM" - Numidian Mercenary. I happen to think it's an awesome UU. However, there are priorities in the early-game which go against building 30-Shield units. The beauty of the NM is that we do not have to use it when it becomes available: it will serve its purpose well into the Medieval age.


Dominae

	24-02-2003 22:14									#13
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Dominae - you can add a link to my spreadsheet in the official thread, if you like. I'll update it at its current location, so everyone can check the numbers for themselves. It'll go nicely with your queues.

	25-02-2003 21:21									#14
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Please note that the topped thread includes a scenario of our start position, for testing purposes (it's kind of hidden unless you actually read the whole thread).

Also, I will be updating the topped thread with E_T's and BFM's spreadsheets today.


Dominae

	02-03-2003 05:23									#15
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So, now that we've seen a bit more terrain...

1. We need to explore more, but founding the second town somewhere along the river to the south (and with access to multiple 'good' tiles to share with Apolyton) is looking pretty good.

2. Uh, how do I say this while maintaining the "We Shall Overcome" optimism... ah... The 'growth-challenged' terrain immediately nearby indicates a tight build pattern would be wise.

3. In an SP game, I would probably keep to the basics for a while given these conditions... Warriors, Settlers, and Workers, to the detriment of building city improvements. I'd ICS like mad, work the heck out of the land and then selected hills, and depend on a) production power from 6-10 smaller towns, b) a buttload of cash, c) a buttload of Warriors, even regs, and d) a great military road network.

This ain;t sooo bad, but a review of Aeson's SVC (in the Strat forum) might be in order.

	02-03-2003 10:20									#16
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With our current position, how much can a Granary help us?

I vote that we consider building a Barracks sometime in the near future...

	02-03-2003 11:00									#17
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We are going to want hordes of Workers, not to mention Settlers. Granaries help a lot in that regard.

	03-03-2003 01:58									#18
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A large quantity of Regular vs a smaller quanity of vets is a balancer of sorts.

Yes, we will need to build atleast 1 Barracks, for upgrading, but not right now, as far as I can see.

E_T

	03-03-2003 02:09									#19
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quote: Originally posted by Aeson We are going to want hordes of Workers...

Man, is that true.

	03-03-2003 02:12									#20
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quote: Originally posted by Theseus Man, is that true.

I bet I could do more for Apolytonia with stacks of NMs and veteran upgraded Swordsmen than you could with a bunch of Workers.

	03-03-2003 02:33									#21
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I say: both.

That's why city placement and early production power are so un-friggin'-believably important.

	03-03-2003 03:32									#22
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Even from a military perspective, the Granary will pay off rather quickly. More cities and more improved terrain to use (in the case of Jungle this is paramount). It all adds up to more units.

	03-03-2003 03:36									#23
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It still really depends upon what we find on the other side of the jungle. Obviously, everthing north of it is a wash, so what lies south will be important. The size of the landmass leads me to believe that there's a very small chance that we're alone on our own island. If there's someone on the other side of the jungle, then a Granary will still help, but we need a Barracks soon afterwards too, to start stockpiling those vet Warriors. All those hills are bound to have some iron somewhere.

	03-03-2003 03:43									#24
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We should keep Apolyton on Workers and Settlers at least until we can build aqueducts... let's make the next couple of towns our military production centers.

	03-03-2003 03:51									#25
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Being that Apolyton will be the one with the Granary, that's fairly obvious.

The next city (most likely 3-3-3-3) we should build a Barracks in ASAP. It's far away from any potential threat since it's tucked behind Apolyton near the jungle, and most possible threats will come from the W-NW-N direction.

	03-03-2003 03:57									#26
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We'll see. I'm betting south, for the moment.

(Yeah, I guess that was a sorta obvious comment about Apolyton.)

	07-03-2003 11:04									#27
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As it appears that the continent pans out to be rather wide going south, I think loads upon loads of Workers are vital. If we can hack through this jungle quickly, we'll probably be somewhat weak early on, but we'll catch up quickly as more and more jungle falls. The jungle is also land that other possible teams will not look towards with a lustful glare. 10 Industrious Workers will make the jungle quite attractive to us though. NMs and Swordsmen will rule the jungle for any who try to pass through it.

Tarzan, here we come!

	07-03-2003 11:06									#28
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A lot of Workers implies another Granary. That means our defense will be kind of thin for a while. Is that ok?


Dominae

	07-03-2003 11:14									#29
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With a 1 tile isthmus to the north, and a huge jungle to the south, I can find that acceptable. I will want a few NMs just in case though. They could form an impregnable bottleneck in the north, or scare the daylights out of anyone willing to venture into the vines from the south. Early GA or not, we'll need a few reliable defenders, and showing a potential enemy an NM or two should be enough.

If we get lucky with the huts and get Bronze Working, then this will help us out a lot. Cranking out the occational NM between Workers/Settlers will be of great use to us, as will Warriors in the future for upgrading if we'll be running thin on the NMs. An early Granary in the next city will be important. After that point and a few Workers though, I'll be a bit more difficult to please, especially if we still only have 3 Warriors.

	07-03-2003 18:48									#30
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Trip, in general we're agreeing, but there's one thing I have to point out. "Cranking out the occasional NM" is not that easy when they cost 30 Shields apiece. Plus we would probably want a Barracks in that city. Anyway, something for me to think about.


Dominae