14-03-2003 08:14									#61
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I think, given our lands, the issue of blocking off the North is a diplomatic matter, not an economic one. I mean, we could expand due West and block them off completely, but our civ would then be very weak, just to deny them a bit of information.


Dominae

	14-03-2003 08:17									#62
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Just saw your pic, Trip. I was not aware that there is evidence of Coast in the western darkness (I never opened a save myself). Nonetheles, I hold my opinion.


Dominae

	14-03-2003 08:18									#63
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I think the easiest way is just to tell them (we can see their approach if we build 214/111) that we consider any unit moving further into our territory as an invasion and ask them to withdraw. The exact same thing that we would do if they were to move into our cultural borders.

You see... it doesn't matter as long as we are willing to reciprocate (why the move 4-2 with our S warrior is a bad one). If we make it clear what is acceptable and what is not, it doesn't matter if it is unacceptable to cross our cultural borders or if it is also unacceptable for them to cross our claimed borders... If they do it in either case they know they are doing something unacceptable and are willing to risk the reprocussions. In that sense, it takes just as much risk for them to cross our claimed land as it does for them to cross our cultural borders. So why would one deter them and not the other?

	14-03-2003 08:19									#64
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quote: Originally posted by Aeson How we react to units moving in our claimed area is up to us. The other game can influence our opinions on this, but if we want other civs to respect our claims and are willing to back them up... then it's our perogative how we will deal with it. It's the same thing with cultural borders. Nothing says we have to be pansies when someone invades our claimed space (knowingly), we can react exactly how we would if it was culturally claimed. They might not respect the claim as much... but it comes down to how we will react to an invasion of our land (culturally or just claimed).

From what I've seen since the beginning of the PTW DG, culturally claimed lands and all other lands is a completely different issue, within a "sphere of influence" or not. A team can hold no real grievances against a team passing through unclaimed lands, but can react will all due force if you invade definitive territorial ownership. You have to trust me on this one. This has happened with Lux and ND, and GoW and RP. I'm not just making this up.

	14-03-2003 08:21									#65
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quote: Originally posted by Dominae I think, given our lands, the issue of blocking off the North is a diplomatic matter, not an economic one. I mean, we could expand due West and block them off completely, but our civ would then be very weak, just to deny them a bit of information. Dominae

It's 1 tile difference, it won't cripple us.

You're correct, it is a diplomatic matter, but a diplomatic matter best solved without using diplomacy. Telling them "hey this area is off-limits" implies either A) we have something to hide or B) we're assholes. Actually, B will be implied either way. Them passing through our territory is a viable diplomatic complaint. Asking them not to walk through neutral territory isn't.

	14-03-2003 08:24									#66
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Actually Trip, it seriously diminshes the usefullness for the second city for a considerable period. That is why it should not be done lightly.

I for one don't care if they know what is north of us, if we can outproduce them.

	14-03-2003 08:24									#67
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quote: Originally posted by Aeson I think the easiest way is just to tell them (we can see their approach if we build 214/111) that we consider any unit moving further into our territory as an invasion and ask them to withdraw. The exact same thing that we would do if they were to move into our cultural borders. You see... it doesn't matter as long as we are willing to reciprocate (why the move 4-2 with our S warrior is a bad one). If we make it clear what is acceptable and what is not, it doesn't matter if it is unacceptable to cross our cultural borders or if it is also unacceptable for them to cross our claimed borders... If they do it in either case they know they are doing something unacceptable and are willing to risk the reprocussions. In that sense, it takes just as much risk for them to cross our claimed land as it does for them to cross our cultural borders. So why would one deter them and not the other?

Like I've said in my previous posts, it's viewed as completely different issues, and is also very suspicious.

If we say "hey, get out", we immediately appear hostile and unfriendly. It's assumed that you should not walk into another nation's territory without facing the risk of retaliation, and I would be highly doubtful they would risk such a move just for scouting purposes.

	14-03-2003 08:24									#68
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quote: Originally posted by Trip It's 1 tile difference, it won't cripple us.

No, not cripple, but do you actually think the gains from hiding the North outweigh the gains of a better city placement? Consider that placing the city on the Hill makes it a lot harder for us to get fresh water up North (thanks for Aeson for pointing this out). That's a big deal, IMO.


Dominae

	14-03-2003 08:29									#69
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quote: A team can hold no real grievances against a team passing through unclaimed lands, but can react will all due force if you invade definitive territorial ownership.

As far as I can tell, there is no difference. Our NM's are still 2/3/1 and their Immortals are still 4/2/1 either way. We can react the same way in either instance.

	14-03-2003 08:29									#70
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither Actually Trip, it seriously diminshes the usefullness for the second city for a considerable period. That is why it should not be done lightly. I for one don't care if they know what is north of us, if we can outproduce them.

I meant it to be a 3rd or 4th city. Not 2nd.

	14-03-2003 08:31									#71
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quote: Originally posted by Aeson As far as I can tell, there is no difference. Our NM's are still 2/3/1 and their Immortals are still 4/2/1 either way. We can react the same way in either instance.

And Lux had 8/3/3 Siphais and ND had Ansars, with whatever stats they have.
It didn't matter... Souring of relations leads to bad things. Telling them to leave unclaimed territory equates to souring of relations.

	14-03-2003 08:33									#72
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Trip,

I think that with diplomacy and reciprocity we CAN redefine "territory" in such a way that claimed lands are almost as important as occupied lands.

The negotiation, of course, must result in a win-win agreement sufficient to each of our independent interests (and possible furthering our mutual interests).

Hell, if nothing else, holding out visions of combined-arms Immortals and NMs attacks is pretty sweet...

Given our challenged start position, I think it critical to remain focused on our growth and production power.

	14-03-2003 08:35									#73
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quote: Originally posted by Dominae No, not cripple, but do you actually think the gains from hiding the North outweigh the gains of a better city placement? Consider that placing the city on the Hill makes it a lot harder for us to get fresh water up North (thanks for Aeson for pointing this out). That's a big deal, IMO. Dominae

As I said earlier, maybe you can come up with an alternative city placement that achieves the same things. This sounds more like a "who cares if they find out" VS "I don't want them to find out" argument, rather than us trying to find a way to keep them from scouting our peninsula, and if that fails, then falling back upon our original placement scheme.

I think that by the time we can worry about irrigating the plains to the northafter chopping down 4 jungle tiles and having built 6 or 7+ cities, we will be in a position where we can afford that anyways...

	14-03-2003 08:40									#74
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quote: Originally posted by Theseus Trip, I think that with diplomacy and reciprocity we CAN redefine "territory" in such a way that claimed lands are almost as important as occupied lands. The negotiation, of course, must result in a win-win agreement sufficient to each of our independent interests (and possible furthering our mutual interests). Hell, if nothing else, holding out visions of combined-arms Immortals and NMs attacks is pretty sweet... Given our challenged start position, I think it critical to remain focused on our growth and production power.

I'm sorry Theseus, but that's just not true. I've talked with Togas a bit, and he completely agrees with me. When I asked him if there was a difference between culturally claimed lands and unclaimed territory near cities he responded with "yes very much so."

Let me remind you all that Lux tried to place cities strategically, and think "long term," but that got us destroyed. We must focus more upon what's happening immediately, because things change very quickly. This isn't SP any more... there's no way to "predict" what the other teams will do, like you can the AI. We have to worry about the here and the now, and worry less about predicting what they may or may not do.

	14-03-2003 08:45									#75
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Let's not let this thread get too off-topic, please (yes, I know it's supposed to be "general").

The diplomats should open a few threads, I think. This recent discussion is very diplomatic in nature.

Concerning city placement from economic perspective, I've opened a new thread here for this very purpose. Please chime in on where you think we should put our cities and why. I've created a new thread because a lot of discussion on the issue was sprawled all over the place, and some people cannot find anything useful among the sea of words.


Dominae

	14-03-2003 09:07									#76
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quote: It didn't matter... Souring of relations leads to bad things. Telling them to leave unclaimed territory equates to souring of relations.

But you see... it's not unclaimed if we claim it and let them know that. I'm sure they'd be less sour if we just open up our cities and let them march in, but we've claimed them...

Why allow a stupid colored line the game draws on the map to define our borders? Why should they allow the same line to define theirs? I think we have a good chance as some sort of border treaty. I can't see them getting all giddy about facing NM's any more than we would be giddy about facing Immortals. A border treaty helps both teams. Nobody likes having to stack each worker in their territory with a military unit at all times, due to foreign units lurking just outside their cultural borders.

Maybe they can't see the mutual benefit, but let's give them the benefit of the doubt at least until we've met them.

	14-03-2003 09:16									#77
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quote: Originally posted by Aeson But you see... it's not unclaimed if we claim it and let them know that. I'm sure they'd be less sour if we just open up our cities and let them march in, but we've claimed them... Why allow a stupid colored line the game draws on the map to define our borders? Why should they allow the same line to define theirs? I think we have a good chance as some sort of border treaty. I can't see them getting all giddy about facing NM's any more than we would be giddy about facing Immortals. A border treaty helps both teams. Nobody likes having to stack each worker in their territory with a military unit at all times, due to foreign units lurking just outside their cultural borders. Maybe they can't see the mutual benefit, but let's give them the benefit of the doubt at least until we've met them.

It may seem silly to you, but how often has Vox sent units marauding around - and in - your territory? I'd bet not often. On the continent we've had units wandering around all over the place, through borders, around borders, behind borders, you name it. Our teams learned very quickly that the only thing that you can count on to give your complaints legitimacy is the stupid colored line. Even without asking, I know Togas - our expert on diplomatic affairs - will agree with me wholeheartedly.

With GhengisFarb on their team - one of the leaders of the continental powers - the situation is worsened by a great factor.

	14-03-2003 09:17									#78
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Borders in Civ are merely representative of cultural status, there is no real diplomatic rule behind them. I believe we can and should dictate what we consider constitutes our "territory" whether it be claimed or behind our civ border.

Look at it this way, If we had a territory "hole" would we not be able to claim that space for ourselves? What would we do to argue the fact that the "hole" is ours?

I say define our "claimed" land is, and leave it to the diplomats to make us not look like *******s. Our attitude in this sense will of course prompt the others to set up their "claimed" land too, but skillful negotiation may lead us to an agreement that is mutually beneficial.

	14-03-2003 09:22									#79
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Ok, so what you are saying is that teams on your continent didn't respect each others borders, claimed culturally or otherwise (if anyone tried to claim anything outside their borders). Why should blocking a team that isn't going to respect our borders make them respect our cultural borders? I've seen the screenshots of your Warrior inside ND's cultural borders... if ND had instead built their second city to the W, would that have stopped you from doing so?

	14-03-2003 09:29									#80
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quote: Originally posted by Master Zen Borders in Civ are merely representative of cultural status, there is no real diplomatic rule behind them. I believe we can and should dictate what we consider constitutes our "territory" whether it be claimed or behind our civ border. Look at it this way, If we had a territory "hole" would we not be able to claim that space for ourselves? What would we do to argue the fact that the "hole" is ours? I say define our "claimed" land is, and leave it to the diplomats to make us not look like *******s. Our attitude in this sense will of course prompt the others to set up their "claimed" land too, but skillful negotiation may lead us to an agreement that is mutually beneficial.

Zen, you just have to trust me here... the colored line is more than just symbolic. I've dealt with it in the past, and "leaving it to the diplomats" does you no more good diplomatically than doing it in the first place.

quote: Originally posted by Aeson Ok, so what you are saying is that teams on your continent didn't respect each others borders, claimed culturally or otherwise (if anyone tried to claim anything outside their borders). Why should blocking a team that isn't going to respect our borders going to respect our cultural borders? I've seen the screenshots of your Warrior inside ND's cultural borders... if ND had instead built their second city to the E (changed to W ), would that have stopped you from doing so?

When the cultural borders weren't respected, two things happened: 1) ND declared war on Lux. 2) GoW and RP got into a huge duel with words, and would have been at war if not for the distance between them. Nothing like this happened when units would wander outside of cultural borders (but near them).

The reason that Lux went through ND's borders was because we had the intention of crossing 1 ND territorial tile in order to avoid having to move 3/4 to get around. Had there been a city there Lux would not have done that. Just before ND declared war, they had two scouts behind 2 of our cities on our road network. "Claimed lands" do not exist.

	14-03-2003 10:31									#81
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Trip, don't get me wrong, I'm not saying we should blatantly say this belongs to us. Just that perhaps we can have an attitude towards CDG like "do you think it would be beneficial to set up our borders diplomatically?"

That type of posture is not aggressive at all.

I respect the opinions of the PTWDG members since you guys have more experience in this kind of stuff but there's a lot more at stake in the IDSG and it would be foolish to assume every other civ will act just like they do in the PTWDG (even if they do have GenghisFarb ). I feel diplomacy will be much more interesting when facing people which we do not treat the same as our fellow apolytonians.

	14-03-2003 10:38									#82
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quote: Originally posted by Master Zen Trip, don't get me wrong, I'm not saying we should blatantly say this belongs to us. Just that perhaps we can have an attitude towards CDG like "do you think it would be beneficial to set up our borders diplomatically?" That type of posture is not aggressive at all.

Even if we could agree to a definitive "border" that could not be crossed, that would hurt us more than help us. This would probably mean that we couldn't go south (which is probably the vast majority of the continent), while they just couldn't cross the jungle (and there's not much up here).

As Togas and NotYouEither said...

quote: [21:26] [TogasAWAY] and we'd be foolish to negotiate one with as little info about the map as we have [21:26] [nye_NotHere] i agree, togas.

By the way, they were both present at the time, despite what their names said.

quote: I respect the opinions of the PTWDG since you guys have more experience in this kind of stuff but there's a lot more at stake in the IDSG and it would be foolish to assume every other civ will act just like they do in the PTWDG (even if they do have GenghisFarb ). I feel diplomacy will be much more interesting when facing people which we do not treat the same as our fellow apolytonians.

I disagree. The PTW DG has turned into something more than a hobby. Everyone involved is very serious... I'm willing to bet most people are as serious about the PTW DG as we are about the ISDG. The level of intensity will be the same, and everyone is out to win.

	14-03-2003 10:53									#83
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quote: Originally posted by Trip Even if we could agree to a definitive "border" that could not be crossed, that would hurt us more than help us. This would probably mean that we couldn't go south (which is probably the vast majority of the continent), while they just couldn't cross the jungle (and there's not much up here).

Well then, why are we arguing then?

While I am in favor of opening up this diplomatic possibilty, I was also under the impression that given our geographical situation it doesn't make much sense for the moment.

Methinks it was just a little shock at seeing our first rival civ...

	14-03-2003 10:59									#84
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quote: Originally posted by Trip I disagree. The PTW DG has turned into something more than a hobby. Everyone involved is very serious... I'm willing to bet most people are as serious about the PTW DG as we are about the ISDG. The level of intensity will be the same, and everyone is out to win.

Ok then, I agree with your disagree . I did not intend to sound like the PTWDG was any less competitive. It's just that psycologically people treat "foreigners" much different than their own people even under severly competitive circumstances since there is a greater degree of uncertainty towards their actions and most of all, towards their responses.

Example: having just come out of a U.N. model, trust me, negotiation style is very different with people from other universities even though everyone is out to win.

	14-03-2003 11:04									#85
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quote: Originally posted by Master Zen Well then, why are we arguing then?

Because I don't want them to see our interior.

	14-03-2003 11:05									#86
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quote: Originally posted by Master Zen Ok then, I agree with your disagree . I did not intend to sound like the PTWDG was any less competitive. It's just that psycologically people treat "foreigners" much different than their own people even under severly competitive circumstances since there is a greater degree of uncertainty towards their actions and most of all, towards their responses. Example: having just come out of a U.N. model, trust me, negotiation style is very different with people from other universities even though everyone is out to win.

Perhaps... even if that's the case, I don't see many differences. There have certainly been quite a few personal relationships "strained" by this grand adventure.

	14-03-2003 11:17									#87
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Well, let's hope the ISDG unites us

And no, I don't want them to see our -ahem- interiors, also...

	14-03-2003 11:21									#88
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That's the idea!! We only want to reveal or solid and undefeatable exterior to those unworthy of us...

	14-03-2003 18:22									#89
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quote: Originally posted by Trip Zen, you just have to trust me here... the colored line is more than just symbolic. I've dealt with it in the past, and "leaving it to the diplomats" does you no more good diplomatically than doing it in the first place. When the cultural borders weren't respected, two things happened: 1) ND declared war on Lux. 2) GoW and RP got into a huge duel with words, and would have been at war if not for the distance between them. Nothing like this happened when units would wander outside of cultural borders (but near them). The reason that Lux went through ND's borders was because we had the intention of crossing 1 ND territorial tile in order to avoid having to move 3/4 to get around. Had there been a city there Lux would not have done that. Just before ND declared war, they had two scouts behind 2 of our cities on our road network. "Claimed lands" do not exist.

As a very active member from the GoW...I am going to say Trip is 100% accurate.

1. All we heard from ND when they sent us each save each turn was them *****ing that Lux was "invading" their cultural borders, and they were going to pay dearly for it.

2. When RP demanded GoW to leave their "claimed" territory, we were almost ready to go to war. Had we been neighbours, it would of been on. What stopped us was simply that we were on opposite sides of the continent.


So--- No demands to leave claimed land. We do not want pissed off Immortals living next door.

And as far as I know, it was only Lux who moved inside cultural borders...and both ND and GoW declared war on them because of it. So like it or not, teams will only respect the coloured line.



As to the argument about keeping them from exploring north...as long as there are no goodie huts left, let them through. Who cares if they see it. It is terrible land and if anything, they will be happy to let us keep it. If it was decent land, I would certainly back any plan to block it off...but its not.

Lets play nice..make friends with the immortals.
Use them and then abuse them

	14-03-2003 22:34									#90
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Heed my words!



It's okay to only have a warmonger half agree with me, since I know that Togas is on my side.