25-02-2003 05:35									#31
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hehe. I should have said that the war against communism is not over. The Cold War was a conflict between the US and the USSR. That's definitely over.

	25-02-2003 05:43									#32
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Shi, you don't even know what real communism is

	25-02-2003 05:51									#33
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Real communism isn't the utopian workers paradise, real communism is a bullet in the back.

	25-02-2003 06:14									#34
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The anti-American crowd foaming at the mouth again.

	25-02-2003 06:28									#35
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Look, regardless of what arguments you want to make about how evil communism is, the wars against communism (and Nazism) were immoral in that they involved a draft.

	25-02-2003 06:31									#36
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quote: Originally posted by jimmytrick The anti-American crowd foaming at the mouth again.

90% of the posts so far are by Americans. The others are my halfhearted trolls against Lancer...

	25-02-2003 06:38									#37
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quote: Originally posted by Sava Shi, you don't even know what real communism is

Man, how long will these leftist go on with their bullshit "that isn't real communism"?

Ok, if you want to get technical, the red states we were opposing during the cold war were not communist, they were socialist. I used the word communist because typically the words communist and socialist are used interchangably. Marx provided his ideas on what he wanted to happen: after the burgeois would be overthrown, a transitory period of socialism would commence in which the government would be run as a dictatorship of the proletariot. (not nessecarily with a dictatorial political system though, in fact the communist states claimed to be democratic under the theory of democratic centralism). Still though Marx didn't provide a detailed explanation of how everything would be, he provided theory and it was up to the likes of Lenin who actually held power to figure out how to apply it. As it turned out, interpretations of Marx's theory varied from leader to leader, but I still would think countries such as the Soviet Union and Cuba would have to be considered socialist. Modern China and Vietnam might be cases however in which the socialist nature of the state is alot more questionable.

And by the way, people who are saying we could have peacefully coexisted with the Socialists are being naive. Marx called for an international revolution and the bringing of eventual communism to all countries. It is in the very nature of socialism to spread itself and overcome all the people of the world. IIRC Lenin once talked about that once they got Latin America to fall under the red banner, that they should be able to get the US to go communist as well. Given the expansionist nature inherent within socialist theory, it was of course a nessecary measure for our own self protection to try to weaken communism and not let it spread.

	25-02-2003 06:43									#38
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Marxists don't have the sole control of the term 'socialist', you know. Many of America's Cold War allies were socialist.

	25-02-2003 06:43									#39
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The Cold War was moral on both sides. Perhaps it was the most moral international conflict in human history. For the first time in history, it was not so much about building an empire or enslaving other peoples as it was about the way of life and ideology. In other words, on the strategic level it was a moral and noble conflict, but on the tactical level both sides committed a lot of evil and immoral acts.

	25-02-2003 06:44									#40
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quote: Originally posted by jimmytrick The anti-American crowd foaming at the mouth again.

I'm just as American as you Joseph McCarthy. I'm just foaming at the mouth about different things than you

	25-02-2003 06:46									#41
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quote: Originally posted by David Floyd Look, regardless of what arguments you want to make about how evil communism is, the wars against communism (and Nazism) were immoral in that they involved a draft.

I dont beleive it, we actually agree on something!

The Cold war started because Stalin was paranoid about invasion; rightfuly so I might add, think Stalingrad, although what he did was wrong and gave communism the bad image it has today, one of a police state. That set off the ire of Western Europe, who called on the US for help. Stalin's polocy towards Berlin didn't help either. Kruschev tried to reconcile his predicessor's mistakes, but the capitalist propaganda had already brainwashed the American public. The Cold War was a result of the paranoia on both sides, not to mention differences in ideology, and pressure from the capitalists to stop communist revolutions.

	25-02-2003 06:48									#42
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Shi,

Marx did say that a nation will go through a developement stage under capitalism before the communist revolution, which no nation has done yet. So technically the USSR and such were not communist nations the way that Marx was talking about communist nations.

	25-02-2003 06:58									#43
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Actually, I'm not even a leftist. I just support various leftist policies that would do good in a civilized industrial society like the US. There are also various "rightist" policies that I support. And my political views have little to do with the fact that Communism has never truly existed. Please Shi, don't let my views or historical fact get in the way of another one of your anti-leftist rants.

	25-02-2003 06:59									#44
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"Marxists don't have the sole control of the term 'socialist', you know. Many of America's Cold War allies were socialist."

Do the workers control the means of production in Western Europe? Are the welfare states in Europe part of a transitory program to bring the nation and the world to communism? If not, you aren't socialist.

"Marx did say that a nation will go through a developement stage under capitalism before the communist revolution, which no nation has done yet. So technically the USSR and such were not communist nations the way that Marx was talking about communist nations."

As I pointed out, no they weren't communist. They were socialist.

First off, Russia did undergo limited capitalist development in the late Tsarist period. Marx made a prediction that capitalism would develop before the socialist revolution. That was simply that- a prediction- which was shown to be that wrong that states could not enter a transitory period to communism without becoming fully industrialized.

	25-02-2003 07:01									#45
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Marx was smart enough to realize that capitalism is simply feudalism with the illusion of freedom and political power for the people.

	25-02-2003 07:05									#46
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And by the way, Marx also said states would undergo a feudal period before transitioning to capitalism. But if a state didn't go through such a period for some reason, say they were conqured while still in a hunter-gatherer tribal state, but now had a political and economic system identical to the US, you wouldn't say that said nation isn't capitalist would you?

quote: Originally posted by Sava Actually, I'm not even a leftist. I just support various leftist policies that would do good in a civilized industrial society like the US. There are also various "rightist" policies that I support. And my political views have little to do with the fact that Communism has never truly existed. Please Shi, don't let my views or historical fact get in the way of another one of your anti-leftist rants.

Did you just read my first sentence before making that post? If you want to contribute to the discussion do so, but all you are doing here is Fezzing and repeating your bald faced assertation you made earlier, without doing any real debate.

	25-02-2003 07:14									#47
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I didn't realize the FACT that communism has never existed was a bald-faced assertion...

quote: Man, how long will these leftist go on with their bullshit "that isn't real communism"?

Yeah, I read your ignorant post. Who's Fezzing?

Perhaps you mean this one:

quote: Ok, if you want to get technical, the red states we were opposing during the cold war were not communist, they were socialist

Wrong again Rush. All of these pseudo-commie states were authoritarian police states. They weren't communist, they weren't socialist. The dictators and power mongers that took power simply fooled the populous to believe they were in fact Marxist states.

Just because you are wrong and I point it out, doesn't mean you have to insult me and say I'm Fezzing. And don't get angry if I go off-topic to point out your errors.

	25-02-2003 07:21									#48
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The Cold War was realpolitiks, with some token moral backing obviously, but then again at heart both the USSR and the U.S. were playing the same game.

And there are just too many different forms or variants of Communism, thus I seriously doubt that anyone but Marx (and Engels maybe?) truly understood what he wanted and meant to promote.

I think that whatever the "true"/"perfect" system ends up being, it will be completely different to those described and proposed up to this day.

	25-02-2003 07:28									#49
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quote: Do the workers control the means of production in Western Europe? Are the welfare states in Europe part of a transitory program to bring the nation and the world to communism? If not, you aren't socialist.

Says who?

I repeat, Marxists don't have the sole control of the term 'socialist'. To think that they do would be to ignore the large numbers of non-Marxist socialist movements throughout history. Are Christian socialists not socialist? Are socialists who renounce Marxist dogma not socialist? Are historical figures who were socialist but not Marxist like Albert Einstein and George Orwell not really socialist?

	25-02-2003 07:44									#50
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"Marx was smart enough to realize that capitalism is simply feudalism with the illusion of freedom and political power for the people."

Wrong. Feudalism and capitalism are considered distinct states, with the aristocracy holding power under feudalism and the burgeois holding power under capitalism.

"I didn't realize the FACT that communism has never existed was a bald-faced assertion... "

You made a claim: "Communism Never Existed". You said nothing to back it up. Hence the bald faced assertation.

"All of these pseudo-commie states were authoritarian police states. They weren't communist, they weren't socialist. The dictators and power mongers that took power simply fooled the populous to believe they were in fact Marxist states."

And who is to say said dictators weren't correct?Again, you make a claim that said countries were not communist or socialist. You do not back up or support your assertation. Hence, you are Fezzing.

"Just because you are wrong and I point it out, doesn't mean you have to insult me and say I'm Fezzing. And don't get angry if I go off-topic to point out your errors."

You are one of the least civil and most insulting people on this forum, and routinely make insults about people who disagree with you. If you can't take it, don't dish it out.

"
I repeat, Marxists don't have the sole control of the term 'socialist'."

Well it was Marx who invented the term, although you are correct in that others have used it as well. However for the purposes of discussing the cold war, the "socialist" states of Western Europe were very much distinct from their socialist neighbors to the east. It wasn't the West European "socialism" we were fighting.

	25-02-2003 07:57									#51
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quote: Originally posted by Lancer Can't recall the US winning many countries over from the communists back then. More than 3/5ths of the world's population was commie and it looked like a fair part of the rest was going to go also. So Kennedy put in troops, advisors he said, and Johnson threw in half a million of them. Democrats.

Actually, the stage was set by Ike, who carved out the state of South Vietnam from Ho Chi Mihn's Indochina. Then Ike set up a minority Catholic puppet goverment in the person of Diem. The result was not surprisingly a rebellion.

Kennedy inherited the mess from Ike and sent in "advisors" to aid the South Vietnamese military. JFK later decided that was a failed policy, but before he could announce a pull out of the troops, he was assassinated.

Following the popular swell of pro-Kennedy emotions in America, Johnson didn't have the courage to contradict Kennedy's last-stated position, so he trudged ever deeper into the Big Muddy.

Nixon, who got elected on his promised "secret plan to end the war" sent yet more American boys to die.

So we can add in a "Republicans"

	25-02-2003 08:01									#52
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I don't think a Vietnam discussion is helpful to the thrust of this thread.

A better debate would be centered on the U.S. invasion of Grenada: A little Carribean communist nation, not threatening anybody--when BOOM, one sunny morning they're invaded by the U.S.

	25-02-2003 08:19									#53
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Humans have never been to Mars... I don't have proof, so according to Shi, I'm Fezzing.

As for whether I'm civil or not, well, I only act in response to someone else. You started the flame war.

Shi, I'm not going to hold your hand and educate you about China, the Soviet Union, North Korea, etc... the info is out there. Get off your ass and learn, m'kay? Just because you aren't educated on a subject, that doesn't put the honus on me to support an obvious fact that Communism has never existed in pure form. I doubt this fact has ever been opposed.

You seem to enjoy stereotyping everyone who disagrees with you as a leftist and degrade them for their political beliefs.

I have a quote for you buddy. As for your silly belief that the SU and others are communism...

"Don't piss on my boots and tell me it's raining"

And as for your elitist attitude about civility...

"Those who live in glass houses, shouldn't throw stones."

	25-02-2003 09:09									#54
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quote: Originally posted by Shi Huangdi As I pointed out, no they weren't communist. They were socialist. First off, Russia did undergo limited capitalist development in the late Tsarist period. Marx made a prediction that capitalism would develop before the socialist revolution. That was simply that- a prediction- which was shown to be that wrong that states could not enter a transitory period to communism without becoming fully industrialized.

I don't think it was just a prediction. True, he failed to predict that peasants would revolt, but all the more reason to not consider the USSR a communist state as far as Marx described one. I think that it is important for a state to develope under capitalism instead of communism. Industrialization is exploitive in its nature, because you have to take away from current consumption to build the means of production. This happens much more naturally and more efficiently under capitalism. Exploitation has its rightfull place.

	25-02-2003 09:18									#55
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quote: Originally posted by Shi Huangdi all you are doing here is Fezzing

Ya know, everytime I see that phrase, my heart lifts a little, knowing I was the one who coined it. *sniff*

	25-02-2003 10:00									#56
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quote: Originally posted by Zkribbler I don't think a Vietnam discussion is helpful to the thrust of this thread. A better debate would be centered on the U.S. invasion of Grenada: A little Carribean communist nation, not threatening anybody--when BOOM, one sunny morning they're invaded by the U.S.

Why do you say this? I do not understand how North Vietnam was a threat to the United States, so North Vietnam is just as a legitimate discussion in this thread as Grenada.



I have a question for Shi -- what makes communism evil? I disagree with the ideology of communism, but I fail to see it as something evil.

	25-02-2003 11:09									#57
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quote: I think that it is important for a state to develope under capitalism instead of communism.

And that, my friend (I don't think I'm being too forward calling you this, am I? ), is why I don't think that Marx's communism WILL work. As the state develops in capitalism, Marx totally missed the fact that capitalist states will increase government intervention in the economy and form a totally new economic system: The Mixed Economy. The Mixed Economy doesn't have the stratification that Marx required for class revolution.

The only path to socialism with be through voting. And people don't like super high taxes .

When you predict the future, it is hard to be on the money.

	25-02-2003 11:22									#58
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: I think that it is important for a state to develope under capitalism instead of communism. And that, my friend (I don't think I'm being too forward calling you this, am I? ), is why I don't think that Marx's communism WILL work. As the state develops in capitalism, Marx totally missed the fact that capitalist states will increase government intervention in the economy and form a totally new economic system: The Mixed Economy. The Mixed Economy doesn't have the stratification that Marx required for class revolution. The only path to socialism with be through voting. And people don't like super high taxes . When you predict the future, it is hard to be on the money.

We will both be friends of the revolution one day.

Just kidding friend. True that Marx did not predict these things. That had to be left to others. However, mixed economies still have weaknesses. We will see when the next big crash comes how the governments handle it. Eventually, they won't be able to pay for intervention and the intervention will have a small effect anyway.

	25-02-2003 11:39									#59
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quote: However, mixed economies still have weaknesses.

Duh. Their biggest weakness is that they are unfree.

	25-02-2003 11:57									#60
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Are you going to let him talk like that about your mixed economy Imran?