25-02-2003 04:05									#1
	Question about ethics of Cold War policy. Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

The Cold War has been over since 1991 basically, but we are still faced with "leftovers" from the Cold War, such as North Korea.

But I have a question -- is it/was it ever ethical or morally right for the United States to go to war against a country simply because the country is communist?

The Soviet Union posed a direct threat to all Western nations with its nuclear arms during the Cold War, so I could understand why the United States saw the Soviet Union as a real enemy -- rightfully so. But in my opinion, the morality does not derive simply because the Soviet Union was communist -- but because of it's threat of nuclear weapons.

But with the Vietnam War, could someone explain to me the morality in declaring war on the North Vietnamese?

	25-02-2003 04:13									#2
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It was morally wrong. Communist countries were no threat to the United States, and only became potential threats once the US started its interventionist foreign policies.

quote: The Soviet Union posed a direct threat to all Western nations with its nuclear arms during the Cold War, so I could understand why the United States saw the Soviet Union as a real enemy -- rightfully so.

The US had nuclear arms as well, and was a direct threat to the Soviet Union. In fact, the US had them first, and as Ramo as pointed out in the past, threatened to use them against the Soviet Union if the SU didn't leave northern Iran. The SU rightfully viewed the US as a threat, based upon their information and the actions of the US.

Not to say, though, that the US was 100% responsible for the Cold War. If both sides had basically ****ed off - that is, if the Soviets had gotten out of Eastern Europe and the Middle East, and had never gone into Africa or supplied Vietnam or North Korea or Cuba, and if the US had stayed out of Western Europe, Japan, South Korea, etc., and if both sides had simply dealt with each other as friends rather than enemies, and extended that towards all nations, things would have been a lot better off.

	25-02-2003 04:16									#3
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I agree David -- also, the United States had to be fair, and withdraw their nuclear arsenal in Turkey, in exchange for Soviet Union's removal of weaponry in Cuba.

	25-02-2003 04:17									#4
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We never declared war on North Vietnam. It was a "police action".

	25-02-2003 04:18									#5
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You fought a war against North Vietnam. Whether or not you bothered to admit it to yourselves is your own problem.

	25-02-2003 04:19									#6
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quote: also, the United States had to be fair, and withdraw their nuclear arsenal in Turkey, in exchange for Soviet Union's removal of weaponry in Cuba.

Oh certainly. If the US can have missiles in Western Europe and Turkey, it is quite inconsistent and frankly idiotic for JFK to have a shitfit over missiles in Cuba.

	25-02-2003 04:21									#7
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Fear caused the Vietnam war. Fear of the spread of communism. If the other guy is knocking out your pawns right and left you might fear losing the king. Ths solution? While he's contemplating his next move you kick him in the nuts under the table and when he doubles over you hit em with the good old right cross.

Trouble is, in Vietnam their balls were hard to find.

	25-02-2003 04:23									#8
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I thought the US had difficulty finding its own balls during Vietnam. At least that's what crotchety old Cold Warhorses claim lost you the war...

	25-02-2003 04:24									#9
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quote: If the other guy is knocking out your pawns right and left you might fear losing the king.

Again, the US was doing the same, and in fact you could easily argue the US started it.

	25-02-2003 04:25									#10
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Don't forget SA in your list of places the US ****ed around with...

	25-02-2003 04:27									#11
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quote: We never declared war on North Vietnam. It was a "police action".

Don't be Silly. If there is more than one battlefield that has the same two sides fighting, then it is a war. Regardless of what congress may say. We all know that.

As for the activities against the spread of communisim being morally wrong:

quote: It was morally wrong. Communist countries were no threat to the United States, and only became potential threats once the US started its interventionist foreign policies.

DF, I thought you felt all wars had at least on amoral side; the one that started it. The only moral war is one in self defense.

You may believe that communist countries were not a threat at the time, but does that mean that one has to wait to be threatened to attack?

I think violent acts against communism were not morally right. Yet, actions to prevent the spread of a "disease" were morally prudent. Vietnam and Korea were morally justifiable in that they attempted to prevent the spread of communism and not smite it were it existed. Similarly, I find that any acts that attempted to do so were with moral justification on our part, and not so on the agressor; those who wished to suppress and force their politics on another nation. Actions such as the Truman Doctrine.

I do, however, feel that actions sence these times have shown us, the US, to be behaving similarly to the communist states of post WWII.

	25-02-2003 04:28									#12
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So then so far, two people argue it is immoral to declare war against country simply because it's communist.

And one person is arguing that it can be morally right.

	25-02-2003 04:28									#13
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Can't recall the US winning many countries over from the communists back then. More than 3/5ths of the world's population was commie and it looked like a fair part of the rest was going to go also. So Kennedy put in troops, advisors he said, and Johnson threw in half a million of them.

Democrats.

	25-02-2003 04:31									#14
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Hey, Mr Fun said we declared war, I corrected him. I'm not supporting the "police action" pov. That one is the BS of Johnson, or one of his silly crew.

	25-02-2003 04:33									#15
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quote: DF, I thought you felt all wars had at least on amoral side; the one that started it. The only moral war is one in self defense.

My belief is that the only moral wars are those in self defense, but that to be moral those wars also have to be fought morally (ie, no conscription, taxation, price controls, etc.).

quote: You may believe that communist countries were not a threat at the time, but does that mean that one has to wait to be threatened to attack?

Essentially. Attacking people who are not threatening you, with the justification that they COULD become threatening in the future, is immoral.

quote: Yet, actions to prevent the spread of a "disease" were morally prudent.

Except that many of the people (not governments, but people) the US was "protecting" would have preferred communism, instead of their status as a US puppet.

Further, while I agree that communism is a "disease" (as you phrase it), the US and its system of interventions and wars and assassinations and screwing people over was also a disease.

The US really didn't have moral superiority over the Soviet Union in the Cold War.

quote: Vietnam and Korea were morally justifiable in that they attempted to prevent the spread of communism and not smite it were it existed.

Even if I accepted that argument, which I do not, Vietnam and Korea were fought using the draft, which by itself makes the war immoral.

quote: Similarly, I find that any acts that attempted to do so were with moral justification on our part, and not so on the agressor; those who wished to suppress and force their politics on another nation. Actions such as the Truman Doctrine.

Are you trying to say that the US did not suppress people and ideas and force its own politics on other nations? If that's your position, that's pretty laughable.

	25-02-2003 04:34									#16
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quote: Can't recall the US winning many countries over from the communists back then. More than 3/5ths of the world's population was commie and it looked like a fair part of the rest was going to go also.

So what? This isn't the US's problem - and the US certainly had plenty of military power to prevent a Soviet invasion.

	25-02-2003 04:34									#17
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get off it lancer...everyone in political power was an anti commie loon.

	25-02-2003 04:37									#18
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David, communism was a huge prison system, and well worth fighting.

We just didn't pick our fights well. Again, Kennedy & Johnson.

	25-02-2003 04:38									#19
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quote: David, communism was a huge prison system, and well worth fighting.

Communism was certainly a huge prison system, because it sought to strip away individual rights.

But then again, the United States was doing the same thing. By forcing people to fight communism, and by forcing its policies on other nations, the US was becoming just as bad as what it was fighting.

	25-02-2003 04:39									#20
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MRT, if you could see the things I've seen, you would understand.

	25-02-2003 04:42									#21
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Hey, we won David. That's why you have the freedom of speach you so enjoy misusing.

	25-02-2003 04:44									#22
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quote: Hey, we won David. That's why you have the freedom of speach you so enjoy misusing.

No, I have freedom of speech because of my right to liberty, not because one oppressive nation forced another more oppressive nation to back down.

And by using the word "won", you are implying that there is a chance the US could have lost. If by that you mean there is a chance the US could have been invaded, that is absolutely incorrect.

	25-02-2003 04:44									#23
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maybe i would, but all i see from you(and shi) is strict partisan politics. you deny everything wrong that a republican has done but come down 10 times as hard on a democrat.

	25-02-2003 04:48									#24
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quote: Except that many of the people (not governments, but people) the US was "protecting" would have preferred communism, instead of their status as a US puppet.

I am not say what the people of those nations wanted, nor did I try to say that. Also, I don't think that anyone could accuratly tell us one way or another what the majority of the people really wanted.

quote: Are you trying to say that the US did not suppress people and ideas and force its own politics on other nations? If that's your position, that's pretty laughable.

I did make mention that what we did since the "declaration of war" was ammoral:

quote: I do, however, feel that actions sence these times have shown us, the US, to be behaving similarly to the communist states of post WWII.

Yet, I was addressing the mere action of the decleration.

Yes, the lack of morals stem from how we dealt with the conflicts with communism, but the consiquences are not the actions that justified the actual decleration.

Preventing the spread of communism was in no way wrong, on our part. Declaring war was suitable in these situations because it was the only method by which to avoid the spread. Now, if the people of the countries that we "protected" did not want our presence their in the first place, then yes it was probably wrong, but there is no way to determine this.

The reason I included an incomplete sentence containing the words Truman Doctrine is becuase that explained the moral justifications of war, according Truman and the presidents that followed. The Doctrine did not say fight to your dying breath to prevent communism. It said that we should support those countries that want help, so that they do not become communist. Nothing amoral about that.

Military conflict occured were they, the communsit, "fired the first shot", and "invaded". Thus, in a way we were defending ourselves and our interests.

Of course we can't say that the good ppl of Korea and Vietnam wanted our help, but how can we be sure that Turkey and Greece "really" wanted not to become communist as well?

	25-02-2003 04:48									#25
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MRT, we were discussing the Vietnam war, and how can you do that without talking about Kennedy and Johnson?

	25-02-2003 04:50									#26
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Paranoid, ignorance, and intolerance on both sides fueled the Cold War. The Cold War was immoral, but on both sides. Unfortunately, the US still likes to meddle in the affairs of others perhaps because it's so used to doing so a'la Cold War. And even though the SU is not an enemy anymore, the US still continues as the largest manufacturer of biological and chemical weapons... as well as being the largest conventional arms manufacturer and exporter. As long as the leadership in this country gives kickbacks and tax credits to defense contractors, it will continue to spread weapons of death across the globe.

	25-02-2003 04:54									#27
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"Democrats " thats the comment a pure partisan would make. sure kennedy and johnson got our asses into the war but its not like republicans were going "no, stop, we have no right to be there". and nixon dragged his feet getting us out.

	25-02-2003 05:06									#28
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The way we fought the cold war so aggresively at times is the reason we won. I think in some cases going to war against a country simply because its communist, such as our action in Grenada, is acceptable because communism was an evil form of government and nobody has a right to inflict that evil on their people. We were perfectly justified to come in and stop the communists.

	25-02-2003 05:09									#29
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Shi, you could just interchangibly use "america" with "communist" and youd see the way the rest of the world views us.

Last edited by MRT144 on 25-02-2003 at 05:16

	25-02-2003 05:28									#30
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quote: Originally posted by Lancer David, communism was a huge prison system, and well worth fighting. We just didn't pick our fights well. Again, Kennedy & Johnson.

The cold war wasn't\isn't about liberating people. The US doesn't give a **** about liberating people. The US is an Imperialist nation. It needs trading partners. If the world would have turned communist then the capitalists in the US could only be able to exploit their own people, not the other people of the world. That's what the cold war was\is about. It hasn't ended just because of the break up of the USSR or the changes in China. Things are just slow right now in most of the world. Things will heat up again eventually.