26-02-2003 09:18									#91
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Shame shame shame.

Ned, thanks.

	26-02-2003 12:00									#92
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If one communist state does well then workers all over the world will see and they will want the same for themselves. So the owners of capital in the capitalist nations spread propaganda about communism being evil, because they fear loosing their elite status in their own country.

Oh, the delicious irony! In the old communist states of Eastern Europe, there precisely was propaganda about how horrible life was in the West, because if the people knew how good it was to be a worker there, they'd leave or overthrow the government! Not that this propaganda worked that well, since workers who could vote with their feet did, so they somehow knew that life over in the West was better.

Now, if you want to say that these government's weren't really communist, fine, but then there's no need for propaganda about communist states being evil; there are no communist governments to villify. There are only a whole bunch of apperantly evil countries that deserve it.

As a side note, I'm not actually saying communism is evil, and in fact would certainly agree that it's not in some "pure" form: perhaps not desireable, but not evil. But your comments about propaganda are most amusing.

	26-02-2003 12:14									#93
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'Elite status' Here's Dennis Miller on the rich and their detractors. From memory...

People who complain about the rich will never get anywhere because everone is trying to get rich. Complaining about it is like going to a baseball game and complaining that nobody is playing soccer. Listen, people are like sailboats and money is like the wind, and with enough money you can pretty much get blown anywhere.

	26-02-2003 13:05									#94
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Hehe, very good SnowFire. I was wondering if anyone was going to pick up on that. However, people are still afraid of communism being successfull. That's why capitalist governments are so hostile toward communist governments, and part of the reason that communist governments have had limited success.

	26-02-2003 17:35									#95
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"Now, if you want to say that these government's weren't really communist, fine, but then there's no need for propaganda about communist states being evil; there are no communist governments to villify. There are only a whole bunch of apperantly evil countries that deserve it."

IMHO, that it most definitely not fine. Western Commies had no problem identifying (sp?) these countries as Communist for up to 70 years, even holding them up as Shining Examples of The True Communist Spirit.

But once it is beyond any doubt that their belief system results in oppression the likes that has never been seen before? They run away, crying "They corrupted my beliefs!"

Nah. That won't wash.

	26-02-2003 17:41									#96
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duncan, you have got to be kidding me. people arent afraid of communism being succesful, people are afraid of communism turning into dictatorships like they always have!

	26-02-2003 18:18									#97
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JohnT, very well said.

	26-02-2003 20:10									#98
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Thank you, Lancer.

	26-02-2003 21:24									#99
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The cold war was amoral on both sides. The URSS was paranoid about the americans and also was expansionist, trying to expand communism and implanting its police-state regime everywhere.
On the other side, the americans were also paranoids about the URSS and were imperialists, putting puppet governments on every country they could, and starving other countries for their profit.
Usa was (and is) as bad as the URSS. USA did terrible things, as implanting dictatorships in South America (pinochet and others), the vietnam war, the invasion of granada, and the attempt of invasion to cuba.
I'm not stalinist, but I am marxist, as the REAL marxism said that money and private propiertry shouldn't exist and that the people should have the right to participate in the government.

	26-02-2003 21:38									#100
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quote: The only "right" communism takes away is to be greedy. A true communist state would be democratic since the workers, the majority, would have power. As people on this thread have said, the so-called "communist" nations in history are acttually socialist dictatorships, not true communist states. Cuba is probably the only nation that is close to being a true, democratic, communist state, although there are a few things in Cuba I am against (like the government telling you where to work ).

The government telling you where to work is part of the stripping away of individualism. Though Cuba being 'democratic' is laughable. A creed dedicated to make everyone equal in the end would have, IMO, a chilling effect on individual creativity and entrepenuralism.

	26-02-2003 22:46									#101
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quote: Originally posted by MRT144 duncan, you have got to be kidding me. people arent afraid of communism being succesful, people are afraid of communism turning into dictatorships like they always have!

Nah, why do you think we hate communist dictators more than the other dictators?

edit: the US actually has supported many dictators and will do so in Iraq again after the transitional government leaves. The US obviously does not support communist dictators though. They are very hostile towards them.

	26-02-2003 22:51									#102
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quote: Originally posted by JohnT "Now, if you want to say that these government's weren't really communist, fine, but then there's no need for propaganda about communist states being evil; there are no communist governments to villify. There are only a whole bunch of apperantly evil countries that deserve it." IMHO, that it most definitely not fine. Western Commies had no problem identifying (sp?) these countries as Communist for up to 70 years, even holding them up as Shining Examples of The True Communist Spirit. But once it is beyond any doubt that their belief system results in oppression the likes that has never been seen before? They run away, crying "They corrupted my beliefs!" Nah. That won't wash.

I think there was only about 10 years there, probably less, that Westerners believed that the USSR was working for the people. That was when we were in the depression and there we a lot of 'band wagon' commies. After that no one really looked at these countries that way. There is the exception of Cuba, which has done ok.

	26-02-2003 23:03									#103
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: The only "right" communism takes away is to be greedy. A true communist state would be democratic since the workers, the majority, would have power. As people on this thread have said, the so-called "communist" nations in history are acttually socialist dictatorships, not true communist states. Cuba is probably the only nation that is close to being a true, democratic, communist state, although there are a few things in Cuba I am against (like the government telling you where to work ). The government telling you where to work is part of the stripping away of individualism. Though Cuba being 'democratic' is laughable. A creed dedicated to make everyone equal in the end would have, IMO, a chilling effect on individual creativity and entrepenuralism.

Better than the government telling you there is not job for you. Why do you think Cuban's are not creative. They seem to be solving their problems as they come. Entrepenures? You only need them in a market silly

	27-02-2003 01:34									#104
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quote: Originally posted by DuncanK edit: the US actually has supported many dictators and will do so in Iraq again after the transitional government leaves. The US obviously does not support communist dictators though. They are very hostile towards them.

DuncanK, Can it be because communism pretends to be an universal religion that will take over the world by force? Communist dictators for a long time were simply extensions of the USSR and for that reason were involved in the Cold War. However, to the extent they showed independence from the USSR, we showed less hostility. Yugoslavia under Tito was a good example.

	27-02-2003 01:41									#105
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quote: Originally posted by Ned However, to the extent they showed independence from the USSR, we showed less hostility. Yugoslavia under Tito was a good example.

Yes, their independence from the USSR was a great idea, look, what it got them: After the demise of the USSR, you destroyed them completely.

There is a great lesson in this: Ally with each and every enemy of the United States, as long as there is still time.

	27-02-2003 01:59									#106
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CT, you are so "out there" that you are really funny.

	27-02-2003 02:01									#107
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quote: Entrepenures? You only need them in a market silly

You need them in every economic system or else the society does not technologically advance as it should.

quote: Yes, their independence from the USSR was a great idea, look, what it got them: After the demise of the USSR, you destroyed them completely.

This statement shows an amazing disregard for history and ethnic relations in 'Yugoslavia'.

	27-02-2003 02:11									#108
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui This statement shows an amazing disregard for history and ethnic relations in 'Yugoslavia'.

It was outside interference (not *only* US, I admit) that played off the ethnicities against each other and destroyed the fabric of Tito´s creation.

(Which was pretty good: If there was *one* multi-ethnic state that was actually working, it was Yugoslavia.)

	27-02-2003 02:40									#109
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quote: Originally posted by Ned DuncanK, Can it be because communism pretends to be an universal religion that will take over the world by force? Communist dictators for a long time were simply extensions of the USSR and for that reason were involved in the Cold War. However, to the extent they showed independence from the USSR, we showed less hostility. Yugoslavia under Tito was a good example.

When you say that communism will take over by force, it's not that a communist country will take over the world. Communism takes over capitalism as the workers all over the world overthrow their own governments. Do you see the difference? Now what the soviets did in Eastern Europe was clearly wrong. Marx never justified forced communism like that. That was the result of evil actions.

	27-02-2003 02:43									#110
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: Entrepenures? You only need them in a market silly You need them in every economic system or else the society does not technologically advance as it should.

Entreprenuers are individuals who take personal risks. If the community takes on the risks they can't be considered entreprenuers because they are not acting as individuals and the risk is not just theirs.

	27-02-2003 03:10									#111
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quote: Originally posted by Shi Huangdi Lenin once talked about that once they got Latin America to fall under the red banner, that they should be able to get the US to go communist as well.

That's one of the Big Lies invented by the US during the Cold War. Lenin never said or wrote such a thing.

Japher, in many places, it was very easy to tell that people prefered local communists to American domination. They voted for it. In Vietnam, the elections were solidly infavor of reunification, even though it meant living under the rule of the more populous Communist north. The Southern government refused to abide by the elections and became a dictatorship.

In many countries, it wasn't so much a matter of wanting to be communists as simply wanting to have more control over the resources of their own country, which the US often equated as communist. So in country after country, moderate centralist or liberal governments were toppled. The only effective resistence then became rebellion, revolution. This has a tendency to radicalize people. So you go from liberal populists like Communist in a very short period.

The FARC, for example, was founded by members of the Liberal Party in Columbia back in the late 50s, but in the course of fighting they became Marxists. The same with the Sandanistas. Sometimes after coming to power, the US pushed them into the other side's camp, like with Castro or Ho Chi Min.



Consider the human toll that the Cold War brought. The US killed ten million people either directly through US military action or with their proxies, like the Contras, UNITA, RENAMO, and the actions of US backed dicators, like Marocs, Rhee, etc. That was from 1945 to 1990. On top of that, there was the death and misery caused by the horrible economic conditions under which most people in the Empire lived. The US opposed land redistribution programs, so poverty grew unchecked. US backed dictators were often greedy, and so put little into building schools or medical centers, whereas countries like Cuba and Sananista Nicaruaga made great strides in eliminating the diseases of poverty and high morality rates which normally arise from poverty.

And what about the cost to Americans? Some 95,000 American soliders died in two wars in Asia. 19,000 US soldiers died during the Reagan Admistration, the largest "peace-time" death toll in history (for a variety of resasons). As many as 17,000 Americans have died or will die from exposure to radioactivity from the open air bomb tests in the American SouthWest. Others we deliberately exposed to radiation near Hanford, WA. Mentally retarded people were dosed with radioactive materials so the effects could be stuedied. Careers and marriages were destroyed of people who were leftist or suspected leftists or simply protesting Civil Rights or for peace. Activists were murdered. Two generations lived in fear of nuclear anihilation. And what about the cost to the economy. We're still paying for the Korean and Vietnam Wars.

Next you have to ask yourself, would the Communist countries have been so paranoid if the West hadn't constanty been trying to destroy them. I'm not talking about just the inverventions in the Russian Revolution or WWII. Operation Stalin's Fingers was a CIA operation to make the Russians think that various Eastern European government figures were American agents. The US deliberately tried to recruit the most educated Easterns and get them to come to the West, creating a brain drain for an entire region that was trying to rebuild after getting the worst of WWII; people who the East had spent the most resources on trying to educate.

CIA agents blew up railways, bridges, power lines, put sugar in gas tanks, threw wrenches into factory machinery, burned crops, burned buildings. We conducted a war of terrorism against the Communist countries the likes of which the West still can't comprehend. In Cuba, we introduced a disease that killed off half a million hogs. We just recently sprayed a pest into the country that had never been found in Cuba before, thripsis scale (it appeared just after a high flying American plane sprayed something as it flew over Cuba).

Is it any wonder they had a prison society when they are under constant seige?

	27-02-2003 03:20									#112
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quote: Originally posted by Shi Huangdi Well it was Marx who invented the term,

Actually, it was invented before Marx. So was the term Communism (the word Anarchism, btw, was invented by a poet, Shelly). Marx distinguishd his socialism from other forms of socialism by calling it "scientific socialism." Marxist socialism is based upon the concepts of scientific theory, rather than utopian socialism, which is based upon morality.

For time, contrary to Sandman's assertion, Marxism was the only socialism in town (except in Britain, where they had Fabian socialism). Nearly every single socialist movement and party existing in the world today traces its decent from Marx, even if they long ago broke with him.

Black Dragon is correct. Western Europe was never socialist except in that Socialist Parties sometimes ran the capitalists state. Socialism isn't welfare capitalism. It is workers' control of the means of production. Welfare capitalism is capitalism. The states of the East were/are socialist, deformed/degenerated socialism, but socialism nonetheless.

	27-02-2003 03:29									#113
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quote: Originally posted by MrFun Why is communism in of itself perceived as being evil by so many people? I disagree with communism, but I fail to see it as something evil.

Communism has always been seen as evil, from the first time it raised its fist in the French Revolution to today. Communism is evil because it threatens existing the existing elite power structure and also because it tends to be anti-religious (not surprising given that relgion always seems to support the elite).

Either communism is evil because it is the untrammeled rule of the mob (the excuse in the days before universal suffrage) or because it is a horrible dictatorship, which is the cry in the days since the Russian Civil War.

We are a threat (sometimes great sometimes insignificant to the people who benefit off they way things are now. They have a material interest in things staying that way. That like things that way. Anyone who wants to change things is either a fool or evil.

	27-02-2003 03:33									#114
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quote: Originally posted by Ned Our allies became the "corrupt" Thieu regime.

Like it wasn't corrupt? Where do you think the Viet Cong got most of their weapons and ammo from?!? They bought it from people in the South Vietnamese goverment who took the money and moved to the US. The only reason that government lasted at all after 1962 was because the US was propping it up with American bodies.

	27-02-2003 03:37									#115
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quote: Originally posted by JohnT IMHO, that it most definitely not fine. Western Commies had no problem identifying (sp?) these countries as Communist for up to 70 years, even holding them up as Shining Examples of The True Communist Spirit.

Yeah, well those commies had the financial backing of the states they were upholding.

And all along, the followers of one of the leaders of the Russian Revolution were pointing out what had gone wrong. We call ourselves Trotskyists. You can flame the Communists all you want, but now days, us Trots are the main game in town (although Maoism seems to have recovered from its collapse in the 1970s and 80s).

	27-02-2003 04:38									#116
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That's interesting Che. It brings to mind something I saw on the Discovery channel the other day. Apparently there are still some dinosaurs around! Yup, they are lizards and alligators and such.

A few commies left eh? Well, that's nice, kind of retro.

	27-02-2003 05:44									#117
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quote: Originally posted by Lancer That's interesting Che. It brings to mind something I saw on the Discovery channel the other day. Apparently there are still some dinosaurs around! Yup, they are lizards and alligators and such. A few commies left eh? Well, that's nice, kind of retro.

SNAP!

	27-02-2003 05:50									#118
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quote: Originally posted by Lancer A few commies left eh? Well, that's nice, kind of retro.

Acttually, I just turned Commie this year.

In communism there still would be incentives to invent. I don't belive there should be equal pay, pay should be based on how hard you work. Inventors could get lifetime "royalties" for their inventions. In communism, not everyone is payed equally, it just that peolpe are treated equally, and there are no "super-rich people to control industry, it would be ran by worker cooperatives ("Co-Ops").

	27-02-2003 05:57									#119
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Yeah, well those commies had the financial backing of the states they were upholding. And all along, the followers of one of the leaders of the Russian Revolution were pointing out what had gone wrong. We call ourselves Trotskyists. You can flame the Communists all you want, but now days, us Trots are the main game in town (although Maoism seems to have recovered from its collapse in the 1970s and 80s).

Not knowing what you said, you said it.

Thanks for (again) proving my point!

	27-02-2003 06:08									#120
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quote: Originally posted by Odin Inventors could get lifetime "royalties" for their inventions.

I don't think this could be worked out within Marxism. It would plainly be exploitation of labor.

Inventions aren't as important anymore anyway. We have enough inventions now for all the world to live comfortably. Science would increase at about the same rate as it does now, provided spending on R&D was the same.