25-02-2003 12:05									#62
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

This thread is great especially the part about two hegemonic competitors declaring each other friends.

	25-02-2003 12:06									#63
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

What you don't like my suggestion?

	25-02-2003 13:35									#64
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

quote: Attacking people who are not threatening you, with the justification that they COULD become threatening in the future, is immoral.

Then how about Iraq? Isn't a war in Iraq immoral?

	25-02-2003 13:51									#65
	Got spare money?

quote: As the state develops in capitalism, Marx totally missed the fact that capitalist states will increase government intervention in the economy and form a totally new economic system: The Mixed Economy. The Mixed Economy doesn't have the stratification that Marx required for class revolution.

Mixed economies exist partly because capitalism sometimes is not developped enough to be able to invest in some needed industries, so the state assumes the role of the collective capitalist. In many cases it uses tax money to fund activities that only benefit the capitalists. In other cases, the state wants to be in control because it feels that some industries are too crucial to be left in the hands of private capitalists, but the goal is the survival of the capitalist state, which his the ultimate tool that capitalism posesses in order to oppress and extort. Only in special cases like Scandinavia were mixed economies really created on purpose. But don't forget that Scandinavia had to be a worker's paradise, because the USSR was next door, so if the workers were not pampered and fed, they could easily go to the other side.

	25-02-2003 14:01									#66
	Increase the size of your Attachments

quote: Then how about Iraq? Isn't a war in Iraq immoral?

Certainly. Where have I once claimed otherwise?

	25-02-2003 22:58									#67
	Inflate your Upload Space

Since Shi did not want to answer my last question, can someone else answer it?

Why is communism in of itself perceived as being evil by so many people? I disagree with communism, but I fail to see it as something evil.

	25-02-2003 23:20									#68
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

quote: Originally posted by David Floyd What you don't like my suggestion?

It's the best response possible in a thread this amusing.

	25-02-2003 23:53									#69
	Support Apolyton

quote: Originally posted by MrFun Since Shi did not want to answer my last question, can someone else answer it? Why is communism in of itself perceived as being evil by so many people? I disagree with communism, but I fail to see it as something evil.

MrFun, this answer is in some respect too easy. People probably thought the question was rhetorical. It's not that people care if another country is communist, but they care if there own country becomes communist (particularly the wealthy people). If one communist state does well then workers all over the world will see and they will want the same for themselves. So the owners of capital in the capitalist nations spread propaganda about communism being evil, because they fear loosing their elite status in their own country.

	26-02-2003 01:25									#70
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Why is communism in of itself perceived as being evil by so many people?

I'll take a shot. Communism, at least as practiced in the world, is violent and oppressive. The party leaders are an elite that wishes to take away the fruits and benefits of capitalism. They wish to force people that actually like capitalism into social structures that attempt to force equality, when people don't want total equality. People like what capitalism has done for them. They don't want that violently taken away. The way its been done in the world isn't exactly nice either.

Yes, I'm an anti-communist.

	26-02-2003 01:32									#71
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

"If one communist state does well then workers all over the world will see and they will want the same for themselves. "

That's a mighty big "IF." As we have all experienced in the real world, the workers in the Communist societies noticed that the capitalist/mixed societies were doing well and they wanted the same for themselves. Hence, no more Communist countries of note.*

* And please, no arguments about "Communism hasn't been properly implemented." That's for another thread.

	26-02-2003 02:03									#72
	Got spare money?

quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: Why is communism in of itself perceived as being evil by so many people? I'll take a shot. Communism, at least as practiced in the world, is violent and oppressive. The party leaders are an elite that wishes to take away the fruits and benefits of capitalism. They wish to force people that actually like capitalism into social structures that attempt to force equality, when people don't want total equality. People like what capitalism has done for them. They don't want that violently taken away. The way its been done in the world isn't exactly nice either. Yes, I'm an anti-communist.

So then because there is so much corruption in democratic and republic governments that means that democracy and republican ideology are in themselves evil too?

	26-02-2003 02:18									#73
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Corruption isn't what I was talking about Fun. I'm talking about the forcing of 'equality'. This seeming (and I believe ultimatly has to come to pass in communism) stripping away of indivdualism is very frightening to some people.

Corruption has nothing to do with that.

	26-02-2003 02:26									#74
	Inflate your Upload Space

I'm familiar with the horrendous crimes that Stalin committed in the name of communism -- tens of millions of Russian lives were wasted.

What I'm saying is that if it is possible to strive towards communism through government policies without disregard for human rights and dignity, then communism in of itself cannot be evil.

I used corruption of democratic governments as an example, since I thought you were stating that because some past communist governments were repressive that all communist governments have to be repressive.


But I do agree with you -- I cannot agree with communism, since I value individualism and the incentive for ambitious iniative in society.

	26-02-2003 02:29									#75
	Increase Your PM Length

Mr. Fun, the US never declared war on any country that I can recall because they were communist.

The N. K.'s invaded S. K.

The N.V.'s invaded S.V., first through the Viet Cong. Then directly.

We never invaded N.V., although we did push our counteroffensive in Korea into the North as far as the Yalu river.

Your history is a mistery. I do not speak from history. I remember this.

	26-02-2003 02:32									#76
	Inflate your Upload Space

So then why was it that later during the Vietnam War, our South Vietnamese allies increasingly went over to our enemy's side, Ned??

	26-02-2003 02:34									#77
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

I always felt that absolut power corrupts absolutly. In communism it seems that it forms something of a dictatorship that gives one person the control over all worldly affairs... Now, that's a lot of power.

I think communism would of work had it not been for the really corrupt leader they had.

As for the equality thingy; stripping away once individualism is a definite downfall of communism, but in my opinion socialism does the same thing, yet it seems to work just fine for those who live there (excpet maybe for the health care issues). Communism may have worked had the oppresion by the corrupt leaders had not been so strong. If this had not been the case the doctors, laywers, artisans, farmers, etc... may have been more willing to do their job in the name of the state and for patriotic reasons, not just for fear of being killed if they didn't.

Another point; communist ideals has a share the wealth type economy feel to it. An issue I have with this is that needs are so much addressed by the different social structures within this ideal. For example, as a doctor in a hospital, in order to do my job well, I need supplies and support staff. If I am in a hospital I probably live in a larger city thus I need transportation to and from work, I probably need a supply of heat, transportation for my food, and myriad of other things. Whereas a farmer lives on their farm, needs very little support staff, has heat sources as near as the nearest tree, and has food coming out of the ground. Yet, both these people would get paid the same? The downfall of communism was not in their ideal, or political practices, per se, but in the economic reality of it when applied to the rest of the non-communist world.

	26-02-2003 02:53									#78
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

MrFun,

Clearly because they didn't want us there. A similar phenomenon is taking place slowly in SK. Despite the fact that NK is ruled by a terrible regime, South Koreans favor the "Sunshine Policy" (which, IMO, is appeasement, and we've been playing along for roughly a decade) because the people of NK are of the same ethnicity - not to mention families that are divided by the DMZ.

The difference being that the SV gov't was atrocious too, whereas the SK government has improved from a military dictatorship to a democractic government. So you don't have people wanting to go over to communism like in Vietnam. You just have people who want reunification (even if they have no clear idea how that's gonna happen) and the Amis to go home.

At least that's my perception of it.

-Arrian

	26-02-2003 03:04									#79
	Suffering from ads?

quote: Originally posted by MrFun So then why was it that later during the Vietnam War, our South Vietnamese allies increasingly went over to our enemy's side, Ned??

The way the war was conducted by Kennedy and Johnson lead to a demoralization of our troops. They increasingly became a drug addicted, officer fragging mob.

Kennedy had taken over the war and had taken over the government. This, and the state of our troops, caused an increasing hatred of America in the countryside. As the countryside became increasingly anti-american, we became increasingly trigger happy with civilians because we could not distinguish between enemy soldiers and civilians. Our drugged out, ill-disciplined, corrupt, troops increasingly were viewed as the enemy by the local inhabitants. It was a vicious, downward spiral.

So, by the time Nixon took power in '69, there was no way to win that war even if he was inclined. We pulled out as fast as we could, and rightly so.

The funny thing is that Kennedy knew full well that we could not win that war without the support of the people. He was reluctant to take command of the ARVN and to assassinate Diem. Had he not died, he may have conducted the war differently from Johnson. However, we will never really know.

What is true is that Kennedy went to the defense of SV because it was attacked. Niether SV nor the US attacked the North.

	26-02-2003 03:09									#80
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

"Humans have never been to Mars... I don't have proof, so according to Shi, I'm Fezzing."

That is not a topic that is debated. The nature of socialism is up for debate. Marxist group have split up into a myriad of different factions, Leninist, Trotskyist, Stalinist, etc. What is and what is not socialist is a subject which has been debated over in length. You apparently, however, lack the capacity to debate this subject at all, and so you just jump up and down screaming your bald-faced assertation.

"You seem to enjoy stereotyping everyone who disagrees with you "

You do this on practicaly every other thread, with your comments about "right-wing conservative puds" who are brainwashed by the media. Take your own advice about stones and glass houses.

"True, he failed to predict that peasants would revolt, but all the more reason to not consider the USSR a communist state as far as Marx described one. I think that it is important for a state to develope under capitalism instead of communism. Industrialization is exploitive in its nature, because you have to take away from current consumption to build the means of production. This happens much more naturally and more efficiently under capitalism. Exploitation has its rightfull place."

Well you are right in that they may have done better if the state in question had industrialized first, but also problematic to Marx's theory is that against his prediction no industrialized country did have a revolution, although East Germany did go communist. But I don't think you can have as a nessecary property for a type of system: "had system X previously". If a state has the properties of a socialist state, I would argue it could still be considered socialist even if it didn't form the same way Marx predicted.

"Since Shi did not want to answer my last question, can someone else answer it?"

I am sorry, but having a life means I can't always answer everything so quickly. The reason why socialism as it was practiced was evil was the oligarchical nature of said states and the fact that they practiced totalitarianism. Socialist states minimized freedom to extreme degrees, in many cases you didn't even have the freedom to leave the country, and they practiced cruel treatment of dissenters. Read Solzhenistyn's The Gulag Archipelago for a good read on the brutal nature in Soviet Russia. Also, socialism is inherently expansionistic given Marx's focus on international revolution.

	26-02-2003 04:00									#81
	Full PM-box? Change here!

quote: Well it was Marx who invented the term, although you are correct in that others have used it as well. However for the purposes of discussing the cold war, the "socialist" states of Western Europe were very much distinct from their socialist neighbors to the east. It wasn't the West European "socialism" we were fighting.

Marx did not invent the term. Robert Owen did.

	26-02-2003 04:22									#82
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

Marx was the first to take a scientific approach

	26-02-2003 04:57									#83
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

Zkribbler, yeah I know. I was trolling the America haters. In fact half the casualties in Vietnam happened under Nixon. He wanted terms that wouldn't cause a civil war at home. There were alot of people who weren't ready to accept defeat. Though I was just a young teen I was one of them. Though it was over by then the defeat was one of the reasons I joined up the day I turned 17. Pissed me off.

BUT!

As you know Nixon was handed the mess by Johnson. IMO he was really the guy that screwed up and must bear the bulk of the blame. However, he was also handed the problem, though at the time it wasn't the festering wound it would become.

Any idea what year Eisenhower sent advisors?

	26-02-2003 05:10									#84
	Inflate your Upload Space

Lancer, you and I both know that as we withdrew we beefed up the SV, even while forcing the NV to the bargaining table by end-running them on China and by bombing the **** out of Hanoi and Haiphong. At least Nixon had a plan to get us out.

Johnson, in contrast, was completely pathetic.

	26-02-2003 05:21									#85
	Tired of ads?

MrFun, The US never joined the anti-Comitern Pact, but instead recognized the USSR in '36. We were willing to play ball with uncle Joe until he betrayed us in Eastern Europe in 1946 by not withdrawing or allowing free elections. Stalin provoked the Berlin crisis, supplied Mao to take China, and authorized the NK invasion of SK.

Later, Kruschev came to the UN, slamed his shoe on his desk and shouted "We will bury you."

Kruschev backed Castro. When Kennedy scewed up the Bay of Pigs, Kruschev really turned up the heat. He erected the Berlin wall, moved missles into Cuba and escallated in IndoChina.

Kennedy was really in a mess largely because he rejected the detente that Eisenhower had observed and had shown real weakness not only with the Bay of Pigs, but during his first summit.

You can see that most of the above really had nothing to do with the US being aggressively anti-communist. It had to do with anti-West aggression by the USSR because of their communistic beliefs.

	26-02-2003 06:38									#86
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: I'm familiar with the horrendous crimes that Stalin committed in the name of communism -- tens of millions of Russian lives were wasted. What I'm saying is that if it is possible to strive towards communism through government policies without disregard for human rights and dignity, then communism in of itself cannot be evil.

I never mentioned, or even thought about Stalin in my post.

The problem is that it seems almost impossible to achieve communism through government policy. This is why Marx advocated revoluton.

	26-02-2003 06:48									#87
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

quote: Originally posted by Lancer As you know Nixon was handed the mess by Johnson. IMO he was really the guy that screwed up and must bear the bulk of the blame.

Agreed.

Years ago, I heard an interesting commentary. Whoever was talking said that Johnson knew he had screwed up, and the guilt soon killed him. In contrast, Nixon always believed he had acted correctly, and so he lived to be an old man.

quote: Any idea what year Eisenhower sent advisors?

Sorry. I'd have been during his second term, but that's probably not much help.

quote: Originally posted by Ned Mr. Fun, the US never declared war on any country that I can recall because they were communist. The N. K.'s invaded S. K. The N.V.'s invaded S.V., first through the Viet Cong. Then directly.

How 'bout Grenada?
(& of course, Cuba by proxy)

	26-02-2003 07:23									#88
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

The only "right" communism takes away is to be greedy. A true communist state would be democratic since the workers, the majority, would have power. As people on this thread have said, the so-called "communist" nations in history are acttually socialist dictatorships, not true communist states. Cuba is probably the only nation that is close to being a true, democratic, communist state, although there are a few things in Cuba I am against (like the government telling you where to work ).

	26-02-2003 08:11									#89
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

Ned, we later hung the ARVN out to dry by not providing the ammo all that hardware we left behind needed. Sickening. Was that Ford or Carter? I can't recall. I just remember the ARVN falling back, lacking in everything, abandoned by the United States, losing itc all for want of supply, in dire need of some air support. Air support that for once would have found a very target rich environment. Even if we didn't have the backbone for airstrikes, some ****ing ammo... What a horror, dispicable.

Damnit, I can't recall now if that was Ford or Carter.

	26-02-2003 08:31									#90
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by Lancer Ned, we later hung the ARVN out to dry by not providing the ammo all that hardware we left behind needed. Sickening. Was that Ford or Carter? I can't recall. I just remember the ARVN falling back, lacking in everything, abandoned by the United States, losing itc all for want of supply, in dire need of some air support. Air support that for once would have found a very target rich environment. Even if we didn't have the backbone for airstrikes, some ****ing ammo... What a horror, dispicable. Damnit, I can't recall now if that was Ford or Carter.

In order to get the SV to agree to the peace agreement, we agreed, but not in writing, to use our airpower against the NV's if they broke the deal. We also agreed to supply them.

Well, that was early 1973. In that same year, Congress passed the War Powers Act that handcuffed the president from committing American troops to combat.

Then we ran into Watergate in the same year. Nixon resigned in the summer of '74. It was during this time that the Democrat Congress, feeling its oats, begin denying administration requests for funding for the SV. Our allies became the "corrupt" Thieu regime. When things really got out of hand in '75, Ford went on TV and called for $730 million in emergency funding. The Democrat Congress said no. Because of this and the War Powers Act, he also did not commit US airpower to the defense of the South.

Ford was handcuffed by the Democrat Congress. The Democrats, including Kennedy who was there at the time, sold our former allies down the river.

This same Democrat Congress then evicerated the CIA. This arguably lead to 9/11.

To a Democrat, these were the golden years. They got Nixon, South Vietnam and the CIA. I hope they are proud of themselves.