26-02-2003 08:51									#91
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quote: Originally posted by JohnT *JohnT snatches back tasty morsel before the evil troll snaps at his hand*

Yummy! You quoted my -very much to the point, as usual!- post. Without even finding an argument, any argument, to counter what I said. Now, that tasted delicious.

	26-02-2003 08:52									#92
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quote: Originally posted by Comrade Tribune Sounds eerily like Hitler. He always mumbled about survival, too, while threatening the national survival of *everybody else*.

Superficial analogy. The US is far from being Nazi Germany, and circumstances are different.

	26-02-2003 08:57									#93
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quote: Originally posted by Comrade Tribune Yummy! You quoted my -very much to the point, as usual!- post. Without even finding an argument, any argument, to counter what I said. Now, that tasted delicious.

Because I thought the obvious answer was too obvious... that there are more Jews in the US than in Israel.

	26-02-2003 08:59									#94
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc One of the reasons for that war was that the US was fearful that other states might conclude that aggression pays and we would have to deal with more wars of conquest.

So do you want to say that oil was not the primary reason for the first gulf war? What you mention is of course a serious reason too, but it would never be such a big deal if it was not for oil.

	26-02-2003 09:00									#95
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quote: Originally posted by The Vagabond Superficial analogy. The US is far from being Nazi Germany, and circumstances are different.

"To initiate a war of aggression is the supreme international crime, differing only from other war crimes in that it contains within itself the accumulated evil of the whole." — Judgment of the International War Crimes Tribunal at Nuremberg, 1946

	26-02-2003 09:04									#96
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quote: Originally posted by JohnT Because I thought the obvious answer was too obvious... that there are more Jews in the US than in Israel.

Yes, and that exactly is my point: That the interests of Israel seem to matter more to many of them than the interests of their (non-Jewish) fellow Americans.

Let alone US reputation and Allies.

Noticing this fact makes me a conspiracist in the somewhat dimly-lit mental world of Dino.

	26-02-2003 09:09									#97
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quote: Originally posted by Comrade Tribune "To initiate a war of aggression is the supreme international crime, differing only from other war crimes in that it contains within itself the accumulated evil of the whole." — Judgment of the International War Crimes Tribunal at Nuremberg, 1946

The war on Iraq has been going for a long time actually. So what is going to happen is not an agression out of the blue. If it were, it would be a different story.

	26-02-2003 09:17									#98
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I think the war in Iraq has partly to do with securing a reliable and immediately exploitable source of oil in prevision of the next step of war against terrorism : Saudi Arabia (there'll be at least high tensions between the Saudi family and the US once Iraq is under US' control). The crisis in Venezuela makes this priority even more important, since another reliable source of oil for the US has been lost for now.

However, oil is not the first or only reason. I agree with almost everything Ge and MtG wrote in this thread. It's notably about testing a new power politics, and prolonging US supremacy on this critical region of the world.

Also, the US needs allies. According to Nye's analysys (no, I don't mean Notyoueither ), the US must maintain solid alliances to relieve it from being the only world policeman - the goal would be to be "sheriff of the posse". If the US manages to get its NATO allies to go there, it could spare much money for the military.
Moreover, the Euros have a big role in peacebuilding after the war, which is not as satisfactory in elections as cool action on TV (i.e. war), but demands huge amounts of money as well.

	26-02-2003 09:21									#99
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quote: Originally posted by The Vagabond The war on Iraq has been going for a long time actually. So what is going to happen is not an agression out of the blue. If it were, it would be a different story.

Yes, Bush and gang *are* already guilty. Now when are we going to see them brought to trial?

	26-02-2003 09:26									#100
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor Moreover, the Euros have a big role in peacebuilding after the war, which is not as satisfactory in elections as cool action on TV (i.e. war), but demands huge amounts of money as well.

God forbid! They shouldnīt drop a single Euro down that dump. US break it, US buy it!

Spiffor, sometimes your ideas are worse than those of our most esteemed American friends.

	26-02-2003 09:34									#101
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I am against the war for the very same reasons I am for an active rebuilding, led by Europe :

- I care about civilian deaths (yes, pro-peace people aren't necessarily Saddam-apologists looking for fruitous oil deals ), and Iraq will be even more in shambles after the war than it is now, which means even more misery, famine and disease.

- I care about thwarting terrorism and support for fundamentalism. While misery isn't the only reason for people to support fundamentalism, it is an important reason, and we should adress it since we can.

If you're anti-Amercian enough to let millions Iraqi die, I wonder how you can picture yourself as a "comrade"

	26-02-2003 09:45									#102
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor I am against the war for the very same reasons I am for an active rebuilding, led by Europe : - I care about civilian deaths (yes, pro-peace people aren't necessarily Saddam-apologists looking for fruitous oil deals ), and Iraq will be even more in shambles after the war than it is now, which means even more misery, famine and disease. - I care about thwarting terrorism and support for fundamentalism. While misery isn't the only reason for people to support fundamentalism, it is an important reason, and we should adress it since we can. If you're anti-Amercian enough to let millions Iraqi die, I wonder how you can picture yourself as a "comrade"

Total rubbish and muddled thinking, the like I wouldnīt even expect from DinoDoc.

First of all, if Euros were so idiotic to promise to pick up (a large) part of the costs, this *guarantees* that the war will happen.

That it *may* become jolly expensive is the only *American* reason *against* it.

So you are either inept, or, in an underhanded way, arguing *for* war.

If support for fundamentalism increases, great. It is not Europe the fundamentalists have a little problem with. I am all for America harvesting the whirlwind after sowing the storm. We have absolutely no business to try prevent that.

	26-02-2003 09:51									#103
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quote: Originally posted by Comrade Tribune If support for fundamentalism increases, great. It is not Europe the fundamentalists have a little problem with. I am all for America harvesting the whirlwind after sowing the storm. We have absolutely no business to try prevent that.

Then I guess you are about as bloodthirty and short-sighted as the average pro-war Yankee. Maybe even more. Your hate for America is blurring whatever sympathy for your fellow human you can have

	26-02-2003 09:56									#104
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor If you're anti-Amercian enough to let millions Iraqi die, I wonder how you can picture yourself as a "comrade"

I didn't call him a paranoid, raving moron for no reason.

	26-02-2003 09:57									#105
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Spiffor, you misunderstand CT. He believes that his hate for America is showing love and sympathy for his fellow humans.

	26-02-2003 10:01									#106
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I have no problem at all with people paying the costs of their actions.

No one ordered Americans to go to war against Islam, and thereby create more fundamentalism. (Or, perhaps, the Israel Lobby ordered them, but thatīs still not our problem).

If they do so, why should *we* bail them out, financially or otherwise?

So they can call us 'Cheese-eating-surrender-monkeys'?

Well, the Surrender Monkeys will hopefully sit back, not pay a dime and watch on television what ever interesting US skyline changes fundamentalists may yet create.

	26-02-2003 10:01									#107
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc I didn't call him a paranoid, raving moron for no reason.

Damn, I hate it when I must agree with you DD

	26-02-2003 10:05									#108
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CT :
I don't belive the average dead in the twin towers deserved his death anymore than the average Bagdhadian when the US will bomb Baghdad. These innocent people aren't responsible for the decisions taken by their countres or influent groups within, and yet they'll pay.

Ignoring the fact that innocent Americans will pay for the absurd US foreign policy is just like dismissing the civilian deaths of innocent Iraqis when the west will go "punish Saddam".

It is a pure warmongering stance. An arrogant stance. A despicable stance.

Edit : to me, an American dead is as bad as an Iraqi dead. I thought only American warmongers didn't understand this. I now know I was wrong.

	26-02-2003 10:06									#109
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"So they can call us 'Cheese-eating-surrender-monkeys'?"

You're mad... about a quote from a TV show?

I've heard of pathetic, but... wow!

	26-02-2003 10:08									#110
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor Ignoring the fact that innocent Americans will pay for the absurd US foreign policy is just like dismissing the civilian deaths of innocent Iraqis when the west will go "punish Saddam".

No; because you are blurring the difference between aggressor and victim.

	26-02-2003 10:11									#111
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quote: Originally posted by JohnT "So they can call us 'Cheese-eating-surrender-monkeys'?" You're mad... about a quote from a TV show?

It very much shows the attitude.

US attitude toward Europe is, on the whole, colonial, and I, personally, have had enough of it. I can definitely understand the Arabs.

	26-02-2003 10:13									#112
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor Damn, I hate it when I must agree with you DD

This is the most I've heard that phrase in a single thread ever.

	26-02-2003 10:14									#113
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quote: Originally posted by Comrade Tribune No; because you are blurring the difference between aggressor and victim.

US administrations and terrorist zealots are agressors. American and Iraqi civilians are the victims. I think I got the picture pretty clearly.

Assimilating Wamericans with Bush's stupidity is exactly the same as assimilating muslims with terrorists. A gross generalization which can only create more hate and destruction between the two people
(and egoistically as a European, a hate which will concern us too, when bombs will explode in our subways)

	26-02-2003 10:18									#114
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"US attitude toward Europe is, on the whole, colonial..."

LOL!!!!!! Are you serious???? Methinks it's quite the quite the opposite, and has been for over 200 years.

	26-02-2003 10:23									#115
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor US administrations and terrorist zealots are agressors. American and Iraqi civilians are the victims. I think I got the picture pretty clearly. Assimilating Wamericans with Bush's stupidity is exactly the same as assimilating muslims with terrorists. A gross generalization which can only create more hate and destruction between the two people (and egoistically as a European, a hate which will concern us too, when bombs will explode in our subways)

As the Chicken-hawks say: Itīs the business of the 'civilians' to effect regime change. This is true for the US as much as for Iraq, nay, more so. Or face the consequences.

As to Muslims and terrorists: You consistently overlook the fact that I think OBL has a point.

Nothing will explode here in Europe, as long *as we make clear we do not identify with the US*. Which is the most important thing to do right now.

Lo-and-behold!, Chirac and Schroeder seem to understand this. Itīs a bit late for them to become patriots, but better late than never.

Europe first, and let America go down the drain. Best thing that could happen, ever.

	26-02-2003 10:24									#116
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quote: Originally posted by Comrade Tribune Itīs a war for Israel.

No, it isn't. Israel is more than capable of taking care of itself. If we unleashed her, Israel could conquer the ME in a matter of weeks. Holding it would be another story altogether, but they could easily beat every country in the ME. Only Egypt would give them some trouble.

The war is about asserting American power. The first Gulf War was about showing the world who was boss in the wake of the Cold War. But a curious thing happened. The lesson didn't take. Hussein didn't play along. For twelve years he'd been thumbing his nose, not at the UN, but at the US. As long as Iraq can get away with refusing to kowtow to the American Empire, it lets other countries know they can get away with it also. Hussein has to be be made to tow the line or he has to be destroyed.

That's what this war is about.

	26-02-2003 10:26									#117
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quote: Originally posted by JohnT "US attitude toward Europe is, on the whole, colonial..." LOL!!!!!! Are you serious???? Methinks it's quite the quite the opposite, and has been for over 200 years.

Iam not sure you get me. What I am meaning to say is, US treat Europe, *as if* it were a colony, or an outpost of their Empire, something I definitely do not want to be. Iīd rather the Empire to end, asap.

	26-02-2003 10:29									#118
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I call BS che. Realists are mystified by the war.

	26-02-2003 10:29									#119
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Well, as long as Buck Birdseed can post the above linked thread in all seriousness, I doubt that the feeling is anything less than mutual, my friend.

	26-02-2003 10:31									#120
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara No, it isn't. Israel is more than capable of taking care of itself. If we unleashed her, Israel could conquer the ME in a matter of weeks. Holding it would be another story altogether, but they could easily beat every country in the ME. Only Egypt would give them some trouble. The war is about asserting American power. The first Gulf War was about showing the world who was boss in the wake of the Cold War. But a curious thing happened. The lesson didn't take. Hussein didn't play along. For twelve years he'd been thumbing his nose, not at the UN, but at the US. As long as Iraq can get away with refusing to kowtow to the American Empire, it lets other countries know they can get away with it also. Hussein has to be be made to tow the line or he has to be destroyed. That's what this war is about.

This is an interesting line of thought. The problem is that Saddam *did* play along. He isnīt a threat (or even a nuisance) to the US at all. I wish he were.