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Aredhran
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Geneva, Switzerland
Apr 1999
time: 06:13
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Dominus Transcendi
or
The Lord of the Transcenders
(Disclaimer: the Latin purists among you will, I'm sure, forgive me for the intentionally incorrect declension of Transcendi - assuming such a word existed in Latin in the first place  )
This is the moment you've all been waiting for, the Race to Transcendence duel between Velociryx and Zsozso ! I have been working on a map, which is pretty much complete now. I did my best to make the locations as similar as possible, but there are some differences, especially in Fungus, special resources and Unity Pod coverage (although the number of these is roughly the same on the starting continents).
I will now prepare the scenario setup, and send the save to the players and let them fight it out. May the best Transcendi win !
For reference, here's the initial discussion thread.
Reminder of world parameters
- Fully customized map, Large size, with two roughly identical big main continents, and a series of small islands
- Weak erosion, Average life forms, Average precipitations
- Some special landmark tiles have been placed on the continents, and there are the same number of each for both players
- Fungus, rockiness and unity pods/special resources have been randomized
- Look first ON, Blind research OFF, Spoils of war OFF, Tech stagnation OFF, Unity survey OFF, Random events OFF
- Each factions starts with 4 colony pods, 4 scouts and 4 formers, plus 200 energy credits
Game rules
- SMAC patch 4 game, UoP vs UoP, no AI
- The only victory allowed is Trancencance (obviously)
- It is not acceptable to build a strong military to destroy one's opponent since this would reduce the game to a conquest feat, and that's not the purpose of this challenge
- Small scale military interventions are authorized of course.
- No diplomacy until in-game contact made
Note: One of the players has been assigned the Hive slot, and therefore will have blue units and Hive base designs, and will look like Yang, but it's still UoP.
That's about it... If I forgot anything, or if you have comments, please post your suggestions and other remarks below !
A thread will be created on the Multiplayer forum for the game's administrative maintenance.
Aredhran
Dominus Transcendi CMN
PS: If there's enough interest for it, I can turn this into a Forum-wide tournament. Candidates will be matched in pairs, and when everyone has fought one match, I can create a second map for the next round. If you like the idea, post below...
[This message has been edited by Aredhran (edited January 08, 2000).]
[This message has been edited by Aredhran (edited March 12, 2000).]
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Aredhran
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Geneva, Switzerland
Apr 1999
time: 06:13
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Dominus Transcendi 1 (DT1) - Velociryx vs Zsozso, started 8-Jan-2000
Zsozso wins, as Vel decided to abandon due to Zso's decisive advantage
Dominus Transcendi 2 (DT2) - MichaeltheGreat vs LoD, started 17-Feb-2000
Dominus Transcendi 3 (DT3) - Bob vs mamajom, started 23-Feb-2000
Dominus Transcendi 4 (DT4) - Paul vs Tau Ceti, started 23-Feb-2000
Tau Ceti wins by Transcendence in 2216, Score 2771 (Pop 429, Tech 74, Projects 500, Bonus 1768)
Dominus Transcendi 5 (DT5) - Fistandantilus vs TigToad, started 13-Jul-2000
Fistandantilus wins by Transcendence in 2208, Score 2205 (Pop 247, Commerce 436, Tech 76, Transcendent Thought 10, Projects 250, Bonus 1186)
Dominus Transcendi 6 (DT6) - Mark13 vs Hobbes, started 09-May-2001
Mark13 wins by abandon of Hobbes, 10-12 turns away from Transcendence in 2209, Score 824 (Pop 291, Tech 58, Projects 475)
Dominus Transcendi 7 (DT7) - Misotu vs Paul, started 09-May-2001
Misotu wins by Transcendence in 2209, Score 2860 (Pop 328, Tech 75, Projects 675, Bonus 1782)
Dominus Transcendi 8 (DT8) - TigToad vs Misotu, started 09-May-2001
Dominus Transcendi 9 (DT9) - Paul vs Tigtoad, started 09-May-2001 - Tigtoad abandoned, replaced by Hobbes 15-Jun-2001
Dominus Transcendi 10 (DT10) - Vultur vs Chowlett, started 09-May-2001
Aredhran
Last edited by Aredhran on 05-08-2001 at 19:39
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Vi Vicdi
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Killeen, TX, USA
Nov 1999
time: 23:13
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Life of Brian flashback:
A joke name, you know, like Naughtius Maximus or Biggus ... Transcendus.
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MichaeltheGreat
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Apolyton Grand Executioner
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mooning the house that Ruth built.
Oct 1999
time: 21:13
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Actually, LM, I was sent to this link by an ACOL post by Aredhran, who stated that he started this challenge, and asked if other players were interested.
I'd be happy to teach your two best builders, conquerors, or whoever, how to play SMAC. I already signed up for Zsozso's tournament. I haven't checked out the other thread, but I'm only interested in PBEMs against top level players. I gave up on single player SMAC, except for periods of extreme boredom, months ago.
[This message has been edited by MichaeltheGreat (edited January 16, 2000).]
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Helium Pond
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Los Anheles, California, Good Ole U S of A
Nov 1999
time: 05:13
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Thanks Aredhran! You got the ball in motion! I'm thrilled.
I understand the reasons for the rules, and for letting each person play the same faction, and all the other special customizations made to the game for the purposes of this challenge. I'm curious who will win, and it's exciting for the fight to have begun. However, I've been wondering if a slightly different challenge might also be interesting.
I'm the kind of guy who likes to pick "random" on the faction selection screen. It adds to the fun, for me, to have to make the best of whatever faction I get stuck with. This is half of my reason for wanting to see vel and zso fight under random conditions; with random factions and random starting locations, and may the best man win. The other half is that, without other factions in the game, and with a pre-designed, fair map, they're not really playing SMAC. They're playing something very close to SMAC, true, but not SMAC. The imbalances and unfairnesses are all part of the game, and they're a part of the game that I savor. Likewise, I'm not crazy about removing the other win conditions. It makes the game less interesting; if the players have to worry about the opponent trying to snag an early, cheap victory, they are actually playing SMAC. If not, they're playing a SMAC with training wheels. I understand that Builders like to play as if there's no other way to play the game, but by removing all the other elements from the game, somthing gets lost, a certain paranoia that's integral to "real" SMAC. All the current restrictions do is make it easier to play as a Builder. In true SMAC, being a Builder is something that requires strategy and care; in this set-up, it's a breeze. Of course, that's fine, it's fine to have specialized conditions, it's kind of interesting to make variations on the game and see who does the best under them. "Who would be the best Builder in a Builder-optimized scenario" is a valid question in its own right, and essentially what the Dominus Transcendi challenge is all about.
However: the way I had pictured the challenge was more along the lines of "What if Vel and zsozso, having never heard of each other before, happened to hook up for a multiplayer game?" They'd have to deal with all the other factions, they would have to either accept a random faction or argue over who got what faction, and they'd (probably) play with all the win conditions enabled, but each would privately be hoping to win by transcendence. That's the game I was interested in seeing. In other words, an Ultima Dominus Transcendi:
--either randomly assigned factions for vel and zso (which I think would be more interesting), or pre-agreed, different factions for each player.
--seven factions are in the game; in other words, they're playing actual SMAC.
--winner will be winner by transcendence, but a draw can be forced by another player nabbing one of the other win conditions before transcendence happens.
--obviously, there are no restricions like "limited military engagement"; the only rules of conduct are ones of personal honor, such as not doing really slimy city-trades with the AI, which I doubt either vel or zsozso would do.
--large or huge map, average life forms, average cloud cover, average erosive forces.
--look first, no blind research, spoils off, stagnation off.
--Survey on or off, up to players.
--random events also up to players.
--this is implied by the other rules, but I thought I'd make it explicit: it is perfectly fair to build a strong military to destroy one's opponent. The purpose of the challenge is to see who can win a transcendence victory under actual SMAC conditions, and that includes the condition of having a hostile military opponent. All victory conditions will be enabled, but transcendence will be regarded as a "true" victory, and all others as a "draw," because, under the imaginary scenario of vel and zsozso meeting each other on-line and starting a game, that's probably how they'd each privately feel.
I'm sure people's objections to this are going to be along the lines of, "But it won't be fair!" What if one person randomly gets Miriam? What if someone starts on a tiny island? It won't be fair! My reply is, yes, it won't be fair. Exactly. A real game of SMAC would not be fair. To coin a phrase, he true grit comes out when the s**t hits the fan.
While the Dominus Transcendi Challenge can be paraphrased as "Who's the best Builder under Builder-optimized conditions?", the Ultima Dominus Transcendi Challenge is more like "Who's the best Builder under actual SMAC conditions?"
Now, I'm very interested in the current Dominus Transcendi Challenge (and I also apologize for the probably-horrible latin of "Ultima", but I don't know no better), and thanks to Aredhran for setting it up. It's cool and exciting for it to finally be happening, and I'm dying to know the turn results. I just hope that the two giants, when they're done slugging it out on a level playing field, will have anough stamina left for a real game of SMAC...
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LoD
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Warsaw, Poland
Jan 2000
time: 06:13
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Helium Pond: AFAICT, this challenge was designed to show which of the opponents (in DT1, Velocirix and zsozso) is the best Builder. And, although I admit you have a point about this challenge making it too easy for Builders, there are two things in your post that collide with the purpose of Dominus Transcendi:
1. The AI
What is an AI faction to a beginner?
A worthy, dangerous opponent.
What is an AI faction to an intermediate
(casual) player?
An opponent that can be, in a matter of time, beaten.
What is an AI faction to an advanced (serious) player?
A sack full of energy, tech, and ready bases, just waiting to be cut open.
What is an AI faction to a super advanced player?
A place thanks to which his forces gain impact, a trampoline to propel him to victory.
As you probably suspect, my point is that, in a gross of situations, the AI is not a barrier for a player like Vel and zsozso - on the contrary, it makes one more powerful. And having a submissive faction right along the border early in the game will do wonders for your economy and tech proggress. It will simply unbalance the game.
2. RANDOMIZATION OF FACTIONS
Imagine, what happens if one person gets Miriam. In your post you state that it would be unfair for that person. But think about it: who plays Miriam as Builder? Nobody! And, with a help of heavy ICSing and the mentioned AI abusing, a Believering player will simply overwhelm his opponent in numbers! Mind you, he won't conquer his co-player. He will wait for him to surrender or build the AtT before him.
And what happens if both people get Conqueror factions? One word: Bloodbath.
CONCLUSION
Purism is an extreme. And, as a rule, one must not go into extremes, unless that's his goal. In this case, purism is not a goal. The goal is to show which player is the better Builder. Some counter-measures have to be established to prevent players from behaving in an unwanted way.
IMVHO, your Ultima Dominus Transcendi Challenge could be paraphrased as "Who's the worst motherf***er under actual SMAC conditions?"
------------------
---LoD
[This message has been edited by LoD (edited January 17, 2000).]
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Aredhran
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Geneva, Switzerland
Apr 1999
time: 06:13
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Thanks for the input. Here's a few remarks:
"Limited Military"
What I meant by this is, in the interest of actually reaching transcendence in non trivial conditions (ie. to really make it a race), I wanted to avoid a situation where one of the challengers will beat the other to a pulp (one city surrounded by troops). Fighting for an island to expand one's territory is fine, but full-scale invasion of the enemy's homeland is not acceptable.
This is in the interest of the spirit of this challenge, which leads me to the next point...
"Unrealistic, not SMAC"
Helium Pond, I think you have a valid point and I agree with most of what you're saying. However, the idea behind this challenge was indeed to play a "pure builder" type game, to see which one of two players would be the fastest to Ascend. This has been discussed extensively in other threads not only between Vel and Zsozso but also with the input of other players, and this challenge is the result of these discussions.
You're correct, it's not "real" SMAC (whatever that may be), but in my opinion, the game's setup is perfectly adapted for the Challenge's ultimate goal. What's the point of setting up that type of game to see it ended before 2200 by a rover rush ?
With these limitations in mind, I think a roughly equivalent starting continent with some rules limiting the gameplay, and using whatever game options available to remove of the random part is essential. The same goes for assigning the same factions to both players... You can't really hope to out-transcend a human-played UoP if you're a Spartan or a Believer (although you could beat the crap out of them and transcend after, but once again that's not the purpose of this game).
If you want to start another "full random" race to transcendence challenge, then by all means be my guest ! I'm sure you'll find plenty of people interested in playing it !
Aredhran
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David Byron
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Although I can see why you want them in the same game the idea of "limited military" does seem oxymoronic. I mean if you don't want direct contact to jeopardise the builder idea then why not just give them the same scenario and see how they go?
Or is there some sort of non-military involvement which you think would be ok? I think you'd need to specify precisely what was allowed. What if one player rushes up some weakly defended cities on the other's continent thinking "he is not allowed to attack" and the opponent thinks, "well its not a BIG attack -- he's not got much defending..."?
Also. Have there been any military scenarios played out I could look at? Something like starting forces and some cities, no tech advance possible...?
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08-01-2000 21:37
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