02-03-2003 10:58									#31
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Asher:

Not the whole,
but the increment.

I ask not whether your beliefs are completely right or correct, but rather whether you can improve your beliefs.

We are human, we can't reach the point of complete consistency, despite what Agathon says.

But we can get more right.

Are your beliefs more right then they were before?

If not, why do you believe what you do?
Why did you discard your earlier beliefs?

	02-03-2003 10:58									#32
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quote: Originally posted by Jon Miller well. you do beleive in teaching ethics, mainly one of relativism (where the best possible eithcs are those that coincide with your understanding of the world and what you feel like) Jon Miller

When did I ever express support for teaching ethics?

I'm just discussing them with people.

I don't believe ethics should be taught in a classroom, aside from rules/regulations for a facility.

	02-03-2003 10:58									#33
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Jon, that's the point...that the metric we set on is a personal preference...but that doesn't mean that my ethics mean less to me than somebody who decides on them based on what he believes God wants.

In other words, I don't defend somebody because he acts ethically according to his own set of rules; I judge them on my terms.

	02-03-2003 11:00									#34
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obiwan

what you should ask is if he understands more than before

he ties his ethics straight to his understanding of the world

so if he understands more,t han his ethics are *better*

hmm, Asher, I beleive that you might have a problem

Jon Miller

	02-03-2003 11:00									#35
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quote: Originally posted by Asher When I meet and talk with people from different walks of life (like on Poly, for instance) and learn more about the world in general, my beliefs do change. Poly has made me more left-wing politically, since I've never really been around people other than well-off upper-middle class before, and I know people from all walks of life here. It's why I support the concept of public healthcare, public education, welfare, etc.

Surprising. But how did your beliefs change?

quote: Which law of the universe states beliefs must logically agree with eachother? Humans are, after all, not really logical creatures in the first place -- isn't it a large jump to assume all of a human's beliefs must be logically in agreement?

Ever tried to think of a round square, or tried consistently to hold that doing X is both right and wrong in the very same circumstances? That's why.

quote: You don't have to, it's not my job to change your mind. Believe whatever the hell you want, I really don't care.

If you don't care what other people think, then why have you spent so much time on this thread? Now that seems vaguely contradictory.

	02-03-2003 11:01									#36
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quote: Originally posted by obiwan18 Not the whole, but the increment. I ask not whether your beliefs are completely right or correct, but rather whether you can improve your beliefs. We are human, we can't reach the point of complete consistency, despite what Agathon says. But we can get more right. Are your beliefs more right then they were before? If not, why do you believe what you do? Why did you discard your earlier beliefs?

I'm confused why you keep talking about "improve", "better", etc. I do not believe there is a moral highbar, somewhere that theoretically even constitutes correct and right.

Knowing that, why do you keep asking me if my beliefs are "more right" than before?

They are simply different.

	02-03-2003 11:02									#37
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quote: Originally posted by Frogger Jon, that's the point...that the metric we set on is a personal preference...but that doesn't mean that my ethics mean less to me than somebody who decides on them based on what he believes God wants. In other words, I don't defend somebody because he acts ethically according to his own set of rules; I judge them on my terms.

right

but couldn't you take the limit, and in the infinite universe there must be some being/beings that have the ethics of the limit

and couldn't you call those god(s)??

I guess it comes down to what you consider god to be

Jon Miller

	02-03-2003 11:02									#38
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quote: Why do you think that men should be given opportunity to get out of paying maintenance then? After all, men and women are in different situations - it is hardly as if the man has to endure the physical side of childbearing

This question deserves an answer, Frogger. But it can wait. Goodnight.

	02-03-2003 11:02									#39
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quote: Originally posted by Asher No, because there is no correct/right. It's more appropriate to what I know of the world and how I want to live my life. That in no way equates to correct/right.

If you simply believe and don't act upon your beliefs, then indeed, there is no differentiation between right and wrong, you can belive whatever the hell you want. But as soon as you start acting upon your beliefs, here is where life enters the game and corrects your wrong beliefs. If your beliefs are too wrong, you'll simply end up dead.

	02-03-2003 11:05									#40
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quote: What are "internal senses" by the way?

Memory or feelings related to how we think. There's no guarantee past the fact that there exists some sort of consciousness which is able to form the sentence "I am" and which has a certain set of memories and faculties at this precise instant. Everything else proceeds from assumption; that my memory has some sort of correspondence with reality, that my thought processes follow a certain order, that (proceeding to external senses) my vision somehow corresponds to reality, etc.

It's a long line of assumptions and belief to the idea that there are simple physical laws independant of the observer, the time, and the place are simply a bit further down. In between are things like "the rules of formal logic are self-consistent" and "human beings have a similar conscious existence to my own"...

	02-03-2003 11:06									#41
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quote: Originally posted by obiwan18 Asher: We are human, we can't reach the point of complete consistency, despite what Agathon says.

[slipping into Julius Caesar mode]

I'm not sure Agathon wants to say that generally speaking (although he might want to leave it open as a possibility). He definitely doesn't think we can reach the point of complete consistency in ethics.

quote: But we can get more right.

I definitely agree. I think philosophy can help here.

Goodnight for real this time.

	02-03-2003 11:07									#42
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon Surprising. But how did your beliefs change?

What kind of question is this?
My beliefs changed because I met more people, learned more about myself (and others), and thought it's simply more appropriate for how I want the world to be.

quote: Ever tried to think of a round square

You're comparing morals and beliefs to mathematical constructs we've devised...do you realize that?

quote: or tried consistently to hold that doing X is both right and wrong in the very same circumstances? That's why.

If someone says both X and Y are right AND wrong in the very same circumstances, they're a moron.

This is not the same as saying beliefs must logically agree with eachother, you gave a VERY restrictive and obvious case. What if, for example, one was against killing people, yet would kill someone who just murdered his/her SO infront of them? That's logically inconsistent, but we're humans and driven by emotion...

quote: If you don't care what other people think

Well, to be fair, I was saying I didn't care what you believed...

quote: then why have you spent so much time on this thread? Now that seems vaguely contradictory.

Because I find it interesting. Doesn't mean I care about what you think to the point of trying to change your mind, I do learn a lot more (not in your favor) by arguing with you about it though.

	02-03-2003 11:08									#43
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as far as my veiws on ethics

I don't think humans can actually know right ethics

we just get glimpses of correct ethics (the no slavery bit was deffinitely a recent glimpse, as is homosexual marriage I currently beleive)

Jon Miller

	02-03-2003 11:09									#44
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon This question deserves an answer, Frogger. But it can wait. Goodnight.

If you'll notice, the woman still has the final say in "to abort or not to abort"...but the unfair situation that her choice places the man under financial obligation has been removed.

	02-03-2003 11:09									#45
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quote: They are simply different.

Asher:
How are they different?

Jon. You anticipated my next question.

Has your understanding of the world increased?
If it has, then you have a very good reason to change you beliefs.

Otherwise, why bother?

	02-03-2003 11:09									#46
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quote: Originally posted by Frogger quote: What are "internal senses" by the way? Memory or feelings related to how we think. There's no guarantee past the fact that there exists some sort of consciousness which is able to form the sentence "I am" and which has a certain set of memories and faculties at this precise instant. Everything else proceeds from assumption; that my memory has some sort of correspondence with reality, that my thought processes follow a certain order, that (proceeding to external senses) my vision somehow corresponds to reality, etc.

I can't believe you're saying this. One of the big moves in philosophy of mind in the 20th century was debunking this Cartesian-like view of the mind.

And you know why they did it - because they thought it was disgracefully anti-scientific and thus a blot on the reputation of philosophy.

We're damned if we do....

	02-03-2003 11:10									#47
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quote: Originally posted by Frogger If you'll notice, the woman still has the final say in "to abort or not to abort"...but the unfair situation that her choice places the man under financial obligation has been removed.

That wasn't the question. Why is it unfair, given that there are differences (in other words, why aren't these differences morally relevant differences?)?

	02-03-2003 11:11									#48
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quote: I do learn a lot more (not in your favor) by arguing with you about it though.

The benefits of dialectic.

	02-03-2003 11:11									#49
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quote: Originally posted by The Vagabond If you simply believe and don't act upon your beliefs, then indeed, there is no differentiation between right and wrong, you can belive whatever the hell you want. But as soon as you start acting upon your beliefs, here is where life enters the game and corrects your wrong beliefs. If your beliefs are too wrong, you'll simply end up dead.

Sorry, but what's your point?
People may disagree with my beliefs and morals, and may kill me for it in theory, but does this prove there is an absolute right/wrong?

	02-03-2003 11:12									#50
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon That wasn't the question.

The question assumes I meant something that I didn't. From the last thread:

quote: He doesn't have the wherewithal to force a mother into the stirrups, but I see no reason why he should be forced to pay for something he didn't want and took reasonable precautions against when there is a legal, safe and cheap alternative.

	02-03-2003 11:13									#51
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quote: Originally posted by obiwan18 Asher: How are they different?

Specifically? I don't even want to get into that.

They're different because my views have changed. People's views change, you know.

A theist might think their views are changing for the better, towards some absolute measure, but I'm not a theist.

My beliefs are changing, and there is no supreme being, and there is no right/wrong -- right/wrong is what we make of it.

	02-03-2003 11:16									#52
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No the question was - given that the consequences of accidental pregnancy are different for men and women why should they have the same rights to absolve them of the burden of the child.

These are only preliminary questions.

By the way Asher - I'd like to point out to you that your relativist viewpoint is completely useless when it comes to public policy and other areas where people have to make real decisions. And it was you who accused philosophers of being useless.

	02-03-2003 11:18									#53
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon By the way Asher - I'd like to point out to you that your relativist viewpoint is completely useless when it comes to public policy and other areas where people have to make real decisions. And it was you who accused philosophers of being useless.

Surely you're aware that public policy should be formed on the basis of what the populace wants, not what the elitist philosophers think.

That's what polls are for, Agathon.

Do you understand democracy as a philosopher, or do you think philosophers should dictate what the public policies should be?

	02-03-2003 11:20									#54
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quote: Originally posted by Asher Sorry, but what's your point? People may disagree with my beliefs and morals, and may kill me for it in theory, but does this prove there is an absolute right/wrong?

Nothing absolute exists. This example simply shows that beliefs are not all exactly on the same level. Some reasonable differentiation between them is possible.

	02-03-2003 11:21									#55
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quote: Originally posted by The Vagabond Nothing absolute exists. This example simply shows that beliefs are not all exactly on the same level. Some reasonable differentiation between them is possible.

And I still have no idea why you said it...

I've never said beliefs are on the same level, or that you can't differentiate between them.

	02-03-2003 11:23									#56
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Asher, you said this:

quote: there is no correct/right.

which basically means that all beliefs are on the same level.

	02-03-2003 11:24									#57
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quote: I can't believe you're saying this. One of the big moves in philosophy of mind in the 20th century was debunking this Cartesian-like view of the mind.

How did you debunk it, praytell?

It is antiscientific if you don't let yourself accept certain things. But so is not accepting everything up until the scientific method. This is why philosophy is a trap. Until you just accept certain things (which things there is no proof of) you can't go anywhere. And the scientific method is one of those things...

	02-03-2003 11:25									#58
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quote: Originally posted by The Vagabond Asher, you said this: which basically means that all beliefs are on the same level.

Huh?

There is no ABSOLUTE correct/right is what I meant, obviously many people believe their views are right. And actions I do are "right" relative to my beliefs...my point was there is no absolute right/wrong beliefs, but your actions can be right/wrong relative to your beliefs.

	02-03-2003 11:25									#59
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quote: And you know why they did it - because they thought it was disgracefully anti-scientific and thus a blot on the reputation of philosophy.

So you're able to "disprove" or "debunk" certain ideas because of their fashionableness? Yup. Sounds about right to me...

	02-03-2003 11:27									#60
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quote: No the question was - given that the consequences of accidental pregnancy are different for men and women why should they have the same rights to absolve them of the burden of the child.

If you'll read my analogy you'll notice that an accident victim and the cause of the accident have undergone different consequences as well...