02-03-2003 11:29									#61
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by Asher There is no ABSOLUTE correct/right is what I meant, obviously many people believe their views are right. And actions I do are "right" relative to my beliefs...my point was there is no absolute right/wrong beliefs, but your actions can be right/wrong relative to your beliefs.

Very well. But what about the beliefs themselves? Can they be right or wrong relative to something? Your answer to this question seemed to be NO.

Edit: just some erratas.

	02-03-2003 11:32									#62
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by Frogger She is, since she makes the choice. If she doesn't want to pay she should get an abortion. There wouldn't be any argument about this if abortion wasn't such a contentious issue and people accepted the legal view that there is no child present prior to X point in the pregnancy. Let's take an analogy: I hit a woman accidentally in my car. She sustains a minor ankle injury and requires a 400$ visit to the doctor to put a plaster on her and take an xray. But she's from an obscure religious sect that believes that modern medicine is wrong. She requires a trip back to her native Hamjakistan accompanied by her entire family, a month of preparation and sacrifices to the gods, and finally a trip to the local medicine man who binds her ankle in vines. Total cost: 200 000$. Why should I have to pay her 200 000$ medical expenses when the 400$ fix was only unacceptable due to her moral objections, but was completely legal and safe?

The choice that she should have to make is whether to support only her half of the financial obligations or not, not all of it. Both parents of each child have a financial obligation to that child. It's not about your duty to her. It's about your duty to your child. More often than not, when a women makes a decision like this it's the state who has to pick up at least some of the bill if the father can't. The state should only have to do this when the father can't do it. You got the thrill, so you pay the bill. Society should not have to pay your bills, and either should the mother.

	02-03-2003 11:34									#63
	Inflate your Upload Space

quote: The choice that she should have to make is whether to support only her half of the financial obligations or not, not all of it. Both parents of each child have a financial obligation to that child. It's not about your duty to her. It's about your duty to your child. More often than not, when a women makes a decision like this it's the state who has to pick up at least some of the bill if the father can't. The state should only have to do this when the father can't do it. You got the thrill, so you pay the bill. Society should not have to pay your bills, and either should the mother

The man should have to make the same choice; if he says he wants the baby but she doesn't, and she chooses to bear the child for him then she should be absolved of financial responsibility.

	02-03-2003 11:36									#64
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

On the matter of philosophy courses:
There is a saying that it doesn't matter what they teach, it matters how they teach. This saying is quite relevant to philosophy courses. It may seem too intuitive to you, or you may even disagree with what they teach. But what matters is that, ideally, you are presented with an examplar of a line of reasoning. It's this reasoning pattern and its spirit that should remain in your subconsciousness for good.

	02-03-2003 11:36									#65
	Increase Your PM Length

quote: People's views change, you know.

You think I was born a Christian?

Asher, I'm not looking for the gory details, but more of an answer to Jon Miller's question of whether your understanding of the world has improved as you get more experienced.

I think you believe this is true, but you don't want to give me the satisfaction of saying so.

That's fine too.

I'm going to bed, so take care Asher.

	02-03-2003 11:37									#66
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

quote: Originally posted by The Vagabond Very well. But about the beliefs themselves? Can they be right or wrong relative to something? Your answer to this question seemed to be NO.

since something == null, the answer is obviously no.

	02-03-2003 11:40									#67
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by obiwan18 Asher, I'm not looking for the gory details, but more of an answer to Jon Miller's question of whether your understanding of the world has improved as you get more experienced. I think you believe this is true, but you don't want to give me the satisfaction of saying so. That's fine too.

Now you're starting to frustrate me.

Of course my understanding of the world has improved, I've said this many times, that doesn't mean my beliefs are "better" -- better implies there is a scale of right/wrong.

My beliefs are certainly not "better" now, they're just different. I'm really don't understand why this is difficult.

Seeing as there is no bars set for what is good and bad, there cannot be anything which is "more good" or "more bad" -- that's fundamental stuff.

	02-03-2003 11:41									#68
	Increase the size of your Attachments

quote: Originally posted by Asher since something == null, the answer is obviously no.

It's not null. For example, your beliefs can be considered good or bad with regard to your prospective survival. So it's not null.

	02-03-2003 11:41									#69
	Put an end to popups!

quote: Originally posted by The Vagabond On the matter of philosophy courses: There is a saying that it doesn't matter what they teach, it matters how they teach. This saying is quite relevant to philosophy courses. It may seem too intuitive to you, or you may even disagree with what they teach. But what matters is that, ideally, you are presented with an examplar of a line of reasoning. It's this reasoning pattern and its spirit that should remain in your subconsciousness for good.

I don't need to be presented with linear reasoning in a philosophy class, I've been doing it for a LONG time before I ever took that class.

	02-03-2003 11:42									#70
	Inflate your Upload Space

quote: Originally posted by The Vagabond It's not null. For example, your beliefs can be considered good or bad with regard to your prospective survival. So it's not null.

Survival is null, unless you're immortal.

	02-03-2003 11:43									#71
	Suffering from ads?

quote: Originally posted by Frogger quote: The choice that she should have to make is whether to support only her half of the financial obligations or not, not all of it. Both parents of each child have a financial obligation to that child. It's not about your duty to her. It's about your duty to your child. More often than not, when a women makes a decision like this it's the state who has to pick up at least some of the bill if the father can't. The state should only have to do this when the father can't do it. You got the thrill, so you pay the bill. Society should not have to pay your bills, and either should the mother The man should have to make the same choice; if he says he wants the baby but she doesn't, and she chooses to bear the child for him then she should be absolved of financial responsibility.

This is a situation that is not likely to happen very often. However I would have to say that if they made some agreement. That is, if she agreed to bear the child for him but be absolved of financial responsibility that would be fair. It's mutually agreed upon.

	02-03-2003 11:47									#72
	Tired of ads?

quote: Originally posted by Asher I don't need to be presented with linear reasoning in a philosophy class, I've been doing it for a LONG time before I ever took that class.

Very well. The classes were too easy for you. But this is not a problem with philosophy as such. It's just a problem with your classes.

Or perhaps you simply didn't pay attention to the line of reasoning as a whole. You just singled out certain points that were too obvious and intuitive to you and decided that the whole course was just a BS.

	02-03-2003 11:48									#73
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

The main point FOR Philosophy (and yes, it has turned into a 'philosophy is useless' thread, not matter what your protestations, Asher) is that every social construct has been created and defined through philosophy. Every political system and ethical belief are philosophy through and through.

	02-03-2003 11:49									#74
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

Think it through, Duncan.

By not agreeing to have an abortion the woman is giving her consent to the opposite situation (where she pays and the man doesn't) once the man has made his intentions clear.

	02-03-2003 11:49									#75
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

frogger,

Even still. Both parents should be responsible for the child. If the father couldn't support the child by himself like he promised the mother would still be responsible to do so.

	02-03-2003 11:50									#76
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui The main point FOR Philosophy (and yes, it has turned into a 'philosophy is useless' thread, not matter what your protestations, Asher) is that every social construct has been created and defined through philosophy. Every political system and ethical belief are philosophy through and through.

This argument is particularly frustrating because we've abstracted philosophy to such a general definition that it can cover anything which involves "thinking". This way we can prove that without thinking, we'd be nowhere, ergo philosophy is useful.

	02-03-2003 11:50									#77
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

quote: The main point FOR Philosophy (and yes, it has turned into a 'philosophy is useless' thread, not matter what your protestations, Asher) is that every social construct has been created and defined through philosophy. Every political system and ethical belief are philosophy through and through.

But this assumes a definition of philosophy which makes philosophers out of everybody who makes any decisions...which means that you still haven't proven the value of philosophy as a formal discipline.

	02-03-2003 11:51									#78
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

Hah. Xpost with Asher.

	02-03-2003 11:51									#79
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

exactly

scientists are still natural philosophers, they just don't study formal philosophy, and don't need to

Jon Miller

	02-03-2003 11:52									#80
	Full PM-box? Change here!

quote: Originally posted by DuncanK frogger, Even still. Both parents should be responsible for the child. If the father couldn't support the child by himself like he promised the mother would still be responsible to do so.

I don't think so.

Just because it's his genetic material?

The obligation to support a child comes from your decision to have the child. Period.

	02-03-2003 11:55									#81
	Get a bigger avatar today!

I agree

Jon Miller

(but am anti-abortion for all but health reasons)

	02-03-2003 11:55									#82
	Suffering from ads?

quote: Originally posted by Asher I absolutely detested the two Philosophy of Logic courses I took. It felt like I was back in high school when they explained obvious things to you and the people around you act like it's so hard to understand and/or profound...

Finally someone who shared the same fate. That's exactly how I felt too. Oh yeah and I've had just 2 courses too so I only heard about the basics. I sat next to total dumbass.
Btw should I read the threads?

	02-03-2003 11:58									#83
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

quote: Originally posted by Frogger Think it through, Duncan. By not agreeing to have an abortion the woman is giving her consent to the opposite situation (where she pays and the man doesn't) once the man has made his intentions clear.

By not agreeing? The women is the only one to make the decision. There is no agreement. Her decision should be based on whether she wants the child or not, not whether the father wants to have the financial responsibilty.

	02-03-2003 11:58									#84
	Remove this text

quote: Originally posted by Jon Miller I agree Jon Miller (but am anti-abortion for all but health reasons)

I respect that, by the way...

I just happen to disagree with it.

	02-03-2003 11:58									#85
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

quote: But this assumes a definition of philosophy which makes philosophers out of everybody who makes any decisions...which means that you still haven't proven the value of philosophy as a formal discipline.

The same as history. To learn about the ideals of past great thinkers and see which ones make the most sense in the world.

In a sense you can say philosophers are the ones that make decisions, but the major decisions should be studied and dissected, and it should be shown if they are right or wrong, and then (hopefully) applied.

	02-03-2003 11:59									#86
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

quote: Originally posted by tinyp3nis Finally someone who shared the same fate. That's exactly how I felt too. Oh yeah and I've had just 2 courses too so I only heard about the basics. I sat next to total dumbass. Btw should I read the threads?

Not unless you want to see a bunch of people slamming philosophy, and a bunch of other people avoiding the questions and abstracting philosophy to equal "thinking" in order to paint it as useful.

	02-03-2003 12:03									#87
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

quote: Originally posted by Frogger I respect that, by the way... I just happen to disagree with it.

I agree that raising children you don't want should nto be done

but I am not sure how to fix it

there are a lot of people who want to adopt kids (that don't have drug or abuse troubles)

but I am not sure on the numbers

Jon Miller

	02-03-2003 12:04									#88
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

quote: Originally posted by Frogger I don't think so. Just because it's his genetic material? The obligation to support a child comes from your decision to have the child. Period.

frogger,

Our obligations are often seperate from our choices. No man is an island. We have obligations to each other, especially our family. Society has an obligation to the child, so why shouldn't the father? The father was the one who decided to have sex. He is the one who got the thrill. Someone has to provide for the child. It's either going to be the father or society. So are you saying that society is more responsible than the father? Or are you saying that if the mother can't provide for the child than the child should just do without?

	02-03-2003 12:07									#89
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

women decide to ahve sex as much as the father

Jon Miller

	02-03-2003 12:08									#90
	Increase the size of your Attachments

quote: By not agreeing? The women is the only one to make the decision. There is no agreement. Her decision should be based on whether she wants the child or not, not whether the father wants to have the financial responsibilty.

She's the only one to make the decision on the abortion. She shouldn't be the only one to be able to make the decision on whether she will support the child.

Her decision should be based on whether or not she wants the responsibility, just like the father's is.

Let us look at the possible situations:

Father wants, mother wants: no problem, same under both systems (they have the child, both are responsible)

Father doesn't want, mother doesn't want: no problem, same under both systems (abortion)

Father wants, mother doesn't want: either the father agrees to take on sole responsibility for the child or the mother definitely has an abortion (same in both systems...I'm sure there are precedents for some sort of prenatal agreement like this); if the father agrees the mother still has the fundamental right to decide whether or not she will undergo childbirth

Father doesn't want, mother wants: under the current system, the mother's decision to have the child forces the man to bear responsibility for the child which is thereby brought into being at X point in the future. Under my system, the mother has to make the same choice the father did in case 3 above, but she still retains the fundamental right to decide whether or not she will have the child or undergo an abortion.

Now compare this to the analogy I gave you ages ago. The woman has every right to decide whether or not she'll submit to modern medicine, but the man driving the car should have no responsibility to financially support her decision to forego the cheaper safe alternative in exchange for the expensive trip.