02-03-2003 13:28									#121
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quote: Originally posted by Ramo Math is building a system from a set of assumptions based on the logical rule of the invalidity of contradiction. So is philosophy. Philosophical assumptions are not substantially different from mathematical ones.

Not quite so. Philosophy can't be considered as an axiomatic system in the same way as mathematics. Proof as it is understood in mathematics doesn't exist in philosophy. The whole argument in philosophy is based on reasonableness, not just on pure logic.

BTW, the notion of contradiction may be part of a philosophical system. For example, one and the same thing can be good and bad simultaneously: good in one sense, and bad in another. This is not allowed in mathematics: the thing is either "good" or "bad".

quote: It's just that a lot of philosophy ends up being logically dubious while math usually is very rigorous in maintaing logical validity.

Sure, it does, it is. They are simply different sciences, with different scopes.

	02-03-2003 13:28									#122
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Asher, just realized that my previous post was redundant. Good job

	02-03-2003 13:29									#123
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That a woman's decision to have the child should bind the father into paying for it. You're arguing that we should bribe women away from having abortions, with the men's money.

	02-03-2003 13:29									#124
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quote: Originally posted by Jon Miller well if the father had to pay more, tha father would need more, and so receive more I don't see why the process has to go through so many steps, when just one is needed Jon Miller

The father would only need more if he weren't able to afford his part. If he's not able to pay the whole of his part he should have to pay as much as he can.

	02-03-2003 13:33									#125
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quote: Originally posted by Frogger That a woman's decision to have the child should bind the father into paying for it. You're arguing that we should bribe women away from having abortions, with the men's money.

What? The women is not getting anything from it. She is still responsible for her part. The fathers part goes to support the child. In addition to her financial responsibility, she will be doing all the work, unless the man agreed to do some. You want to make it seem that she will be better off financially from having the child.

	02-03-2003 13:35									#126
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If I wasn't worried about Ming's heavy hand I'd start a thread called "Ask the Philosophers" where we can ask the wise men like Agathon all of our questions about the values of things, since us puny mortals are incapable of figuring this out ourselves.

Really, wouldn't it be great to finally realize the value of computers? I know I'm dying to know the answer of what this doohickey does!

	02-03-2003 13:40									#127
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quote: What? The women is not getting anything from it

Yes she is.

	02-03-2003 13:42									#128
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quote: How is math based on assumptions?

You assume what properties real numbers have, what the multiplaction means, and work from there. 5*6 doesn't mean anything by itself.

quote: edit: can you explain invalidity of contradiction?

If I say A is B, and then I say A is not B, there's a contradiction. Contradiction is the definition of logical invalidity, and this principle is the foundation of all math.

quote: Not quite so. Philosophy can't be considered as an axiomatic system in the same way as mathematics. Proof as it is understood in mathematics doesn't exist in philosophy. The whole argument in philosophy is based on reasonableness, not just on pure logic.

That's why I said a lot of philosophy is logically crap. Any philosophy based on faulty logic isn't relevant IMO.

quote: BTW, the notion of contradiction may be part of a philosophical system. For example, one and the same thing can be good and bad simultaneously: good in one sense, and bad in another. This is not allowed in mathematics: the thing is either "good" or "bad".

For something to be good and bad simultaneously isn't a well-defined assertion. It is neither good, nor bad. That's the problem with English; it lets you get away with bad logic too easily.

But it's true that the validity of contradiction could be a premise behind a philosophical system. It's just that such a system wouldn't be particularly useful.

quote: Sure, it does, it is. They are simply different sciences, with different scopes.

Actually, neither are sciences.

	02-03-2003 13:43									#129
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frogger,

You are also not considering the case where the man doesn't really want the abortion, but knows that the women will not want one. Then he claims to want the abortion to get out supporting his children.

	02-03-2003 13:45									#130
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quote: Originally posted by Frogger quote: What? The women is not getting anything from it Yes she is.

She is getting a child, but she is paying half to support that child. That's all she should pay, because there are two parents.

	02-03-2003 13:46									#131
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quote: Originally posted by DuncanK frogger, You are also not considering the case where the man doesn't really want the abortion, but knows that the women will not want one. Then he claims to want the abortion to get out supporting his children.

actually, this is a good counterargument

Jon Miller

	02-03-2003 13:47									#132
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So what? He wouldn't have any right to see his children. And if the mother wants to have the child of a man that doesn't love his own children enough to support them and in addition bear sole responsibility for their maintenance then she deserves what she gets.

The same situation is possible in reverse, you know. Too bad. The people involved agreed to it either explicitly or implicitly.

	02-03-2003 13:48									#133
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For the uninitiated, what we're witnessing here is that you don't need to be a philosopher to be a philosopher.

	02-03-2003 13:48									#134
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And currently you can have the situation where a woman uses the man as a sperm bank + line of credit...

	02-03-2003 13:49									#135
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quote: Originally posted by DuncanK She is getting a child, but she is paying half to support that child. That's all she should pay, because there are two parents.

The man doesn't want the child but she is forcing him to buy in.

	02-03-2003 13:50									#136
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well

the father of my sisters two children hasn't worked a day in his life

so she gets no money from him (I think he is out of prison now though)

Jon Miller
as for how he lives?

he bums of people, even my sister (who usually bums off others)

	02-03-2003 13:51									#137
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Maybe she'd have tossed him on his ass if she knew that he'd rather she had an abortion than have to pay for half.

	02-03-2003 13:53									#138
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he hasn't (and will never I predict) pay for anything

he doesn't work

she tried to live with him (a couple times) but he was such a sap to her resources (which are slim with no education and kids) that she kicked him out

Jon Miller

	02-03-2003 13:55									#139
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m point is that not all women use the men like a sperm bank + credit line

I am pretty sure she did not plan on getting pregnant (either time)

Jon Miller

	02-03-2003 13:58									#140
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quote: Originally posted by Ramo That's why I said a lot of philosophy is logically crap. Any philosophy based on faulty logic isn't relevant IMO.

It's not that logic is faulty. It's that philosophy is not based exclusively on logic.

quote: For something to be good and bad simultaneously isn't a well-defined assertion. It is neither good, nor bad. That's the problem with English; it lets you get away with bad logic too easily.

It's not the "problem" with English. In Russian this idea can be expressed too.

And what's your problem with one thing being good and bad simultaneously? It may be good in one sense, but bad in another sense.

quote: But it's true that the validity of contradiction could be a premise behind a philosophical system. It's just that such a system wouldn't be particularly useful.

This depends on what is meant by 'contradiction'. For example, the notion of contradiction is central to Gegel's system, and appears in the second law of dialectics.

quote: Actually, neither are sciences.

It depends on what the meaning of the word "is" is.

Well, OK, it depends on the definition, I can agree with you on this point.

	02-03-2003 14:01									#141
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Science is the scientific method. The scientific method is science.

	02-03-2003 14:02									#142
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Unborn child is a part of mother's body. Her right to do whatever she wants with her body is a God-given, natural, biological right. It obviously takes precedence of whatever rights or duties the father may have, because the latter are just society-imposed. Therefore fathers should have no decisive say in the matter of abortion, irrespective of any possible financial consequences or other societal effects.

	02-03-2003 14:04									#143
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quote: Originally posted by Frogger So what? He wouldn't have any right to see his children. And if the mother wants to have the child of a man that doesn't love his own children enough to support them and in addition bear sole responsibility for their maintenance then she deserves what she gets.

How does she deserve this? Better question, how does the child deserve this if the mother cant support or society doesn't support?

quote: Originally posted by Frogger The same situation is possible in reverse, you know. Too bad. The people involved agreed to it either explicitly or implicitly.

That the women would claim to want an abortion to get out of paying her half of support? Is this a real possibility?

	02-03-2003 14:05									#144
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Nobody said that the father had any right to force the mother into the stirrups.

Just like nobody can force the woman in my yet-to-be-discounted analogy to get cosmetic surgery.

	02-03-2003 14:08									#145
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quote: That the women would claim to want an abortion to get out of paying her half of support? Is this a real possibility?

Why not?

Come on, now; you're setting up all women as angels. I'm setting up a system in which both sexes are treated as equally as possible given the differences inherent in the roles.

quote: How does she deserve this? Better question, how does the child deserve this if the mother cant support or society doesn't support?

She deserves it because she would choose to bear sole responsibility for the child. You're telling me that women shouldn't have to make the same sort of hard choices that men are forced to nowadays when the situation is reversed.

	02-03-2003 14:08									#146
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quote: Originally posted by Frogger Science is the scientific method. The scientific method is science.

This resembles me one of Jean Chretien's quotes in another thread.

	02-03-2003 14:11									#147
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frogger,

Surely there are some idiots who will get pregnant for financial gain, but the majority of women see that it is not a good way to get rich. You only get a portion of your costs back and it's a tremendous amount of work. Worse, most men really don't like to get to involved with women who have kids. I don't think you are being totally fair to women.

	02-03-2003 14:11									#148
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No, because most people don't think a proof isn't a proof, while on this very thread some people are claiming that disciplines don't have to use the scientific method in order to be science.

*Stares intently at Vagabond

	02-03-2003 14:13									#149
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quote: Originally posted by DuncanK frogger, Surely there are some idiots who will get pregnant for financial gain, but the majority of women see that it is not a good way to get rich. You only get a portion of your costs back and it's a tremendous amount of work. Worse, most men really don't like to get to involved with women who have kids. I don't think you are being totally fair to women.

So what? You're claiming that men will ask the woman to get an abortion because they want to get out of paying the costs, but that women won't?

Come on. You assume the best of the fairer sex. I think they're both equally slimy.

	02-03-2003 14:15									#150
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quote: Originally posted by Frogger She deserves it because she would choose to bear sole responsibility for the child. You're telling me that women shouldn't have to make the same sort of hard choices that men are forced to nowadays when the situation is reversed.

She doesn't choose to bear sole responsibility. Women have never made that choice. Before there were child support laws men made those choices. Women never agreed to it.