02-03-2003 12:10									#91
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quote: Originally posted by Jon Miller women decide to ahve sex as much as the father Jon Miller

I never expected to have you as an ally on this issue.

I do bear in mind, though, that your support stems from an assumption you do not agree with (morally speaking)

	02-03-2003 12:11									#92
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Regarding the existence of an absolute ethical metric, you have to ask what you think ethics are. An ethical system is the mapping of value judgements to certain social interactions. But the only things with the ability to place value judgements on social interactions are individuals with complex enough brains. Certainly not inanimate objects or more primative animals, etc. So ethical metrics are dependent upon each individual's brain. So there is no absolute ethical metric unless all individuals have the same ethical metric (a deity puts a "conscience" into everyone, etc.).

If a deity exists, It can place value judgements on social interactions too. But that hardly means that Its value judgements are "correct," while all others are "false." You must assume that Its ethical metric is correct to establish that it's correct. Thus, the metric is no longer absolute.

	02-03-2003 12:13									#93
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This is from the previous thread:

quote: Originally posted by Frogger Other questions impossible to answer: positivism, realism, theism, etc. You see a pattern? Every last fundamental divide of philosophy. Philosophical questions are rather easy to unravel to their lowest point, and beyond that is a question of belief, not reason.

Certainly, several lines of thought coexist in philosophy at any given time. It has always been like this, and it will always be (unless the absolute truth is reached, which is impossible). Which line you adhere to is a question of belief and taste. However what makes philosophy a science is the following circumstance: these lines of thought evolve, some views die out within each line. So it's not a complete arbitrariness. At any given time, only those views survive that are reasonably not in contradiction with the world picture given by sciences. However, this doesn't mean that these views may not contradict to each other.

	02-03-2003 12:14									#94
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There is an absolut metric, and it's mine. Everybody else is just deluded (apart from the uncertainties I acknowledge in my ethics...on those other people's opinions are welcome and slightly more valid)

	02-03-2003 12:16									#95
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exactly

Jon Miller

	02-03-2003 12:17									#96
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quote: However what makes philosophy a science is the following circumstance: these lines of thought evolve, some views die out within each line

The question is why they die out. My contention is that generally it's just because people stop believing in them because they fall out of fashion, not because there's been any argument that disproves them.

To be a science they would have to rely on some slightly more objective evidence like science does. To be mathematics they would have to practice a great deal more formalism in their reasoning. As it stands they are neither, and have demonstrated it by going in circles for 2500 years.

	02-03-2003 12:17									#97
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quote: Originally posted by Frogger There is an absolut metric

Are you a fan of Absolut?

	02-03-2003 12:17									#98
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quote: Originally posted by Frogger I never expected to have you as an ally on this issue. I do bear in mind, though, that your support stems from an assumption you do not agree with (morally speaking)

I am not ceartin where I would be (disregarding my disagreement with the practice of abortion for social reasons)

but it is interesting to play out your side

Jon Miller

	02-03-2003 12:18									#99
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quote: Originally posted by Frogger quote: By not agreeing? The women is the only one to make the decision. There is no agreement. Her decision should be based on whether she wants the child or not, not whether the father wants to have the financial responsibilty. She's the only one to make the decision on the abortion. She shouldn't be the only one to be able to make the decision on whether she will support the child. Her decision should be based on whether or not she wants the responsibility, just like the father's is.

She shouldn't have to take on the fathers responsibility just because she doesn't want an abotion. There are consequences for abotions. They can cause emotional trauma, especially if the women didn't want it but made the wrong decision.

quote: Originally posted by Frogger Now compare this to the analogy I gave you ages ago. The woman has every right to decide whether or not she'll submit to modern medicine, but the man driving the car should have no responsibility to financially support her decision to forego the cheaper safe alternative in exchange for the expensive trip.

An abortion does not qualify as medicine in the same way that you are considering it to be. It's not a necessary proceedure. A women should not have to agree to take on a mans financial responsibility just because she doesn't want to have an abortion.

	02-03-2003 12:18									#100
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quote: Originally posted by Asher Are you a fan of Absolut?

The last vodka I drank ended up in my toilet bowl, and not as urine.

	02-03-2003 12:21									#101
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quote: There is an absolut metric, and it's mine. Everybody else is just deluded (apart from the uncertainties I acknowledge in my ethics...on those other people's opinions are welcome and slightly more valid)

But you can't make any assumptions for it to be absolute. Of course, there is a correct ethical metric and it is mine.

	02-03-2003 12:24									#102
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quote: She shouldn't have to take on the fathers responsibility just because she doesn't want an abotion. There are consequences for abotions. They can cause emotional trauma, especially if the women didn't want it but made the wrong decision.

There can be emotional traumas for the woman who visits the evil modern doctor simply because she has to bear the financial burden should she choose the more expensive option. Tough.

quote: An abortion does not qualify as medicine in the same way that you are considering it to be. It's not a necessary proceedure. A women should not have to agree to take on a mans financial responsibility just because she doesn't want to have an abortion.

Really. Think it through. Rewrite the analogy: you hit the woman, she gets a cut that scars on her face. She was a model. She doesn't believe in modern medicine. She sues you for lost earnings from her modelling career worth 200 000$, but she could avoid these losses by getting a safe, 400$ surgery done to remove the scar. Now to make it more realistic make sure you include that you and her are both at equal fault for the accident.

	02-03-2003 12:25									#103
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quote: Originally posted by Frogger quote: However what makes philosophy a science is the following circumstance: these lines of thought evolve, some views die out within each line The question is why they die out. My contention is that generally it's just because people stop believing in them because they fall out of fashion, not because there's been any argument that disproves them.

You know, even the Catholic Church has been forced to revise some of its view, and interpretations of the Bible. And the reason for that was not just a "fashion". It was done under the pressure of scientific evidence.

quote: To be a science they would have to rely on some slightly more objective evidence like science does. To be mathematics they would have to practice a great deal more formalism in their reasoning.

Philosophy is not mathematics, it's not an exact science at all. Thus it's not surprising that the methods of reasoning are different.

quote: As it stands they are neither, and have demonstrated it by going in circles for 2500 years.

Not in circles! Each time the circle repeats itself on a higher level. Thus it's a spiral. This is the third law of dialectics (Gegel).

	02-03-2003 12:25									#104
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quote: Originally posted by Ramo But you can't make any assumptions for it to be absolute. Of course, there is a correct ethical metric and it is mine.

It's mine, you *****.

And of course I can't prove it...

	02-03-2003 12:30									#105
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quote: You know, even the Catholic Church has been forced to revise some of its view, and interpretations of the Bible. And the reason for that was not just a "fashion". It was done under the pressure of scientific evidence.

So a philosophy that says the Earth is the centre of the Universe has been disproven? Congratulations. I don't know about you, but in my mind this proves the utility of science, not philosophy.

In order to be progressing philosophy would have to correct itself.

quote: Philosophy is not mathematics, it's not an exact science at all. Thus it's not surprising that the methods of reasoning are different.

And it's not surprising that it ends up being futile when the concepts you deal with are so difficult to define that every argument boils down to one of definition.

quote: Not in circles! Each time the circle repeats itself on a higher level. Thus it's a spiral. This is the third law of dialectics (Gegel).

Only true if you can show that philosophy has debunked some of its own thoeries in such a way that they can't rise again in their exact previous form were fashions to change.

	02-03-2003 12:30									#106
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quote: Philosophy is not mathematics, it's not an exact science at all. Thus it's not surprising that the methods of reasoning are different.

Actually, philosophy is mathematics. It's just that a lot of philosophy is logically crap.

	02-03-2003 12:41									#107
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frogger,

Pregnancy is not an illness. A person should not have to have a medical proceedure to absolve someone else of their financial obligations. If that person has an illness, that's different.

	02-03-2003 12:45									#108
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quote: Originally posted by Frogger So a philosophy that says the Earth is the centre of the Universe has been disproven? Congratulations. I don't know about you, but in my mind this proves the utility of science, not philosophy. In order to be progressing philosophy would have to correct itself.

Philosophy relies on science, and its ability to correct itself while remaining within itself is quite limited.

quote: And it's not surprising that it ends up being futile when the concepts you deal with are so difficult to define that every argument boils down to one of definition.

Mathematically precise definitions are impossible in philosophy. It's a different science after all. Yes, a lot of discussion in philosophy revolves around definitions (or better to say concepts).

quote: quote: Not in circles! Each time the circle repeats itself on a higher level. Thus it's a spiral. This is the third law of dialectics (Gegel). Only true if you can show that philosophy has debunked some of its own thoeries in such a way that they can't rise again in their exact previous form were fashions to change.

That they can't arise again in their exact previous form we should thank first of all science.

**********************
OK, in essence, my answer to all your remarks is "And so what?"

	02-03-2003 12:45									#109
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quote: Originally posted by Ramo Actually, philosophy is mathematics.

How so?

	02-03-2003 12:47									#110
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quote: Originally posted by DuncanK frogger, Pregnancy is not an illness. A person should not have to have a medical proceedure to absolve someone else of their financial obligations. If that person has an illness, that's different.

A scar is an illness? It's called cosmetic surgery for a reason.

	02-03-2003 12:52									#111
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quote: Originally posted by Frogger A scar is an illness? It's called cosmetic surgery for a reason.

You shouldn't force someone to have that surgery either, but I don't think that you should have to pay for all of her future wages either. There should be some other payment if she decided against the surgery. There's a big difference between someone not wanting to have cosmetic surgery and someone not wanting to have an abortion, because they don't believe in it.

	02-03-2003 13:08									#112
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quote: How so?

Math is building a system from a set of assumptions based on the logical rule of the invalidity of contradiction. So is philosophy. Philosophical assumptions are not substantially different from mathematical ones. It's just that a lot of philosophy ends up being logically dubious while math usually is very rigorous in maintaing logical validity.

	02-03-2003 13:10									#113
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frogger,

A pregnant women should have the right to have her child. You can't take away her right to be a parent. That being said, the father has a responsibility to his child the same as the mother. People should not have to take on someone elses responsibility just because they don't want to give up their rights.

	02-03-2003 13:12									#114
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Ramo,

How is math based on assumptions?

edit: can you explain invalidity of contradiction?

	02-03-2003 13:16									#115
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quote: Originally posted by DuncanK frogger, A pregnant women should have the right to have her child. You can't take away her right to be a parent. That being said, the father has a responsibility to his child the same as the mother. People should not have to take on someone elses responsibility just because they don't want to give up their rights.

I would say that the government should be responsible (as well as her family)

this indirectly puts the father as responisble (he is paying taxes)

bu tnot directly

Jon Miller

	02-03-2003 13:21									#116
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Agathon:

quote: if we really want to know why a certain scientific theory is right we have to look at the reasons why and the reasons for that, and the reasons for that and so on. In the end you end up asking philosophical questions about the nature of knowledge. In other words, questions about realism and anti realism, about reduction, scepticism, holism, supervenience, concepts, representationalism and emergence.

Nope. Reality exists, that is all we need to know.

If you feel the need to question it, feel free to do so. Just don't pretend it has any meaning or intrinsic worth.

quote: Perhaps you don't, you certainly don't need to to engage in the practical business of science, but people who are interested in knowledge for its own sake do, including our friend Albert Einstein who remarked, "science without epistemology is - insofar as it is thinkable at all - primitive and muddled" although he did warn us about the practical consequences of scientists focusing too much on epistemology.

Ahh, you certainly do know how to pick them. Should I engage in the favorite pasttime of Plato: to lead you on with questions to expose your lack of knowledge?

Nah, would take too long.

Basically, Einstein was a physicist, and later in life a philosopher. His career as a physicist also effectively ended at the same point. Was this a coincidence? I don't know. Even if there was a cause and efect, in what direction would it go? Did his preoccupation with the useless prevent him from pondering anything of value, or did he lose the inspiration for things of value and thus turned to the useless? We will never know.

quote: But I suppose that you lot are just so much brighter than he was. He must have been a really lousy scientist to have been so wrong.

Ahhh, more sarcasm from someone who don't know what they are talking about. Beautiful.

	02-03-2003 13:23									#117
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quote: Originally posted by Jon Miller I would say that the government should be responsible (as well as her family) this indirectly puts the father as responisble (he is paying taxes) bu tnot directly Jon Miller

Jon Miller,

Why should everyone be equally responsible. The parents are the ones who had the sex. I agree that society should be responsible to provide for the needs of people who can't provide for their own needs, but the father should be the one to pay if he can. It's in the best interest of the child, and it's in the best interest of society for parents to be responsible for their children when they can.

	02-03-2003 13:24									#118
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well if the father had to pay more, tha father would need more, and so receive more

I don't see why the process has to go through so many steps, when just one is needed



Jon Miller

	02-03-2003 13:25									#119
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quote: You can add to this that science can't really tell us anything at all about value, which happens to be the most important thing in life (trying thinking of what living life would be like if you ignored the notion of value). That's why we snobby philosophers let you science peasants do the donkey work and invent "nice" things while we bother with stuff that matters. So if you think scientific results are so great, what do they tell us about the notion of value? What political system do they offer support for?

Are you high? Why would science answer those questions? These are questions each and every human will have to answer for himself.

quote: Of course the usual response of the science loving philistine is to deny any objective notion of value, usually without an argument or a really lame one like Asher's "everyone has their own morals, so there must be no moral knowledge" which is a bluntly fallacious inference. But essentially it is a philosophical question anyway.

Possibly, but not something a selfproclaimed "thinker" will settle for me.

You just don't get that part, do you? It doesn't matter what you or 500 other philosophers deduce about "value". If you decide opera is the highest form of enjoyment, I still won't like it. If you decide "helping others" is the highest calling, I will still go out for beers on friday night.

	02-03-2003 13:27									#120
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quote: A pregnant women should have the right to have her child

Who's stopping her? She also has the responsibility to pay for it should she choose to have it. You're arguing that women should be able to have their cake and eat it too.