04-03-2003 16:33									#31
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Spiffor : please note that the Coke sold in french MacDonalds is made... in France, so in fact you would boycott a french product (and i guess it's the same for some "french" product sold in the US).
That's why this kind of boycott is rather stupid

	04-03-2003 17:46									#32
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Ive banned French products from my household (as much as possible) and South African (for support of Mughabi)..

All I can say for MacDonalds in Paris is .. IT WAS HEAVING !!! to say the French don't like MacDonalds is just not true, Ive been all over France, and yet to find a single empty MacDonalds .. and they are everywhere.

Ive started buying US goods more these days as well ..

The sooner the UK leaves the EU and joins Nafta the better if you ask me .

	04-03-2003 19:34									#33
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quote: Originally posted by The Mad Monk By the end of elementary school??? Was this limited to you, or was it common among elementary school grads? BTW, just to avoid confusion, American elementary school stops around age ten.

It was completely uncommon, I was the only one to do it in my elem. or Junior high. Everybody in the school wondered why I did this. Better, everybosy in the school, until Senior High, even wondered why I "disliked Americans". Yes, in French schools, America was deemed great and fantastic, and my anti-American behaviour was completely off-topic
I wonder if America is as popular by kids as before now.

Ah, and I became aware of Antiamericanism around the age between 9 and 11 (cloudy memories), but I was very early.

Menlas :
Actually, I don't believe I hurt the US economy whatsoever by boycotting American products. I want to fight symbolism of the American cultural invasion, so I boycott targeted products :
- McDonald's and all clones. I ate only once American fast food since my childhood : in San Diego, because my brother wanted to show me typical American food (he argued In'n Outs were great)
- Coca Cola and similar : includes Pepsi, Mecca Cola (), all rpoducts from the Coca Cola company
- Hollywood movies even though I softened around 14 for the sake of sociability
- Jeans (granted, this becomes more irrelevant as age goes, because jeans are much less hip in my age range than in school)

These products aren't very relevant to American economy. I support it much more by buying my Dell computers than I could hurt it by boycotting these products, but Dell isn't an invader of my culture, so I have no problems with it.

	04-03-2003 19:43									#34
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quote: I really hate American cultural imperialism

I really hate the implication that there is any such thing.

Cultural imperialism... please

Nobody is forcing anyone to buy BigMacs, watch Hollywood movies or by Ford Escorts.

Jesus H. Christ!

-Arrian

	04-03-2003 19:51									#35
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Adam Smith:

quote: TW, McDonalds is now losing money in the US as people get tired of it and want something better to eat.

I hesitate to argue anything economic with Adam Smith but I heard that the main reason McD is losing money is that it is in a price war with Burger King and Wendys. It's that dollar/99 cent menu that is sapping profits. Folks with small children still have to go for fast food if they want to eat out.

	04-03-2003 19:55									#36
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor Ah, and I became aware of Antiamericanism around the age between 9 and 11 (cloudy memories), but I was very early.

You are aware, that these numbers, if combined, are satanic, aren't you? Come on, confess that you're Al Qaeda member.

	04-03-2003 20:11									#37
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Yeah, boycottts are great, everyone should do it to everyone else. Free trade is nonsense. Back in the old days, people made their own bread, cheese and wine.

Ok, that was some hundred years ago

	04-03-2003 20:12									#38
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor I want to fight symbolism of the American cultural invasion...

Oh boy, the good ol' euro left...

	04-03-2003 20:19									#39
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Spiffor:

quote: Consuming American culture is just a reflex here. People don't care about it in their choice of consumption.

Doesn't this suggest that "cultural imperialism" is not an important issue?

quote: French agriculture one of the most competitive in the world if the market was free ... Also, these subsidies are needed to keep an old peasant tradition alive, because their end would basically mean the end of small agricultural exploitations.

These statements appear to be contradictory, unless you are talking about French high-end products (wine, cheese) vs. US bulk commodities (corn, wheat). Please note that my conversation was with a wheat farmer.

Gunkulator:

quote: the main reason McD is losing money is that it is in a price war with Burger King and Wendys. It's that dollar/99 cent menu that is sapping profits. Folks with small children still have to go for fast food if they want to eat out.

Quite true that there is a price war going on, and that this has had a substantial effect. It is my understanding that the price war was caused by declining sales at existing franchises. Eating at McD used to be a treat for the kids (age 5, 7), which my wife and I put up with. Now even the kids are tired of it, so we go elsewhere.

	04-03-2003 20:25									#40
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quote: Originally posted by Q Cubed white castle is worse than jack in the box. and the name in-and-out burger really isn't... well... appealing.

In-n-out rocks. Even if the name is a little weird. (It refers to them all being drive throughs, which was unique when the chain was founded.)

	04-03-2003 20:54									#41
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Arrian :
"Cultural imperialism" is a standard word here to describe the agressive instillation of American culture in France. IMHO, it is a justified word :
The US don't put a gun on our head to go to McDonald's or to go see "Independance Day". However, an agressive marketing, cohesive with the general idea vehiculated by American products that America is generally cool, is an extremely efficient propaganda, which easily manipulates youngsters.
When you're a kid, you get easily influenced by all the flag waving you can see at the television or in movies, and you get to love America, simply because trustworthy TV tells you to. You might be surprised, but when watching TV in France, you'll see American flags more often than French flags (news excepted).
Sure, kids do grow old, and understand at some point America isn't that great, and some even get to despise America disproportionately. However, they remain instilled with Coke, McDonald's etc. as part of their way of life.
It is not physical violence that promotes American cultrual imperialism, it is symbolical violence. Not bloody, but as agressive and more efficient in this case.


Sir Ralph :
At first, I wanted to write "Ah, and I became aware of Antiamericanism at age 9-11" I realized very soon people would dislike it


Roland :
Absolutely. I was already old-fashioned when I was a kid


Adam Smith :
Cultural Imperialism is an unimportant issue to most. However, when people get to talk about it, there is a diffuse willingness to defend our culture. The only attacks that I heard of against the Toubon laws about the use of language came from radio staions (and their listeners) which couldn't air as much English speaking music as before. Now, the Toubon laws are considered a success, and I haven't heard any opposition to them in a long time.

About agricultrue : there are 2 kinds of agriculture in France : intensive agriculture in the form of openfields in the great plains, and small exploitations which get subsidized. The former is extremely cost efficient, the latter isn't. However, the latter maintains much of the territory in shape, and keeps an agricultural tradition alive. Purely economic factors would go against subsidies, but social and historical factors speak in their favor.

	04-03-2003 21:01									#42
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With any respect, would you label the fact that most of the "better" European societies (aristocrates etc.), prefered to speak French in the 17th/18th century as cutural imperialism?

	04-03-2003 21:03									#43
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Yea, even the arch-prussian king Frederick II used to talk in French. Damn cheese eating cultural imperialists!

	04-03-2003 21:04									#44
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Europeans worry about cultural imperialim, yet as we sit here today, more and more Americans watch the scourge of "Reality Television", a scourge brought to us from..Europe!

How could you do that to us Spiff? (well, not France really, but the UK, and the Scandinavians) To unleash such a savage and destructive cultural force on poor hapless Americans?

"American Culture" , besides the few trully American forms like Country, Bluegrass,Jazz, Rap, Hip-Hop and Rock (mainly provided by our minority populations and the poorer parts of the coutry) is mainly a new way of packaging and selling stuff, wich we ususlly got from elsewhere anyway (those damn Germans from hamburg and their Hamburger steaks..)

	04-03-2003 21:06									#45
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BeBro :
Yes, of course. However, it was much milder, because it didn't affect the popular classes. But France had a strategy to promote its culture (which started under Louis XIV who outstandingly supported French arts, French education and French language), and French culture became hip in a nobility kind of way, because of its cultural agression.

Edit : GePap :
The Dutch invented Reality TV with "Big Brother". Who else could invent something that perverted ?

	04-03-2003 21:09									#46
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Spiffor,

You are, as many others, calling American cultural imperialism what is mainly business imperialism, and any business in the end is always imperialist. For me, MacDo has few connexions with culture, no more than Coca-cola; they have a small influence on the way of life, which is a small part of the culture. But there is an American culture which is not imperialist and which is going along perfectly well with ours: Hubble is a monumental cultural achievement, and the American literature, or the Jazz, to mention only what I appreciate most, are top players in the cultural field.

Interestingly, you were answered by an American member who chose the name of a Greek writer in the specific purpose to write in our virtual world. This is really cultural imperialism!
It is possible that in 2000 years, three young guys choose to be named Hubble, Asimov and Ellington; then only we will know that the American culture was really imperialist.

	04-03-2003 21:10									#47
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The only interesting fact about American culture is, that half of the Europeans feel confident, that it doesn't exist, and the other half feels overwhelmed by it.

	04-03-2003 21:11									#48
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But I doubt you can it call an "aggression" (neither the US or the French thing) if those people actually want use elements of other cultures (language, food, whatever). I like Pizza - is that an result of Italian cultural aggression or rather of cultural interferences whcih are normal and - IMO - good?

If you don´t like fast food - fine, I do not like it either (I think it is an insult ), but we can´t simply conclude that all others are brainwashed by evil cultural invasions....

	04-03-2003 21:11									#49
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quote: it is symbolical violence. Not bloody, but as agressive and more efficient in this case.

"Symbolic violence" ?

Complete bullshit. Since you clearly believe it, and I clearly not only think you're wrong, but perhaps slightly off your rocker, I don't think debating this is the best idea. I'll leave it at that.

-Arrian

	04-03-2003 21:13									#50
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And, while you are at it, stop using American inventions such as the telephone, TV, computer, internet, plane, electric lights.

You have to be consistent with your anti-Americanism.

	04-03-2003 21:27									#51
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quote: Originally posted by Ned And, while you are at it, stop using American inventions such as the telephone, TV, computer, internet, plane, electric lights. You have to be consistent with your anti-Americanism.

I'm sure, many of us would consider this sacrifice, if this would make you stop using missiles, jet fighters and radioactivity.

	04-03-2003 21:28									#52
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor "Cultural imperialism" is a standard word here to describe the agressive instillation of American culture in France. IMHO, it is a justified word : The US don't put a gun on our head to go to McDonald's or to go see "Independance Day". However, an agressive marketing, cohesive with the general idea vehiculated by American products that America is generally cool, is an extremely efficient propaganda, which easily manipulates youngsters.

Most of America's culture is European in origin. That both sides of the atlantic influence each other has nothing to do with imperialism, unless you add Pizza and Mercedes imperialism to your book.

Take Hollywood - the stories are designed in the old european formats, and the implementation of movies like independence day or pearl harbour.. harbor, rather... looks like Leni Riefenstahl meets the Teletubbies.

And the only specific american thing about fast food is the labelling/branding, organising it into chains/franchises.

Cultural imperialism, my ass...

	04-03-2003 21:28									#53
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@ Sir Ralph. Well said.

-Arrian

	04-03-2003 21:30									#54
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Davout :
I agree with you on the part of American culture which goes along with ours (Jazz, literature and such). Their presence in our culture isn't overwhelming nor threatening in any ways, and as such do enrich our culture.
The American "culture", in the meaning of everyday cultrue (way of life) is very different. It is overwhelming. The latest example is the lame attempt to adapt Halloween in France, which resulted in the degenaration of this fun party (in the US) into a pathetic consumerist rage by us. Sadly, Halloween offsets completely the Toussaint.


BeBro :
The big difference between cultural imperialism and acculturation is the overwhelmingness of the culture. I'm living in Stuttgart this year, where Gehwegs are called 'trottoirs", where wallets are called "portemonnaie" etc. These are the remains of a cultural imperialism, where the nobility dismissed Swabian culture as inferior and flocked to the "superior" French culture.
Also, Cultural imperialism is linked to the political attempt to impose one's culture to other communities. Maybe you don't know the agreement with Marshal's Plan included to lift ratios against American movies ? Do you remember how hard the struggle was during the latest GATT negociations between French and American government about the "cultural exception" ?


Arrian :
I admit we disagree on this, and I understand your decision not to debate this with me (it is probably the topic I'm the most stubborn about ).
However, FYI, you might be interested by the concept of "symbolic violence". It is an interesting sociological concept about the peer pressure and its efficiency into coercing people's behaviour, without blood. The author is Pierre Bourdieu, I'm sure you'd find this notion interesting.

	04-03-2003 21:35									#55
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quote: Originally posted by Ned And, while you are at it, stop using American inventions such as the telephone, TV, computer, internet, plane, electric lights. You have to be consistent with your anti-Americanism.

As I said, I'm boycotting products I deem to carry cultural imperialism. Edit : and I fail to boycott completely hollywood crap, sad

	04-03-2003 21:38									#56
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No, actually, I'm not interested in the concept of "symbolic violence."

It strikes me as yet another thing made up by sociologists for people to whine about.

You don't like America, Spiff. Thus, all things American are not only bad in some way, but also somehow deliberately coodinated for some nefarious purpose. It's a twisted worldview that upsets me. THAT's why I choose not to debate you. Not because you might be stubborn about it - because I might lose it and say things I shouldn't.

-Arrian

	04-03-2003 21:41									#57
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yes to the boycotting of American products as a means of pressure to change their policies


Hit'em where it hurts

(I still buy coca cola though )

	04-03-2003 21:44									#58
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quote: Originally posted by Ned And, while you are at it, stop using American inventions such as the telephone, TV, computer, internet, plane, electric lights. You have to be consistent with your anti-Americanism.

But then Ned, we would have to stop using cars..... also automatic rifles, tanks, hell, guns in general.

What would the American south be without trucks with gun racks? Oh the Humanity.

On Cultural Imperialism: as I said, I don't see the US having much on an indpendent culture outside of music, where American cultural heritage is strong. How many American movies are directed by Europeans? What makes them American is the money involved and production values (tied with how much money is involved). The quintesential American movie form, the western, is almost dead (and one of the few jump starts it got in the last 30 years was from Westerns made in Italy..), while European movie make bigger and bigger inroads into the US market: think why a Spanish director is nominated for best Director for making a Spanish movie. I think Latin America is an example of how far cultural imperialism can go, and can't. You find US movies and music everywhere, and most TV shows are US shows sindicated, yet the most popular shows are Novelas, made in Latin Amercia (mexico usually), and everyone maintains their way of living (more sedated), eating, and partying.

	04-03-2003 21:47									#59
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Spiffor : your translation actually makes the original seem better. The french version sounds like it was written by a - not that bright - 13 year old.
This reads like a french version of a bad Boddington's troll.

	04-03-2003 21:47									#60
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quote: Originally posted by Arrian No, actually, I'm not interested in the concept of "symbolic violence." It strikes me as yet another thing made up by sociologists for people to whine about.

It is sad you dismiss something interesting with these kind of arguments. Wile the concept of symbolic vioelnce is not perfect, it adds to the understanding of society, and to understanding of non-physically-violent pressure. And it rather applies to society as a whole rather than politics, so its intend is not to whine about anything, its intend is to describe a social phenomenon.

quote: You don't like America, Spiff. Thus, all things American are not only bad in some way, but also somehow deliberately coodinated for some nefarious purpose. It's a twisted worldview that upsets me.

I agree this worldview is twisted, heck it's something I got at elementary school