05-03-2003 01:53									#121
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quote: Originally posted by paiktis22 Highly unlikely that english will become everyone's first language.

Actually due to Telecommunications , English may have a
chance to become the first world language, especially with it being the language of media and science (latin is truly a dead language since 1970) There will always be other languages people will use however to separate themselves into tribes. (Gaelic still exists)

	05-03-2003 02:33									#122
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Ozz... considering that the number of people that don't speak English is more than twice the number that do... Good call

	05-03-2003 02:33									#123
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Forget English and French... Let's push Esperanta/o? as the language to end all contriversy. Let Babel Fall!

Seeing as I know very few French I can't say weather I hate them or not, but my first impressions have not been that good.

I still am not convinced that language has anything to culture.

	05-03-2003 04:09									#124
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Jes! Oni tago, Esperanto regados mondo.

	05-03-2003 04:13									#125
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Que? Is that French?

Are there any French computer companies?

	05-03-2003 04:45									#126
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quote: BeBro : The big difference between cultural imperialism and acculturation is the overwhelmingness of the culture. I'm living in Stuttgart this year, where Gehwegs are called 'trottoirs", where wallets are called "portemonnaie" etc. These are the remains of a cultural imperialism, where the nobility dismissed Swabian culture as inferior and flocked to the "superior" French culture.

From what I know of Swabia, this was the best the nobility could do...

Seriously, I donīt think this is all so easy, here comes the nobility, hey, letīs become more French, and thatīs it - it doesnīt work that way. And so it is not as easy to implement a master plan for cultural domination (which you seem to imply for the US).

People will use elements of foreign cultures over the long run only if they think they benefit from them.

quote: Also, Cultural imperialism is linked to the political attempt to impose one's culture to other communities. Maybe you don't know the agreement with Marshal's Plan included to lift ratios against American movies ? Do you remember how hard the struggle was during the latest GATT negociations between French and American government about the "cultural exception" ?

But one could easily say that this was primarily driven economically, not culturally. The entire "impose US culture" on others is a claim you still have to prove. What is the goal of this, if it is true? Can you really say McDonalds cares about culture, or do they only care about selling their stuff everwhere to get money everywhere?

Ok, you can argue that both is the case, and that US companies use cultural domination as means to reach higher profits (a la "if they think US stuff is cool theyīll buy more burgers). I wouldnīt disagree completely here, maybe some try such ways, however, as posted above, it isnīt as simple. For example, if the US cultural invasion is so overwhelming, why is there no deeper impact on peopleīs political beliefs in Europe despite lots of US movies that always show the US military guys on the right way (given the fact that in the current Iraq question most Euros seem to oppose the US position)? And if the cultural domination fails to reach such a goal - why should it be much more successful in other fields (when most of these fields have to do with the way people think about certain issues)?

	05-03-2003 04:54									#127
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Estas ne Franca, estas Esperanto. Infogrames estas komputero kompanon Franca, ne?

	05-03-2003 13:28									#128
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quote: Originally posted by Sir Ralph You mean "desparately wanting to be different", right?

We are different, so much is sure. Problem is, that only says what we are not.

I guess it's quite similar to the Canadians. A good part of their national identity seems to come from not being american, a good part of ours from not being german.

Or it's just something typical kakanian - we just agree to be a nation, and as long as nobody asks about the details, it's no problem...

	05-03-2003 22:30									#129
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Part of borrowing words has to do with your own language not having a way to express the notion correctly: in a sense, borrowing words from another language gives you access to dieas your language is missing.

I don't think everyone knowing English is a bad thing, as long as English does not become primary: and as moe people learn Ebglish, the fact is that making new words will no longer be the act of native English speakers: the more international a toungue, the more international it will become, even for the native speakers.

And of course, monolinguals will still be at a disadvantage comapred to multilingualists.

	05-03-2003 22:38									#130
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quote: Originally posted by Ozz Actually due to Telecommunications , English may have a chance to become the first world language, especially with it being the language of media and science (latin is truly a dead language since 1970) There will always be other languages people will use however to separate themselves into tribes. (Gaelic still exists)

Telecommunciations have a minimal effect compared to society.

Also how are american films being translated (with voices) into French going to "kill "anyone's language assuming (which isn't correct either) that watching a film in english is going to kill it in the first place?

As said highly unlikely.
Hopefully they'll become second language for some people. To others french will etc.
Generally it's good to know a second language.

	05-03-2003 22:45									#131
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quote: Originally posted by Sava Ozz... considering that the number of people that don't speak English is more than twice the number that do... Good call

Actually your statics suck, more like 20:1 Saliva.

English is the language used by business and science
worldwide (ie linga franca )) that has spin offs like this forum's non-english as a first language posters.

Bonehead

	05-03-2003 22:45									#132
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quote: Originally posted by DuncanK Do you have an argument to support this or is this just a guess?

Linguistic studies have already concluded which languages are in danger of extinction and which are not.

They also do not speak about english becoming the first language of anyone not native english except some... exceptions.

	05-03-2003 22:53									#133
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quote: Originally posted by paiktis22 Telecommunciations have a minimal effect compared to society.

Really, hasn't your english improved by access to this
Telecommuncations medium? I would hazard a guess
that more people as a percentage are using english
as a linga univeralus than ever used French, Latin or
Greek in paper letters in the past

Nothing to do with Hollywood or Bollywood. Science and
business drive English.

	05-03-2003 22:53									#134
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quote: Originally posted by paiktis22 Linguistic studies have already concluded which languages are in danger of extinction and which are not. They also do not speak about english becoming the first language of anyone not native english except some... exceptions.

And English is in danger of extinction? What language is going to replace English as the lingua franca, and why?

	05-03-2003 22:55									#135
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The thing about primary language is that it is intrically interwoven whith each given society.
For example some words evenif accurately translated into abnother language will have a slightly different meaning which will be defined by the societal codes of each different linguistic group.

That's the beauty of it.
Also in some languages there are words that in others do not exist.

Another matter is this: say me whom I consider as having a pretty good handle of the english language, I still feel limits to my expression of about 60% or 70%. This means I can use english and express only about 30% of what I want the way that I want it.
Whereas in Greek that percentage is hugely higher.

Generally different langauges are cool and Greek being the oldest continiously spoken language in Europe and the richest as well, rocks

	05-03-2003 22:59									#136
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quote: Originally posted by paiktis22 Linguistic studies have already concluded which languages are in danger of extinction and which are not.

No language dies while somebody cares, Gaelic for
example. Its not that english becomes a "first" language
but a common tongue between peoples. Just like it
allows us to have this thread. I would assume english
is not your first language.

	05-03-2003 23:03									#137
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quote: Originally posted by paiktis22 Another matter is this: say me whom I consider as having a pretty good handle of the english language, I still feel limits to my expression of about 60% or 70%. This means I can use english and express only about 30% of what I want the way that I want it. Whereas in Greek that percentage is hugely higher. Generally different langauges are cool and Greek being the oldest continiously spoken language in Europe and the richest as well, rocks

I see what you are saying. I think it's harder to express yourself with English even if you are proficient in using it. Are there more words in Greek to express yourself, or are you just able to express yourself in Greek better because it is your primary language?

	05-03-2003 23:10									#138
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quote: Originally posted by DuncanK I see what you are saying. I think it's harder to express yourself with English even if you are proficient in using it. Are there more words in Greek to express yourself, or are you just able to express yourself in Greek better because it is your primary language?

Both I think. In Greek I can think (more often than not) the exact word to describe one though or one emotion that I want to express whereas in english most of the time I have to use an approximate word or more than one words.

That can be beacuse I don't know the word in english, it doesn't exist or the specific meaning/specific feeling associated with it doesn't exist in the english speaking world. (as some might not exist in the two Greek speaking countries and Greek minorities in other countries). That's where the intricate relation between language and societal history/common experiences/specific societal codes enter into play.

That is the same with everyone talking in a foreign language which is his second I think. There are necessairily limits in expression.

	05-03-2003 23:47									#139
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quote: Originally posted by paiktis22 Both I think. In Greek I can think (more often than not) the exact word to describe one though or one emotion that I want to express whereas in english most of the time I have to use an approximate word or more than one words.

You can use "foreign" words in english, that is it's
main strenght, alot of english isn't english at all ,but latin, french, and NA Indian.

	05-03-2003 23:52									#140
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About 80% of verbs in English derive from Greek through Latin. That presents some "easyness" to me (although some are altered almost beyond recognision) especially in what regards medical, philosophical and in general scentific terminologies.

IMHO English as a language is quite precise but lacks somewhat in nuances.
Of course there's no language which is superior to others (yes not even Greek ) since each language serves the societal needs of each linguistic group. So they're all equal according to most linguisists.

Last edited by Bereta_Eder on 05-03-2003 at 23:57