04-03-2003 22:57									#91
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor TMM : No other country or culture has the same amount of cultural agressiveness than yours right now, which explains why there isn't protection to American culture in the US. However, some people in the south start feeling overwhelmed by Mexicans and by the Spanish language. It is possible the American society remained as multicultural as before, but it is also reasonable to expect these people will make laws to protect their culture they feel threatened by the Mexican "invasion". The Spanization of southern US is what strikes me as the most similar example you have of a cultural invasion, even thiough it remains quite different. You can understand people and laws can become defensive in such circumstances.

Good point Spiffor. I don't think that Americans are afraid of Mexican culture though. I think for the most part we embrace it. We do have an interest in Mexican immigrants becoming Americanized though. If they don't they will feel more like Mexicans than Americans. It's hard for us to see why French people feel the same about the English language. Even if English became more dominant than French in France they would be no danger of your people feeling more like Americans than French. I think the difference that I see is the immigration. If there were a bunch of Americans immigrating to France I could see the justification for your fears.

	04-03-2003 23:00									#92
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quote: Originally posted by HershOstropoler For us the agricultural landscape is a big issue for tourism, and subsidies get moved more into that direction.

That would seem to be more a land use issue than an agricultural one. We have land use controls coming in the Rockies for sprawl / tourist / pollution reasons.

quote: The latest US subsidies package is more oriented towards benefitting large producers and exporters, is it not....

I am not fully up on the latest, but if the goal is to "save" family farms, then only the marginal farms need the help. If the subsidy applies to all farms, the other producers will earn additional rents courtesy of their local congressman. I dont see why we should subsidize either one.

	04-03-2003 23:00									#93
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quote: It benefits all farmers, sure, but if it subsidises simple quantity, the bigger ones gain more.

How is that? Subsides seem to benefit all levels of farmers. The main advantage to corprate farming is the transportation issues. Many farms in my area have gone out of buisness or have been sold off to corporations because the small farms lost there means of transportation, and the corporations that use to buy from them decided to put a choke hold on the small guy. It didn't have anything to do with subsides.

	04-03-2003 23:01									#94
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quote: Originally posted by HershOstropoler It benefits all farmers, sure, but if it subsidises simple quantity, the bigger ones gain more.

Yeah, I think so. The size of farms depends on the product though. Some products encourage small farms and some products encourage large farms.

	04-03-2003 23:03									#95
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quote: Originally posted by OneFootInTheGrave hey but these were all made by immigrants from europe and other places so please don't be so anti-european and that mcdonald guy sounds Scottish too... don't be anti-Scotish or the Scots will have you for dinner

I'm just waiting for agents of the stealth empire to launch a retaliatory strike for the misinformation on the origin of the telephone...

	04-03-2003 23:08									#96
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Japher:

Where are you located? Transportation for small farmers was subsidized for many years. For example, there were legal requirements that railroads serve all grain elevators, no matter how small, at regulated rates. The most notorious example was Canada's Crow's Nest Pass Agreement which froze grain transportation rates at 1897 levels for almost 100 years. Electricity, telephone, and mail service also have rather extensive subsidies.

	04-03-2003 23:08									#97
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quote: Originally posted by Adam Smith That would seem to be more a land use issue than an agricultural one... I am not fully up on the latest, but if the goal is to "save" family farms, then only the marginal farms need the help. If the subsidy applies to all farms, the other producers will earn additional rents courtesy of their local congressman. I dont see why we should subsidize either one.

Ad 1. Not really. If agricultural use in the higher region of the alps ends, it will go back to forest, which is a much more dramatic change here after 2000+ years of use, than in the Rockies. Affects both scenery and use.

Ad 2. The family farm is touted for the propaganda, the money goes to the powerful interests.

	04-03-2003 23:12									#98
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As a tourist I would rather see trees than overweight Austrians in lederhosen.

	04-03-2003 23:13									#99
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--"I only boycott cultural products that I feel overwhelming / threatening. "

Is it just me, or does anyone else think that boycotting only the really sucessful products seems rather counter-productive?

Wraith
"A stupid man's report of what a clever man says is never accurate because he unconsciously translates what he hears into something he can understand."
-- Bertrand Russell

	04-03-2003 23:15									#100
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quote: Originally posted by Adam Smith As a tourist I would rather see trees than overweight Austrians in lederhosen.

I'd love to replace tourists with trees, but trees spend less money on average...

	04-03-2003 23:16									#101
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Not if you give the trees something to buy .

	04-03-2003 23:18									#102
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I am currently living in San Jose, CA

I grew up in Fresno, CA and went to school in Davis.

So, I guess you can say that I pretty heavy with Ag.

My father in law owns a small ranch were he currently produces Raisins. Most of her side of the family are either farmers or truck drivers.

A few years ago Tri-Valley trucking went out of buisness. The next year fruit/veggie sales plummeted, because Tri-Valley used to buy a lot of all fruits and vegatbles produced in Cali. Since the farmers had very few ways to get their produce to the vendors, and the vendors didn't have such a large fleet as these guys did, the small man got shucked. Companies like Adams, and Orange Trucking have since attempted to pick up the slack, but so has the Cooporations. The small farmer is being suffocated.

Already my father in laws brother was force to sell his 100 acres, his neighbor sold his 250, and my father in law, sitting with a measily 40 acres has lost money the past 2 years in a row, because no one is buying. The corps now have their own land, their own trucks, and their own packagers.

	04-03-2003 23:21									#103
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Corporations or Cooperations?

	04-03-2003 23:22									#104
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About the Mexican "invasion", I am not fully convinced by the validity of the comparison, but I used it because it is what sounds mostly like a "cultural" invasion in the US that I know of.

quote: Even if English became more dominant than French in France they would be no danger of your people feeling more like Americans than French

That is the problem. The French construction of identity had much to do with French culture and French language : France is originally a bunch of various ethnical groups tied together by the king's conquests, and then tied together by the attempt to standardize their cultures to fit Parisian standards. Paris has done a harsh cultural imperialism within France, and it became extremely efficient through the education system from 1880 on.
The French language and culture are used as elements defining what makes you French rather than something else. A definite weakening of the French language because of English (there is a difference between enriching our language with "some" foreign words, and having most of our language replaced, as per the theory quoted above) would be bad for the French sense of community.

It would be also a loss, because French is a beautiful language.

	04-03-2003 23:23									#105
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Corporations... sorry.

	04-03-2003 23:32									#106
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I was asking because small farmers outside cooperations find it ever more difficult here to survive...

Spiff: "The French language and culture are used as elements defining what makes you French rather than something else."

That's even more true for Germany, as it lacks symbols like the revolution, la Republique etc. Still there is less of a fuss about it. I'd also use Austria as a comparison, but I actually have no idea what makes us a nation, apart from being different from the germans....

"It would be also a loss, because French is a beautiful language."

I'd prefer Occitan, that you bastards almost eradicated...

	04-03-2003 23:36									#107
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quote: Originally posted by HershOstropoler Spiff: "The French language and culture are used as elements defining what makes you French rather than something else." That's even more true for Germany, as it lacks symbols like the revolution, la Republique etc. Still there is less of a fuss about it. I'd also use Austria as a comparison, but I actually have no idea what makes us a nation, apart from being different from the germans....

I have yet to understand on what lies the Austrian identityt. Maybe the old grandeur of the Habsbourgs ? But for Germany, the link is clear : common ethnicity. All the German nationalism (i.e construction of national identity) comes from that, as shown by the quasi absence of ground-right until very recently.

quote: "It would be also a loss, because French is a beautiful language." I'd prefer Occitan, that you bastards almost eradicated...

While our cultural standardization was highly utilitaristic, as Az would say , it was terrible for local languages. We are slowly reopening non-French speaking schools in areas having a local language, but it's leading to the other extreme of children not mastering French enough.

	04-03-2003 23:51									#108
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor A definite weakening of the French language because of English (there is a difference between enriching our language with "some" foreign words, and having most of our language replaced, as per the theory quoted above) would be bad for the French sense of community. It would be also a loss, because French is a beautiful language.

French is beautiful. The dominance of the English language has nothing to do with it's superiority over French. It he has to do with geography and economics. Too bad, but nothing can change that. I think eventually English will be everyone's first language. That can't be stopped.

	04-03-2003 23:54									#109
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Highly unlikely that english will become everyone's first language.

The lingua franca ( )* of the 18th century was french before it was latin before it was greek.
and in some centuries maybe it will be another language than english.

they come and go.


*(lingua franca means the language that we use to communicate when not talking with our own language group, and it also means french language)

	05-03-2003 00:02									#110
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Actually I used to hope english would be or was in its way to be the second language of the EU, that everyone will speak it as their second language and all europeans would be able to communicate even marginally in it but that hope was vanished after travelling throughout Europe and in particular in countries like Italy where few spoke english (or any other foreign language).

Interpretors will always be needed, the everyday people are not the people of universities or multinationals that most of them usually have some grasp of english.

	05-03-2003 00:19									#111
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It seems to me that anti-French bigotry is becoming part of American identity. Not that that's backed up by research or anything.

I can only hope that the French continue their mature attitude to the merde being thrown their way by the Americans.

	05-03-2003 00:20									#112
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quote: Originally posted by HershOstropoler I'd also use Austria as a comparison, but I actually have no idea what makes us a nation, apart from being different from the germans....

You mean "desparately wanting to be different", right?

	05-03-2003 00:22									#113
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Spiffor: "Utilitaristic" Cool new word.

Paiktis: so do europeans want to become a superstate, or not?

	05-03-2003 00:22									#114
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Brilliant analysis, Sandman. The depth of your knowledge regarding American identity staggers me.

-Arrian

	05-03-2003 00:24									#115
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I think that "anti-frenchism" (sic) also comes a bit from a "transfusion" of British antifrenchism to the US. (sicne UK and US are closer than US and other european countries = language etc)

But it really seems to be taking some more serious proportions in the US whereas in the UK it is more of a joke I'd think.

	05-03-2003 00:27									#116
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Azazel, it depends on who you ask.

	05-03-2003 00:27									#117
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It's still a joke here, Paiktis. Nobody actually hates the French. The people who are getting "serious" about it shouldn't be taken seriously - they're morons.

-Arrian

	05-03-2003 00:29									#118
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Glad to hear it. I hereby retract my comment.

	05-03-2003 00:31									#119
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paiktis: I am talking about the majority throughout europe. What's its' stance?

	05-03-2003 00:52									#120
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quote: Originally posted by paiktis22 Highly unlikely that english will become everyone's first language. The lingua franca ( )* of the 18th century was french before it was latin before it was greek. and in some centuries maybe it will be another language than english. they come and go. *(lingua franca means the language that we use to communicate when not talking with our own language group, and it also means french language)

Do you have an argument to support this or is this just a guess?