05-03-2003 18:01									#1
	Bus exploded in Haifa Tired of ads?

8 dead, dozens wounded... I'll get you a report soon enough - or maybe leave the job to my fellows.
Let me just add a thought in the memory of the poor people who died - and those who might yet not die - because of this idiotic, mindless conflict.
My brother wanted to dress as a soldier in Purim (costume festival bla bla bla); today I had the opportunity to show him what soldiers and war bring about. Death and misery. I can only hope that none of my friends were aboard that bus. I ride it daily to and from school - today I was sick so I stayed at home.

~Mark

EDIT: 11 Dead.

Last edited by Firelad on 05-03-2003 at 18:16

	05-03-2003 18:16									#2
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my god...when will it all end?

	05-03-2003 18:16									#3
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14:16 local time (12:16 GMT) a loaded bus exploded in a
central haifa street.

EDITED:

Siro reporting to be OK.
Yoav was seen ok in 14:14
Shiber was seen ok in 14:14
Eli is safe in Ashdod
Azazel has posted and is fine.
Taurus is fine.

1 person i know is possibly missing, though i heard recently that he was seen alive after the terract. but no confirmation yet.

/END EDITED


I fear for the life of my school mates - the bus that exploded, line 37 is a line which many of my friends from school take home.

14:16 is a time when the buses along the Moria street are loaded, especially with school children returning home.
This morning there were 50 alerts of terracts in plan or in progress.

Update: The police have just raised the national wide
security alert. Apparently there could be more terracts in store for
today.

Update:
EDITED
50+ injured
15 dead

Last edited by Sirotnikov on 05-03-2003 at 23:04

	05-03-2003 18:18									#4
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quote: today I had the opportunity to show him what soldiers and war bring about. Death and misery.

Soldiers don't target buses loaded with schoolchildren

	05-03-2003 18:19									#5
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Yet another Palestinian war crime. Palestinians must have committed more war crimes then any other people in the history of the world. If I lived in Israel I would buy a car and never ride mass transit. As long as the conflict continues or Arabs are allowed on buses then Arabs will continue to put bombs on buses.

Admiteably not allowing Arabs to ride buses would be fascist but I am at wits end. How else can you insure Arab militants don't carry bombs on to buses? I wish there was another answer but for the life of me I cannot think of one.

	05-03-2003 18:20									#6
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quote: Originally posted by Sirotnikov quote: today I had the opportunity to show him what soldiers and war bring about. Death and misery. Soldiers don't target buses loaded with schoolchildren

No, they just fire from tanks / gunships at them...

When will it end? When enough people stop being bloodthirsty and stupid...

	05-03-2003 18:21									#7
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Interesting avatar Siro.

What is the source for 11 dead? I can see only 10.

(relying on major news sites only, cant turn on TV and all breaking news forums are down).

	05-03-2003 18:22									#8
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quote: No, they just fire from tanks / gunships at them...

Oh come ****ing on with your pathetic equations of morality.

You know very ****ing well that soldiers aim at the same people that make these kind of terracts.

Equating law enforcers who accidentally hit innocent people, and war criminals who seek out and slaughter them is both absurd and insulting.

	05-03-2003 18:24									#9
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quote: What is the source for 11 dead? I can see only 10.

channel 10. local radio etc.

god dammit. half of my school finished classes around 13:35 which means they could have easily be on that bus.

	05-03-2003 18:24									#10
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quote: Soldiers don't target buses loaded with schoolchildren

Unfortunately you cannot be sure about this.

These things suck big time

Soon there will be a retaliation to this retaliation of the retaliation that was due to the retaliation of the retaliation... It all seems like a broken record.

	05-03-2003 18:26									#11
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin Yet another Palestinian war crime. Palestinians must have committed more war crimes then any other people in the history of the world.

I wouldn't swear on a precise count, but I'd say that both sides are roughly on the same place, with a heavy "advantage" on number of casualities caused on the Israeli side...

quote: Admiteably not allowing Arabs to ride buses would be fascist but I am at wits end. How else can you insure Arab militants don't carry bombs on to buses? I wish there was another answer but for the life of me I cannot think of one.

Then they'd blow up restaraunts... And there would be more people that would want to blow up... Then I'd go into an open rebellion... But hey who cares about human rights nowadays... Let's just be honest with ourselves and open the ol' gas chambers and crematoriums....

	05-03-2003 18:27									#12
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oerdin, dont give arabs reasons to put bombs on busses

	05-03-2003 18:28									#13
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quote: Originally posted by Sirotnikov You know very ****ing well that soldiers aim at the same people that make these kind of terracts.

Well, actually I don't know this to be the exclusive truth and neither do I believe it to be.

	05-03-2003 18:30									#14
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The IDF doesn't support the killing of innocent people and it prosocutes anyone who commits such acts. The Palestinians almost universaly support acts of terror designed to kill women and children instead of military targets.

Yasser Arafat is complicit in these attacks. He knows Palestinian groups are planning them but does nothing to stop them plus he provides them with moral cover by constinently speaking out on their behalf and providing them with moral cover. The Palestinian cause will never be seen as legitiment by the international community until the Palestinian leadership ceases to support terrorism.

Unfortunately, people like Arafat have been involved with terrorism for 40 years and they are not going to give up their "pet project" now. Arafat is a war criminal who should be executed for his crimes.

	05-03-2003 18:31									#15
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hmmm... Oerdin:

A Palestinian kills Israeli children = war crime
An Israeli kills Palestinian children = ?

	05-03-2003 18:33									#16
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32 people evacuated to hospitals via ambulances (more people are often brought by private vehicales.

11 Israelis are dead.

1 Terrorist (apparently) is dead.

	05-03-2003 18:34									#17
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so oerdin, you cut the head of the hydra off and what are you left with? angrier palestinians without a homeland and no political clout. possible outcome from this?

	05-03-2003 18:35									#18
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin Arafat is a war criminal who should be executed for his crimes.

So are half our government and military brass. Although I'm more in favour of eternity in a small prison cell with a roommate named Spike.

	05-03-2003 18:37									#19
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quote: Unfortunately you cannot be sure about this.

I can be sure about the people I know, and the people they know.
I can be sure that the Israeli media monitors such cases and so does the IDF.
I can be sure since soldiers and civilians are being prosecuted.

Just a week ago, an Israeli woman who lost her brother in a terract, tried to kill several palestinians by driving her car at them, putting 3 in hospital. She is already being prosecuted, and is charged with attempted murders.

quote: Soon there will be a retaliation to this retaliation of the retaliation that was due to the retaliation of the retaliation... It all seems like a broken record.

The only thing Arafat has done as of lately, was a meager attempt to reduce the number of mortars fired from the Gaza strip onto neighbouring Israeli cities, inside Israel proper.

And frankly, the IDF had much more success (actually destroyed several large mrotar factories in Gaza).

	05-03-2003 18:41									#20
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quote: Originally posted by MRT144 oerdin, dont give arabs reasons to put bombs on busses

Yes, but the Arab militant feels that as long as Israel exists then they must work to destroy it. I am fearful that the miltantancy of Arabs will reach a point where the two sides will never be able to live together. Population exchange and permanent separation will become necessary if such an event comes to pass; that will mean ethnic cleansing of the sort not seen since Soviets pushed ethnic Germans out of Prussia and the Sudetenland.

	05-03-2003 18:42									#21
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quote: So are half our government and military brass. Although I'm more in favour of eternity in a small prison cell with a roommate named Spike.

what the heck are your cretarions?
being in uniform?
hoding a gun?
performing urban combat?

the silliest thing is that urban combat has now become a war crime, according to lefties.

when the palestinians will have enough courage to stop hiding among civilians - then we'll leave their cities. and don't bullshit about them having no other way.

by that logic, i also have no way of acting against the palestinian terror except by hurting israeli arabs who consider themselves palestinians. but i don't do that. and i live in a neighbourhood where about 50% of the population are israeli arab citizens, most of whom probably feel palestinian.

	05-03-2003 18:43									#22
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quote: Well, actually I don't know this to be the exclusive truth and neither do I believe it to be.

good.
then instead of acting all gimpy - why don't you draft to the IDF, and go see for yourself.

	05-03-2003 18:45									#23
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quote: Originally posted by Sirotnikov when the palestinians will have enough courage to stop hiding among civilians - then we'll leave their cities. and don't bullshit about them having no other way.

I wish that was true. Problem is, that IOF sometimes fires simply at civilian population, or at suspected militants being just militant enough to ride a car in a civilian neighborhood... You know.

quote: by that logic, i also have no way of acting against the palestinian terror except by hurting israeli arabs who consider themselves palestinians. but i don't do that. and i live in a neighbourhood where about 50% of the population are israeli arab citizens, most of whom probably feel palestinian.

?

	05-03-2003 18:46									#24
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quote: Originally posted by Sirotnikov quote: Well, actually I don't know this to be the exclusive truth and neither do I believe it to be. good. then instead of acting all gimpy - why don't you draft to the IDF, and go see for yourself.

What's gimpy?

And no, I won't enlist to a terrorist organisation. Neither IDF/IOF or Hamas or whatever.

	05-03-2003 18:46									#25
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In any case - firelad - every action (that is planned intrusion, not general policing) taken by the IDF is filmed and archived.


My school for instance, has adopted an IDF unit - paratroopers "crow" unit.

Their representatives for instance, came and talked and showed their actions in the territories, and talked about cases when people step over red lines.

	05-03-2003 18:47									#26
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quote: Originally posted by aaglo hmmm... Oerdin: A Palestinian kills Israeli children = war crime An Israeli kills Palestinian children = ?

Aaglo, as with many matters of the law it is based upon intent. Did they intend to kill innocents or did they accidentally kill innocents? One side clearly intends innocent civilians to die while the other side takes all possible precautions to prevent innocents from being harmed. That is why Palestinians are far more at fault then Israelis.

	05-03-2003 18:52									#27
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quote: I wish that was true. Problem is, that IOF sometimes fires simply at civilian population, or at suspected militants being just militant enough to ride a car in a civilian neighborhood... You know.

no - i don't know.

and please don't compare warning shots, to sniping at civilians.

and also please don't compare an army to a terrorist organization. it doesn't show any smarts. only a failure to understand the difference between police and criminal.

and you infact choose to stay blind - you base your statements on rumors you get from the territories, but then you decide that you won't see the action yourself, but rather rely on second hand sources for the rest of your life.

if you actually go to the IDF and see these things for yourself - then maybe you'll have credence. currently you have none.

and niether do btw, the claims of the "siruvnikim". they again in their idiocy compare sporadic hotheads in the army, to an organized israeli policy to harrass.

	05-03-2003 18:53									#28
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Any news on Azazel and Taurus yet?

	05-03-2003 19:01									#29
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I am ok.

	05-03-2003 19:03									#30
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14 dead.