07-03-2003 21:35									#121
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quote: Originally posted by Ming HEY... Discuss the issues... NOT THE POSTERS! If people want to attack the poster, and not the argument, they will find themselves not being able to post for a while.

Sorry, won't happen again (although getting my first warning ever is kinda exciting). Basically the issues are discussed, the points are clear to almost all posters, apart from certain posters who keep asking the same questions/stating the same points because they are biased a particular way, and as such are never going to get convinced of anything we say, so i was just pointing out the futility of it all. I suppose a [/sarcasm] at the end might have been slightly better.

	07-03-2003 22:22									#122
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quote: Originally posted by paiktis22 I don't have to answer any questions since I'm not in Britain's police state. ?

Isnt this a wonderful tactic = Pattycakes asks all the rhetorical questions he likes - then when someone as part of the argument ask HIM something, he refuses to answer and amkes it appear that the perosn asking him is threatening him with persecution. He did that on a thread with me - i had a question he couldnt answer, and i wouldnt let him get away with ignoring it or changing the subject so he asked if i was going to kill him, "like a Palestinian child"


Great trolliing , pattycakes, Im impressed.

	07-03-2003 22:30									#123
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lord of the mark

And what part of my warning DID YOU NOT UNDERSTAND.

You are one post away from a restriction.

DISCUSS THE ISSUES... NOT THE POSTERS!

	07-03-2003 22:35									#124
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quote: Originally posted by Ming lord of the mark And what part of my warning DID YOU NOT UNDERSTAND. You are one post away from a restriction. DISCUSS THE ISSUES... NOT THE POSTERS!

I posted that before i saw your warning Ming.

OTOH i did not discuss anything about patty as a person - i purely discussed the rhetorical techniques he used in this thread, as in others. Is that verbotten??? Or was it calling him the T word??? (IIRC he called me a troll in the other thread that i mentioned)

Just want some clarification.

	07-03-2003 22:39									#125
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quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark I posted that before i saw your warning Ming.

NO DEFENSE... you are attacking the poster, not the argument. You shouldn't NEED A DAMN WARNING.

quote: OTOH i did not discuss anything about patty as a person - i purely discussed the rhetorical techniques he used in this thread, as in others.

BULLSH*T... you directly attacked the poster, and not the issues.

If you don't understand that, you will probably get restricted with your next post.

	07-03-2003 22:51									#126
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Paiktis, if he was merely doing research, I don't think it would have been a problem. However, possession of terrorist manuals, or whatever he had, while being publicly in favor of terrorism is a problem.

There is a limit to freedom of expression. When your freedom of expression endangers other people, it should be limited. I personally don't think this should be prosecuted, at least not based on what you said in the original post, but I do recognize that the climate in the UK (especially after the slaying of a police officer investigating ricin possession) tends to encourage the authorities to err on the side of security.

The man arrested was a guest in the country where he was arrested. If you're a guest in a country, they have every right to take your actions more seriously than a citizen's, especially if you openly support a terrorist organization that threatens them and their allies.

	07-03-2003 23:13									#127
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If one can't question the motives of a generic poster after that generic poster will not answer questions and merely recycle statements, then there is no point in the topic even being discussed. Best to ignore future threads such as described above. It could go on and on till it hit 500 and no ground would be made. Better to nip said thread early on to remove future chances of infractions. The suggestion was to only discuss the topic, but the topic was dead after the first page of recycled material kept.

In fact at first I thought the thread was a victim of an unusual amount of double posts

	07-03-2003 23:16									#128
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Well... if you can't discuss the issues, and only want to attack the posters, I suggest you find another site to post at, because the personal attacks are going to stop.

And if you think all the issues have already been discussed in this thread, then don't post in it.

	07-03-2003 23:33									#129
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as long as we've won the debate, not posting anymore is fine by me.

Ming> Can you just declare us victorious and close the thread?

	07-03-2003 23:54									#130
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quote: Originally posted by Ming Well... if you can't discuss the issues, and only want to attack the posters, I suggest you find another site to post at, because the personal attacks are going to stop. And if you think all the issues have already been discussed in this thread, then don't post in it.

I'm just trying to fit in

	08-03-2003 01:04									#131
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Ming: Why is this thread still open given that you shut down his first one on the very same topic which was started for the exact same reasons as this one?

	08-03-2003 01:11									#132
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I think he explained that, after discussing the matter at length with Patty... err, Paiktis, he allowed the topic to be brought up again with certain limitations. Translation: Paiktis could be mildly inflamatory, but calling Britain a "Facist State" or somesuch was going too far.

-Arrian

	08-03-2003 01:45									#133
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc Ming: Why is this thread still open given that you shut down his first one on the very same topic which was started for the exact same reasons as this one?

If you had taken the time to look at the thread BEFORE you asked your question, you wouldn't have needed to ask My answer to your question is on the first page...

	12-03-2003 00:02									#134
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

I'm (not so much) dissapointed by our British posters.

Their "law" violates basic values of democracy making Britain a virtual pariah in a democratic Europe.

Opinions are free to be persecuted in Britain by a "law" that would clearly fit in any fascist state, where it would be perfectly "acceptable".

And yet, instead of attacking that "law" that makes Britain probably the only country to allow persecutions of opinion and curtail free speech, they attack me.


A very sad state of affairs for Britain and a cause for alarm for the European Union which will do well to look on the issue, since "kangooroo" courts are not to be allowed inside its dominion.

The kid will be acquited in that farse of a "trial" of the criminilization of opinion since it has the best lawyers Greek money can buy.

This does not absolute the fascistic character of that "law" for Britain.

I'd also like to add that according to criminologists this insult of a "law" is, apart from fundamentaly undemocratic and uncommon in Europe (maybe even in the US) - it isalso basicly racist since it allows the police and the british gov. not only to freely prosecute whose opinions they don't like based on laughable "evidence" but it also discriminates against foreigners.


A very sad state of affairs that came to my attention.

The british political culture is in serious want of a democratic injection. I wonder how long this has been going on.

	12-03-2003 00:16									#135
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Wow, resurrecting your own troll thread, Pattycakes?

It died four days ago. That should tell you something.

-Arrian

	12-03-2003 00:18									#136
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Whatever.

	12-03-2003 00:54									#137
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Great comeback. Go eat a Big Mac, you'll feel better.

	12-03-2003 00:57									#138
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I was expecting this tomorrow, AFTER the court appearance and the "articles" and "evidence" are
exposed.

	12-03-2003 01:21									#139
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The guy was actually arrested for this post, in some message board:

quote: Hello there and congratulations for your site. First of all the 17N is not a terrorist gropup. Terrorism is when you terrorising the masses and the 17N have never done something like that. The greek people never felt threatened from the 17N. The only people who feared the 17N were some ''big people'' who because of the anomalies of the laws, their financial status and their influence among the politicians were able to walk away free and unpunished. The common greek citizen never felt that his life is threatened from the 17N. I am sure that the ones who were feared mostly from the 17N were the REAL AND BIGGEST TERRORISTS OF THIS PLANET-THE AMERICANS.Not the simple american people but the american imperialism and the ones who representing it and support it. If I ever had the chance I would have joined them. I am about to start a PhD about the 17N, the RAF, THE Red Brigades and other revolutionary organisations.The americans and their allies are the real terrorists, not the 17N. Viva the 17N. My congratulations to Yiotopoulos, Koufodinas, Tzortzatos and the rest of the group. ZITO I 17N

Apart from the last part, where he says he supports the armed struggle and 17N (in a rather frivolous fashion), I would say that his statement expresses my feelings as well. In fact, I have posted similar statements in Apolyton a while ago (before the arrestation of the 17N) and them someone accused me of BEING a terrorist. Well, this is the same terror-frenzied mentality, in action!

It feels frightening. because anybody could be in this guy's place. Btw, in Greece, a few hundrend people have openly declared support the actions of 17N. Solidarity with the people accused as members is very widespread. So is enmity towards the state and the way it has handled the case.

I feel that the Brits in this thread are pursuing this with a dose of revanchism, for the planespotter case. Let's hope that this won't be the case with the jury too.

	12-03-2003 01:26									#140
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quote: Originally posted by axi The guy was actually arrested for this post, in some message board:

You and paiktis should go to the UK and protest. All you'll need is a one way ticket cause you may be staying for a while.

	12-03-2003 02:25									#141
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A little digrression. I too remember Axi and Paiktis writing about 17N with admiration if not explicit support for their actions and methods. Don't worry guys I don't think either one of you are terrorists/criminals

But this brings something else to attention. People should remember they are not anonymous on the internet. Everything remains recorded. If tommorow Apolyton server gets struck by lightening (god forbid!) its posts and pages will still remain archived by numerous web search engines (Google..) or archive sites like www.archive.org. It is even more so with newsgroups, now that Google is archiving them. Mailing lists too.

My point, well.. we should be aware that things we say could be used against us by parties we don't imagine possible, like police in case of this guy.

This was brought to my attention because I read about how police fought software piracy. They are equiped and ready to use modern technoloy, so be wary of supporting crime in your posts or something like that.

Or what if one day you get into high politics.. can you imagine your enemies or tabloids pulling out politicaly incorrect posts of yours from obscure parts of the internet. Not completely impossible, and could hurt you bad.

Kidding ourselves that 'we are not important enough' is not a good enough way to be secure

Any sence of security any of us have just because we post under nicknames or in unknown places is - false.



Scheize, This must be the grimmest and most paranoid post I ever made

I had to get it out of my system though. Sorry for the interruption and carry on.

	12-03-2003 02:32									#142
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quote: Btw, in Greece, a few hundrend people have openly declared support the actions of 17N.

Hardly shocking given past Greek support of terrorist groups.

	12-03-2003 14:28									#143
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Between us (so to speak), nobody felt sorry for Mallios and Babalis, the juntist torturers, back in the 70's...

I have to say that I do not support the actions of 17N and I never did. IIRC paiktis is of the same opinion too. But we tend to react when this is used to attack Greece or the left and divert attention away from the real parties that employ terror: the state, the media and the imperialists.

	12-03-2003 23:03									#144
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quote: Originally posted by Sprayber You and paiktis should go to the UK and protest. All you'll need is a one way ticket cause you may be staying for a while.

So Spray you support the British suppression and persecution of the freedom of expression, huh?

I wonder then what you think you're fighting for in Iraq.


BTW thanks for his message Axi, I've benn trying to find it myself.

Vetty don't worry trolling will never become a persecutable offence in Greece though so you can always come to the islands

For Britain OTOH I can not make any promises

	12-03-2003 23:07									#145
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The terrorists have already won in britain.

	12-03-2003 23:20									#146
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quote: Originally posted by paiktis22 So Spray you support the British suppression and persecution of the freedom of expression, huh? I wonder then what you think you're fighting for in Iraq. BTW thanks for his message Axi, I've benn trying to find it myself. Vetty don't worry trolling will never become a persecutable offence in Greece though so you can always come to the islands For Britain OTOH I can not make any promises

Yes I support the oppression of Greeks everywhere. In fact, I oppressed a Greek just today. I was feeling guilty that I had done nothing to oppress anyone and what do you know a Greek turned a corner and I oppressed him. That will have to do until I get to Kuwait where I can oppress all who oppose the great American Empire.


I get so depressed when I can't oppress.

	12-03-2003 23:23									#147
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Right.

Making light of the fascistic act of a prosecution of opinion that goes on today in the not so democratic britain must really amuse you

	12-03-2003 23:24									#148
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And I think that the US/UK will opress decisively around 500.000 women and children. So finally that they'll never get up again.

But this is about a different thread.

	12-03-2003 23:27									#149
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quote: Originally posted by paiktis22 Right. Making light of the fascistic act of a prosecution of opinion that goes on today in the not so democratic britain must really amuse you

What amuses me is your selective attacks. All must be glorious in your paradise of Greece and the EU as opposed to the dark forbidding landscape of America and the UK.

	12-03-2003 23:29									#150
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Hardly. There are many problems.

Supression of basic democratic liberties, fascist laws and rampant police indiscrimination however is not one of them

Not that I feel especially proud or special about my country for that. That is the norm in Europe, apart Britain, and I'd even dare to say it is the norm in the US too.

And I'd imagine everyone would be quite to condemn it. But I underestimated the nationalism of the brits or maybe the fear of their goverment. Watch what you say if you live in britain!