07-04-2003 01:13									#61
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These are the transcripts of the discussion Beta and I had with Togas.

The first quote is me talking with Togas before Beta came, trying to get as much as possible info and not give any.

The second one is the official chat between Togas and Beta.

The third one is the discussion I had with Beta during the official chat.

Me & Togas :

quote: Eli Togas, are you there? Togas here now Eli We received the message from Nuclear. Togas Good. We need to talk to you soon about this. Eli I'm here for a while, and Beta should also show up, I think. Togas Do you need to wait for Beta or can you talk now? Eli I cant promise you anything official, but we can explore options and understand the situation to save some time when Beta comes. Togas excellent. Eli Basically, what exactly do you need to know or understand? Togas We want to make sure that we won't be drawn into war, as we're currently negotiating a MPP. Eli With Lego, correct? Togas and if the war is with a nation that we'd like to see attacked, we'd like to see if we can't help in some way Togas correct Togas to see if we can help in some way Eli Since I cant alone be the judge on whether to tell you our plans or not... Eli We should discuss both possibilities. Togas that's fine. Togas let's talk hyptothetically Togas hypothetically Eli Yes. Option 1 : We dont war at all. Option 2 : We war a civ on Bob. Option 3: We war GS. Eli Where should we start? _ Togas Just to make sure, there's no option to invade Legoland? Eli I cant answer that alone. Eli Being realistic, option 1 is not going to happen. Togas IF there was an option to invade Legoland, I would strongly urge you to tell us so that we don't sign the MPP we're negotiating. Togas We'd rather not get involved in such a war. Togas Option 1 doesn't need discussion. Eli Give me a sec to check our map, I dont remember who is where. Togas Let's start with Option 3, as that's the easiest one Eli Wait. Eli Assuming the war is against a Bob civ, which is not Legoland. What do you think will happen? Togas If it's on our continent, it's complicated... Eli What color is your civ? Light blue? Togas yes Togas Spain. We're the furthest south Togas Glory of War is the black, they're the ones that have Witlitch West Eli Port Isolation now... *grumble* Togas Yellow is Neu Dem Eli To put it bluntly, will you stay out of war if we invade GoW or the Germans? Togas We *might* Togas We'd gain absolutely nothing by fighting for them Eli That's good enough for informal talks. Togas and we'd be very happy to see either of them invaded Eli Option3. Togas however, we signed a pact with them that binds us to help defend our continent from outside invasion. Togas so we'd have to cleverly find a way out, or simply stab one of them in the back. Eli Hmmm. Togas It's an option we'd consider, but we're very reluctant to do so Togas As for Option 3, we'd be happy to see GS get invaded. Eli Give me 5 minutes to get Beta in and update him. Togas good Eli Please join #Pbem

Togas & Beta:

quote: Session Start: Sun Apr 06 22:21:55 2003 Session Ident: #PBEM * Now talking in #PBEM * BetaHound has joined #Pbem * Togas has joined #pbem Togas greetings BetaHound Greetings Togas. BetaHound We are honored. Togas thank you BetaHound How are the fine people of Spain? Eli BEta : I PMed you the discussion between us until you came. Please read it first. BetaHound Excuse me for one moment - dear sirs. * Retrieving #PBEM info... Togas that's fine. * Eli sets mode: +l 3 BetaHound Well - that does cover the range of options doesn't it.? BetaHound Unless we just like having a big army. Togas No one has a big army just because they like to. BetaHound Yes - agreed. They are expensive. BetaHound So - Togas Once Feudalism comes (GS says @8 turns) everyone can make Mid Swordsmen. The equivalent to Immortals BetaHound Ah - yes - a window of opportunity. Togas a shrinking window BetaHound yes - BetaHound You are or are going to sign a NAP with Lego? BetaHound Sorry - bad grammar Togas it's very likely. The only sticking point right now is their WM BetaHound WM? Togas We want to trade WMs as a part of the deal, but they may not do it. BetaHound ah - ok world maps Togas we'd like to know exactly what we're agreeing to protect BetaHound Well - have no fear of us in this regards. Togas that's very good news BetaHound Proceed with your pact and we can still be friends. Togas Good to hear. BetaHound Now - why do you 'pray' that it is GS we are targetting? BetaHound What concern are they to you? Togas As you can imagine, the politics of Bob make a war over here a dilema for us. BetaHound Yes. As we saw. Togas on one hand we'd be happy to see our northern neighbors beaten down, on the other, we've pledged to defend them. Togas so we're in a bind. BetaHound Yes - I see. Togas As for GS, we have no relationship with them. BetaHound But they are a strong team. Economically. Togas Now that they are Republic, they're going to soar ahead of the rest of us BetaHound Hmm - we had thought of that too. But we have been friends with them for awhile now. Togas we fear that they will eventually become too powerful to stop. BetaHound So - which would you prefer we attack - if in fact we do attack someone. Togas Gathering Storm would make us happy. GoW or ND would make us concerned. BetaHound Understood. You mentioned something about support. How would that work. Togas let me go dig up the treaty, hold on... Togas sidenote: We still have a Non-Agg with you until 120 BetaHound Yes - I believe so. Togas Should any civilization that is not native to Bob create or capture settlements on this continent, the undersigned agree to unite, set aside our differences, and to jointly work to remove the foreign nation using any and all means available to us which include: Embargos, Pillaging, and Warfare. BetaHound Hmm - doesn't leave much room for intepretation. Togas however, last time this happened, we told ND & GOW we had a non-agg with your team Togas and that we would not be able to declare war. BetaHound Ah - that complicates it. Togas they didn't protest this. BetaHound But - if it was NeuD and GoW it would be - er - messy. Togas it would indeed BetaHound OK. So - if it was GS - how could you support us? BetaHound As I assume if it was on BOB, your supprt would only take the form of non-interfernce. Togas Initially, all I can think of is financial support. BetaHound Roughly how much? Togas but if we discover a short water path to GS, we could later invade. However, such an invasion would be 20+ turns away BetaHound yes - understood. Togas I'll have to discuss with my people. We'd want to buy something or trade something to you ... perhaps keep you in the loop with tech or, alternatively, not buy anything from GS during the war. BetaHound I have a suggestion - if this were all to transpire. Togas go ahead BetaHound 2 points: BetaHound 1. your last - do not buy anything from GS. In fact - if you have anything to sell, try and do it asap. * Togas nods BetaHound 2. We sell you engineering for 240 gold, in advance. We will not have it for some 20+ turns, as our research rate is set somewhat low - but we will have it. Payment in the form of 120 gold when war starts, 120 10 turns later. BetaHound See it as sort of a war loan - with colateral Togas we may be able to do that, just depends on when the war starts. BetaHound yes - if there is war with GS - it is still not clear exactly when it will be - but if there was - it would not be too long. BetaHound Togas gotcha, let me talk with my people. We have a GPT deal set to expire in 8 turns that would give us additional income. BetaHound Sounds good. We will also need to discuss longer term plans. BetaHound If you know what I mean. Eli Just a small note. Togas I you. Let's talk hypothetically ... if you do attack GS, would you be going for the kill or just to take a few cities? BetaHound It depends - I suspect we would like to cut them down a notch - get some more land - and make peace. On the other hand - if it goes well. Who knows? BetaHound If we did attack GS? BetaHound Togas We'd like to get a WM from you after the war is over, we're trying to figure out just how close GS is to us. BetaHound Yes - that would make sense. Eli A note concerning "if you have anything to sell, try and do it asap" - try not to sell techs that help in the war process. Togas Gotcha. BetaHound Yes - exactly. good point. BetaHound And one other fairly obvious matter... BetaHound Loose lips sink ships. BetaHound And immortals. Togas I will keep this completely confidential BetaHound Vox thanks you. BetaHound When should we talk again? Togas soon, I hope. BetaHound And one other point... BetaHound Don't believe evrything you might read in the public forum the next few days. BetaHound Togas Togas Would you like us to participate in any sort of a misdirection campagin? BetaHound Just side with the Bobians in your indignation of the upstart Voxians - please and thanks. BetaHound Togas not a problem BetaHound It has been a pleasure chatting with you today. Togas very good to chat with you as well. BetaHound The recent quiet of the game is decieving. BetaHound BetaHound Cheers! Togas we keep up on what's going on ... BetaHound unsderstood. BetaHound Peace. Togas and we like to get involved where we can. Togas Talk to you soon. Take care. BetaHound You too. * Togas has left #pbem * Trip has joined #PBEM Trip PBEM? :P Eli Hi Trip. Eli You'll read the transripts soon enough. Trip hello Trip of course

Me & Beta:

quote: Session Start: Sun Apr 06 22:19:02 2003 Session Ident: BetaHound Session Ident: BetaHound (~brucehyne@CPE00045a72c5ed-CM014310005616.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com) BetaHound Hi. What's up? Eli sec BetaHound k Eli I'm talking with Togas. Since I couldnt tell him our target, i'm bulshitting my way. BetaHound hehe Eli Basically we discussed the option of us invading GoW or Neu. BetaHound do you want me to join or are u OK. Eli And now we talk about GS, I couldnt talk about only one of them because that will tell him our plans. Eli Join in. I'll open a channel. I'll PM you the transcript so that you know what happening. BetaHound K - thx Eli Please join #Pbem Session Close: Sun Apr 06 22:23:25 2003 Session Start: Sun Apr 06 22:23:32 2003 Session Ident: BetaHound Eli Join the Vox Channel for the private talk. Session Close: Sun Apr 06 22:23:51 2003 Session Start: Sun Apr 06 22:27:04 2003 Session Ident: BetaHound Eli #VoxControli Session Close: Sun Apr 06 22:28:33 2003 Session Start: Sun Apr 06 22:31:02 2003 Session Ident: BetaHound Session Ident: BetaHound (~brucehyne@CPE00045a72c5ed-CM014310005616.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com) BetaHound questions questions Eli We must get them into the war. Eli Any help will be great. Eli It will also give us a long term ally on Bob. Eli Which is even more important. BetaHound Agreed! Eli Forget about the couple horsemen they might be able to send. If we win, we'll need someone on Bob. Otherwise it will be the 3 Bobians who will take over the world. We need someone there that is more close to us than to the Bobians. BetaHound yes - we need cash from them. Eli Note that their only reason is to weaken a potentially powerful civ. It makes them less loyal and less trustable. They dont have a personal stake in the matter like we do. BetaHound Agree 100%. RP are a slimey bunch. Eli It also means that they dont want us to conquer GS, but only to take some cities and weaken them. Otherwise the threat to them will simply have a different name. Eli They want a more even situation on our continent, our complete victory is no better than GSs' victory for them. BetaHound Yes - but if the support is cash - then once we have it it is ours to use. Or - if they can get some money out of GS in a deal somehow. Eli Or intelligence. BetaHound Like the iron supply. Eli We must somehow bind them to us. Make the connection more important. Eli This may be too far fetched, but maybe we should practically ally with them? A Vox-RP-Lego axis? BetaHound We can chat about that in a bit - there are some others in the works. BetaHound For now - I am going to try and sell him engineering in advance - sort of as a war loan. Eli This way we insure our interests on Bob, and since we'll(hopefull) be alone on Estonia it will be easy for us to implement. But that's somehting that requires a lot of serious thought. Eli Sounds good. BetaHound 240 gold. 12 gpt once the war starts Eli I dont like gpts. Eli We should try to get as much hard cash as possible and the rest in gpts. Eli I'll return in 10 mins. BetaHound OK - will do. 240 in two payments of 120 each. Eli concerning 1 - as long as it's not something that will not help them in the war, like Chivalry or whatever. Eli Careful with the war start time. BetaHound OK - that wasn't bad. Figure they will stay quiet. Eli I'll post the transcripts in the forums BetaHound Also - I need Ghengis to start sabre rattling. That may force GS into the map deal. BetaHound Thanks Eli! BetaHound btw - long-term... BetaHound couple of options. BetaHound Eli - Kon is here - can we go to VoxControli BetaHound hold on - kon can't get in there. Eli I'm there BetaHound can we set up another room - or do you have to go? BetaHound he is trying Konquest02 Eli He should use only Konquest Eli Did you identified yourself? Eli Check the Note section in the first post in the mIRC thread. Eli You there? BetaHound Eli - Nimitz just contacted me. Gotta go. Back in a bit. Eli ok Eli Kon has problems, we temporarily moved to #Vox

	07-04-2003 01:18									#62
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Err... Apolyton deletes the "<" and ">" signs so we cant see who says what. I dont know how to fix this.

	07-04-2003 01:23									#63
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I'll fix it.

	07-04-2003 01:27									#64
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I already did.

	07-04-2003 02:17									#65
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Excellent reading

And the plot thickends...

	07-04-2003 02:41									#66
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And hopefully so does our wallet.

	07-04-2003 06:14									#67
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HMM I like the sound of this. GS is going to be all alone. Sorry for not posting but I was out of town.

	07-04-2003 07:52									#68
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this looks sweet! How much can we trust togas and RP?

	07-04-2003 08:14									#69
	Got spare money?

Hmmm - that is a good question. Not overly so. That's for sure.

	07-04-2003 17:20									#70
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i think we have to be really kind with RP, as we don't know what is really happening right now with Gengis and GoW. If we can have them as allies, it would be great.

	08-04-2003 01:35									#71
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Another way RP can help us is if they have extra horses they are willing to give us cheap (free? ). We will need a harbor to trade. We could build one in Elipolis or Wittlich.

	08-04-2003 01:44									#72
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yes that would be a big help. WE wouldn't need to rely on GOW so much.

	09-04-2003 08:01									#73
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From Togas of RP with the save:

No declarations of war yet from anyone ... we wish you well and hope to hear the
story after you pull it off

	09-04-2003 10:13									#74
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From and to Togas tonight. It would be great if we could firm up this deal.

Greetings Esteemed Togas of Spain,

Yes - it has started. We thank-you for your wishes and prayers. And we thank-you in advance for whatever support - direct or indirect you may offer. We are under no illusions - we have wakened a sleeping giant. This will take speed, resources, and perserverence to see it to a successful conclusion.

Speaking of support - we had discussed a potential trade for engineering - sort of done as a war loan with collateral. We would very much like to see if we can conclude such an arrangement.

Ten gold per turn, commencing when our current agreement expires, would work nicely in supporting our economy through these troubled times. That should mean the tech will be finished within a handful of turns of the completion of the payments.

Also - please do not pay much attention to the rhetoric regarding operation MacArthur. We have no designs on your continent whatsover, other than of course, potential future support.

I must retrun to the war room - so - best regards, and thank-you once again for your best wishes. To Victory!

.... BetaHound

quote: Togas wrote on 09-04-2003 00:58: I will see what Spain can do to support this noble and worthy cause. Furthermore, I will attempt to sway the nations of our continent to contribute to this affair. May the Lord bless your people in these trying times and grant you the strength and speed to slay your foes. --Togas

	09-04-2003 23:11									#75
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I think I pissed off Togas on IRC.

He wanted to know too much information, at least that's how I see it. I tried to refuse politely but he didnt really like it...

Beta, Harry, anyone, do your diplo pretty-talk with him as soon as you can please.

	09-04-2003 23:13									#76
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The thread didnt bump when I posted the above message.

Bump.

	09-04-2003 23:29									#77
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Will do.

	10-04-2003 00:19									#78
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Chatted with Togas for a bit. He was curious about the role of NeuD and GoW in all this. I said NeuD is standing on the sidelines - and that it wasn't clear yet to the extent of GoW involvement - but that if they did get involved - it would be minimal.

He was also asking about feudalism, and if we knew anyone esle who was researching it. I said no - but asked that he not buy it from GS. He agreed, and said he would try and get it from GoW.

We also firmed up the engineering deal. 200 gold as 10 gpt, starting when the current deal expires.

He said that no one from GS had contacted them yet.

He asked about our military strength - I danced around that one. They know we are bigger than them - which gives us the largest military in the world. They will know it - but no one else. Let's hope they keep that to themselves.

He also asked about our iron supply - and why it was there , then not, then there. He has figured out waht we are up to. Again - that may be info going to GS.

I sort of suspect he may be feeding info to GS - but I am not sure. I do not trust them. That is for sure. If anyone can get a sense if GS and RP are close in any way - it would help.

They also wished us luck - and he seemed sincere about that. He is hard to read.

	10-04-2003 01:53									#79
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quote: I sort of suspect he may be feeding info to GS - but I am not sure. I do not trust them. That is for sure. If anyone can get a sense if GS and RP are close in any way - it would help.

If Eli's read of Shiber in the "... Heart of GS" thread is correct then GS and RP do not get along.

Of course, all the civs could be telling us they don't like GS just to get us to do the dirty work and take GS down a bit.

	10-04-2003 02:04									#80
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quote: I sort of suspect he may be feeding info to GS - but I am not sure. I do not trust them. That is for sure. If anyone can get a sense if GS and RP are close in any way - it would help.

If Eli's read of Shiber in the "... Heart of GS" thread is correct then GS and RP do not get along.

Of course, all the civs could be telling us they don't like GS just to get us to do the dirty work and take GS down a bit.

	10-04-2003 03:27									#81
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Check out my new avatar and description field.

	10-04-2003 03:56									#82
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Eli - it is wonderful! It will p*** them off even more.

But whu did you post this in the RP FA thread???

	10-04-2003 04:25									#83
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Yes, I saw that in the public thread. I laughed so hard I had to wipe my eyes.

	11-04-2003 03:22									#84
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Draft contract. Any comments before we send it to Togas?

Trade Agreement Between Spain and Vox Controli

In exchange for the technology of engineering, to be delivered as 'accepted' to Spanish RolepLay by Vox Controli on or before the date xx turns from this date, Spain agrees to pay the sum of 200 gold, payable as 10 gold per turn, to commence on the turn after the conclusion of the current 8gpt payment for a previous deal, and to run for a period of 20 turns.

Signed ........ Togas......
Signed ........ ????? ..... for Vox Controli

	11-04-2003 03:57									#85
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This is good... I didn't know ????? was part of our team though!

	11-04-2003 04:08									#86
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OK.

I think ????? is lying low to stay out of the fire in the public form.

	11-04-2003 04:32									#87
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Hehehe.

Speaking of RP - get a load of the letter we just got from Togas. A big .

Togas ... Thank-you very much for your letter of support. It will be shared with our team.

Although there is clearly a lot of fun involved in all of this, there is also a fair bit of principle as well. That is why we felt it important to state our case. We appreciate both the moral support, as well as the substantive trade support. Speaking of which, a draft agreement for engineering is under quick review on our side - and should be over to you shortly.

In the meantime, please continue to enjoy the show in the public forum.

Regards..... Beta.

quote: Togas wrote on 10-04-2003 18:43: I must admit, I believe that Vox turned the tide of public opinion against GS when you posted that very well documented History 101. I commend you for coming forward with the real story and backing away from the amusing, but somewhat ridiculous propoganda. This explains everything, and puts things in their proper perspective. There seems no doubt that Vox was on the losing end of your bargain with GS ... what bothers me most are the demands from GS that you split the Lux payment for a city. You gave up a city, not them, yet they made demands for HALF of the money you received?! That's preposterous! They also stiffed you on tech deals and kept warriors inside your territory to watch your movements. Your team has been abused and mistreated for quite some time. History tends to side with the victor. Irregardless of how this war turns out, I believe you are doing the only thing you could possibly do to right this wrong and to give your team a shot at winning the game. However, as reports come in from the front (GoW ships have reported VERY large #s of units ), we are becoming confident that you will be the victors and that this war will be seen a major mistake in the foriegn policy of GS ... and a major military victory by Vox Controli. --Togas

	11-04-2003 04:43									#88
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Wow - and another one from Nuclear Winter. Maybe they are just trying to butter us up as part of a deal with GS. Somehow I don't think so.

My dear Nuclearis Winterius - I don't know what to say. A thousand thank-you's from the soldiers and people of Vox. Yes, for the wine and squid, but the blessings are particularly appreciated. You do us honor.

And we intend to bestow honor on this world by ridding it of the self-righteous and ungodly nation of Gathering Storm. Yes - we know the fight will be hard - but we will prevail.

In addition to your words of support, and your blessings, and the wine and squid, we also thank you for your support through trade. We have a draft of a short agreement for the engineering trade previously discussed. We will forward it to you shortly. In addition, we thank-you for your commitment to not purchase feudalism from the nation of infidels.

Thank-you once again for your best wishes during these dark hours but exciring times for our nation. The war room beckons. My sincerest regards... Beta

aka Beta the Bold, Immortal in General Jon's 1st Voxian Army.

quote: Nuclear Winter wrote on 10-04-2003 18:27: Hello Beta, This is a message I have been wanting to send you since the declaration of war on GS. I and the nation of Spain want to wish you and your armies very good luck fighting the arrogant GSers. We know it will be a hard fight but we from Spain believe your Immortals will triumph. May God guide your swords and strike them were it hurts! Along with this letter goes a full ship of wine and squid for the soldiers; so goes the blessings of our holy cardinals and our Most Holy King Augusto Togas the 1st. Kick the h*ll out of them Nuclearis Winterius the III, ambassdor of Spain to Vox

	11-04-2003 05:03									#89
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Very nice. I guess they like our stack of Immortals. I sure hope GoW has those horsemen on the way and is willing to use them.

	11-04-2003 06:21									#90
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By Togas' comment: ..."(GoW ships have reported VERY large #s of units )" it looks like they do! But until I actually see them land...