10-03-2003 02:52									#31
	Re: Re: Re: Re: Iraqi soldiers already surrendering -- oops. Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

quote: Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat Or, a nice way to pull off a recon mission.

If it were a Recon Mission MtG then it would probably go something like this:

Wait, I Dont speak Iwaqee..so..I will call upon an Actress..maybe Judy "Dorothy" Garland as The General of Yellow Brick Road to Bagdad, assistant to Saddam "Scare Crow" Hussein....

Saddam: (In a Cary Grant vein)


Judy Judy Judy what news from those recon missions?


Judy "Dorothy" Garland: ( In her best Wizard of Oz scared-2-death-tone)


Lions & Tigers & Bears...OH MY!!!!!

Ok..thats what they would say to start..

Mayber under Hypnosis.....a response like this:

Guns Guns and More Bigger Guns!!



Grandpa Troll

	10-03-2003 02:55									#32
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quote: Originally posted by Lancer Poor fellas. Tired and hungry, at the very least they don't support Saddam...yet they can't get away from the attack. They will either be killed going back, or likely bombed in the opening phase, when all they want to do is surrender. The first day should be just leaflets, 'the war has started, surrender now'. Maybe the killing could be partially avoided.

First sensitive post from you for a long time....

	10-03-2003 03:02									#33
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon Remember that it was an American official who said, not long before Pearl Harbour, that the Japanese wouldn't be able to engage in air combat because their "slitty eyes" wouldn't be able to line up the sights properly. This is just another in a long history of the underestimation of military opponents. Let's wait and see....

On the other hand, we HAVE fought the Iraqis before, and we do KNOW what they are capable of.

	10-03-2003 03:05									#34
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quote: Originally posted by Lonestar On the other hand, we HAVE fought the Iraqis before, and we do KNOW what they are capable of.

I take it you missed my first post on this thread. The Iraquis whom we "fought" (which means "we" buried them alive, shot them in the back as they ran and watched them surrender in droves) last time were mainly conscripts. Saddam by and large kept his elite units out of it.

	10-03-2003 03:15									#35
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Erm, Actually, when the Americans did engage the republican guard, they made little impression. But then there is also the Special Republican Guard.

But there won't be many of them.

	10-03-2003 04:17									#36
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Does anyone remember how fierce and fanatical Afghans would bury themselves in the mountain and cause a Vietnam II?

	10-03-2003 04:19									#37
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Agathon, you're full of beans.
Iraqi soldiers surrendered by the hundreds.
I don't know where you get your propaganda.

Think about it a minute.
Here are these soldiers, conscripts, who Hussein throws in front of the mightiest military assemblage imagineable.
You think the average Iraqi soldier wnats that? To die for Hussein?
No.

Just average Iraqi's, ground down on by a madman.

	10-03-2003 04:22									#38
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin If you are wearing a military uniform then you are by definition a legal combatant.

Is this true? Could, say, the IRA, or Hamas, or Al-Qaeda just put on a military uniform? Or have I missed some important, obvious, point, such as the support of an internationally recognised state?

	10-03-2003 04:24									#39
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The Baathist guard are only special because they are as well-equipped as the standard NATO troops.

However, they are not elite.
The SAS, Delta and Foreign Legion are elite forces.

The rank and file Iraqi troops are conscripts and of lesser military value.

Compared to the Baath Guard, the Allied armies are well-equipped, have air superiority and are extremely formidable.
I foresee nothing even close to 100 casualties for our men.

But curse Saddam to hades for what he is about to put his army through, his stubborn arrogance disgusts me.

A lot of men are going to die for nothing.

	10-03-2003 04:35									#40
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quote: Originally posted by srholmes Is this true? Could, say, the IRA, or Hamas, or Al-Qaeda just put on a military uniform? Or have I missed some important, obvious, point, such as the support of an internationally recognised state?

If they wore uniforms then they would be legitimized, at least to that extent. If they wore uniforms, and persisted in committing war crimes, then there would still be a problem.

However, rebels who obey the laws of war and wear uniforms should be given the proper rights of legitimate combatants. Few countries would be willing to grant them, but that's the difference between the ideal and real world.

	10-03-2003 04:43									#41
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Saw a picture in the newspaper of an Iraqi family going through emergency drill.

Two strange things.

1) The man had on a gas mask.
Wonder who's anticipating using gas?

2) The woman and girl had no such mask.

	10-03-2003 04:45									#42
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agathon. The IRG didnt have a chance. And we didnt just engage 'rabble' conscripts. What have you been smoking? The left hook through the desert ran head long into 4 of the 7 Iraqi Republican Gaurd divisions (Tala****a, Hammurabai, and Hussien).Contrary to popular belief only shattered remnants of the IRG escaped Kuwait, the rest were sitting in Baghdad. Anyway, all 4 divisions were massacred and some 900 Iraqi
T-72's, BMP's, and other vehicles were blown to hell at the loss of 11 Coalition AFV's and 2 deaths. Just to prove my point, A story about some 30 British Scimitar's armed with only 30mm cannons destroyed some 60 Iraqi tanks manned by RG forces.

The IRG is over-rated. Sure they fought better than the conscripts. But that isnt much of an improvement considering the conscripts didnt fight at ALL.

	10-03-2003 04:55									#43
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quote: Originally posted by srholmes Is this true? Could, say, the IRA, or Hamas, or Al-Qaeda just put on a military uniform? Or have I missed some important, obvious, point, such as the support of an internationally recognised state?

You have to wear a recognizable uniform and serve as part of a nations armed forces to be defined as a legal combatant. Thus in the Vietnamese war NVA were legal combatants but viet cong were not. The U.S. did treat captured viet cong like POWs but this was mainly a public relations tool. The legally could have been summarially shot as spies since they were combatants dressed as civilians.

	10-03-2003 04:59									#44
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no no, you can't surrender to us now. We have to kill you in 2 weeks.

	10-03-2003 05:02									#45
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This is all speculation. In the first Gulf War the Iraquis didn't really want to fight. The RG were supposed to get the hell out of the way as fast as they could.

Mentioning special forces like the SAS is a bit ridiculous since there aren't many of them and they aren't regular units.

We shall see about the RG. I have a policy of not believeing Gulf War propaganda, based on talking to people who were there.

Anyway, the interesting stuff happens the day after the war ends. Every Iraqui with a gun and a grudge against the US is going to go shooting. And it looks like being a target rich environment.

	10-03-2003 05:05									#46
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"Every Iraqui with a gun and a grudge against the US is going to go shooting."

Like who? Besides the Hussein and his hosehead son ?

	10-03-2003 05:09									#47
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People who hate Americans more than they love their own life.

This story would be funny if it were true.

	10-03-2003 05:12									#48
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Don't feel too bad for them, soon enough they will face a real invasion and get to surrender for real.

	10-03-2003 05:13									#49
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Like who?

Like the people who lost relatives in previous bombing campaigns and wars. Like the people whose kids have died because of the sanctions. Like the people who are sympathetic to OBL's line of thinking. Like the people who hate nothing more than Western interference in Arab affairs. Like the Israel haters who will see the invasion as a pro Zionist takeover of their country. Like Iraqui nationalists. Like the people who will be disappointed when the US installed regime falls far short of democracy. Like the people who've been screwed by SH but want their own state and know damn well that the US will not permit it (Shias, Kurds). Like the people who are dumb enough to have bought SH's propaganda about the US (the Iraqui equivalent of the Americans who believe everything Bush says about SH).

Enough?

	10-03-2003 05:14									#50
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quote: Originally posted by Skanky Burns People who hate Americans more than they love their own life. This story would be funny if it were true.

Hamas and Islamic Jihad don't seem short of recruits these days, despite using them up at a furious rate.

	10-03-2003 05:15									#51
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can anyone provide a link to this story?

	10-03-2003 05:23									#52
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Allthough I belive the Americans will destroy Saddams Army, I also think the casualties will be higher, but not tremendously.

I guarantee afterwords however, the occupying forces are going to meet a bloody resistance, in which the U.S. will crackdown harder and harder, and meet stiffer and stiffer resitance, until the U.S. simply high tails it out of there once a more pacifist President is elected, which sadly, will leave Iraq in anarchistic shambles, and ruled by an even more bloodthirsty dictator once the civil wars have been quelled.

This is not like Japan or Germany, where they were the agressors, this time Iraq is on the defensive. This time they are fighting for their homeland.

Russia was ruled by a bloodthirsty ruthless dictator also, the worst, Joseph Stalin in WW II, but 20 million of them still died for their country to repel the "evil" Nazis. Believe me, Iraqius see America as an evil empire, and will fight.

I quoted evil because realistically Stalin was no better

EDIT: since military officials have denied the story, I think it may be propoganda.

	10-03-2003 05:24									#53
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I agree, the Iraqi army is getting a reputation for preemptive surrender. Soon, when history assesses the worst armies, the Iraqi army of Saddam will be right up there with the French army of 1940.

One can only hope that the rest of the army surrenders as quickly.

	10-03-2003 05:25									#54
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon Like who? Like the people who lost relatives in previous bombing campaigns and wars. Like the people whose kids have died because of the sanctions. Like the people who are sympathetic to OBL's line of thinking. Like the people who hate nothing more than Western interference in Arab affairs. Like the Israel haters who will see the invasion as a pro Zionist takeover of their country. Like Iraqui nationalists. Like the people who will be disappointed when the US installed regime falls far short of democracy. Like the people who've been screwed by SH but want their own state and know damn well that the US will not permit it (Shias, Kurds). Like the people who are dumb enough to have bought SH's propaganda about the US (the Iraqui equivalent of the Americans who believe everything Bush says about SH). Enough?

If you're getting paid by the word, pray continue.

Before you get rolling, I don't think the average Iraqi is against the USA.
Saturday here in Dallas, a Peace demonstration got cut short by a demonstrationof Kurds.
They, for one, love the USA.

Now go on with your story.

	10-03-2003 05:29									#55
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quote: Originally posted by NeOmega EDIT: since military officials have denied the story, I think it may be propoganda.

Gee, who would have guessed?

	10-03-2003 05:32									#56
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quote: Originally posted by NeOmega Allthough I belive the Americans will destroy Saddams Army, I also think the casualties will be higher, but not tremendously. I guarantee afterwords however, the occupying forces are going to meet a bloody resistance, in which the U.S. will crackdown harder and harder, and meet stiffer and stiffer resitance, until the U.S. simply high tails it out of there once a more pacifist President is elected, which sadly, will leave Iraq in anarchistic shambles, and ruled by an even more bloodthirsty dictator once the civil wars have been quelled. This is not like Japan or Germany, where they were the agressors, this time Iraq is on the defensive. This time they are fighting for their homeland. Russia was ruled by a bloodthirsty ruthless dictator also, the worst, Joseph Stalin in WW II, but 20 million of them still died for their country to repel the "evil" Nazis. Believe me, Iraqius see America as an evil empire, and will fight. I quoted evil because realistically Stalin was no better EDIT: since military officials have denied the story, I think it may be propoganda.

The problem with Hitler's campaign against the USSR is that he turned it into a war of conquest, not one of liberation. Had he truly liberated the Ukranians, for example, he may have been able to take the whole of Russia because he would have had a good portion of the people on his side against Stalin.

	10-03-2003 05:36									#57
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quote: Originally posted by SlowwHand If you're getting paid by the word, pray continue. Before you get rolling, I don't think the average Iraqi is against the USA. Saturday here in Dallas, a Peace demonstration got cut short by a demonstrationof Kurds. They, for one, love the USA. Now go on with your story.

I don't understand how you could know what the average Iraqi thinks based on what you have seen in Dallas. How many Iraqis have a second residence in Dallas? Surely you would need to go to Iraq.

If I think about any of the beliefs that I hold, it seems that many of them are based at least in part on what I have been exposed to over my life, especially when young, and it takes a good deal of mental effort to reconsider all of our beliefs rationally and change any that don't make sense. I think it quite likely that the are some Iraqis, maybe even average Iraqis, who believe that the US is acting aggressively rather than as a force of liberation, as some in the US seem to believe.

	10-03-2003 05:40									#58
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quote: Originally posted by SlowwHand If you're getting paid by the word, pray continue. Before you get rolling, I don't think the average Iraqi is against the USA. Saturday here in Dallas, a Peace demonstration got cut short by a demonstrationof Kurds. They, for one, love the USA. Now go on with your story.

Um OK - The Kurds here in TO were protesting against the USA. They hoped to get their own state out of the war. It now looks like they won't get it and may well not even retain the independent status they currently have. They are going to be p*****d IMHO.

I seem to remember another war in which the US claimed it was going to liberate the people from oppression. In fact they had to imprison the inhabitants of that country in village prisons to stop them joining the "oppressors".

Most of the Arabs hate the US' guts. The Israel issue alone is enough to make the average Arab's blood boil.

	10-03-2003 06:03									#59
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Agathon, the people and government of Kuwait really like the US despite our support of Israel. I think the there are so many who Iraqi's who hate Saddam that they will be overjoyed to be liberated. They will support new government and oppose the radicals like al Qaida who will try to turn a post-Saddam Iraq into a sea of anti-US terrorism. There will be incidents, of course, but al Qaida, I predict, will not be very effective in a future Iraq. The people simply will not want a return to a butcher-dictator as their king.

Immediately after Saddam's surrender, the whole country will be under marshall law. The Kurds, Sunni's, Christians and Shi'ites will all be in the same boat. There will be no immediate reason for a revolt if they truly want independence. They may actually get it through negotiations.

These negotiations will begin almost immediately after the last shot is fired. I personally think a federation makes sense. But the Iraqi's themselves have to decide this issue.

	10-03-2003 06:11									#60
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"Most of the Arabs hate the US' guts. The Israel issue alone is enough to make the average Arab's blood boil."

tsk,tsk.
Iraq can run their country, for my vote; and Israel can run their's.