10-03-2003 00:01									#1
	Iraqi soldiers already surrendering -- oops. Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

quote: SADDAM'S SOLDIERS SURRENDER Mar 9 2003 Mike Hamilton reports from Camp Coyote in Kuwait TERRIFIED Iraqi soldiers have crossed the Kuwait border and tried to surrender to British forces - because they thought the war had already started. The motley band of a dozen troops waved the white flag as British paratroopers tested their weapons during a routine exercise. The stunned Paras from 16 Air Assault Brigade were forced to tell the Iraqis they were not firing at them, and ordered them back to their home country telling them it was too early to surrender. The drama unfolded last Monday as the Para batallion tested mortars and artillery weapons to make sure they were working properly. The Iraqis found a way across the fortified border, which is sealed off with barbed-wire fencing, watchtowers and huge trenches. TESTING TIME: British Marines are preparing for war A British Army source in Kuwait contacted me to explain how the extraordinary surrender bid unfolded. The source said: "The British guys on the front-line could not believe what was happening. They were on pre-war exercises when all of a sudden these Iraqis turned up out of nowhere, with their hands in the air, saying they wanted to surrender. "They had heard firing and thought it was the start of the war. "The Paras are a tough, battle-hardened lot but were moved by the plight of the Iraqis. There was nothing they could do other than send them back. "They were a motley bunch and you could barely describe them as soldiers - they were poorly equipped and didn't even have proper boots. Their physical condition was dreadful and they had obviously not had a square meal for ages. No one has ever known a group of so-called soldiers surrender before a shot has been fired in anger." Last night the Ministry of Defence officially denied the incident had taken place, but the story was corroborated by an intelligence source. Meanwhile Saddam Hussein has ordered thousands of troops back to Baghdad as he turns the city into a fortress. It is believed that two rings of steel are being established around Baghdad. The outer one consists of regular Iraqi army soldiers and the inner one is made up of Republican Guard fighters - thought to be the only troops that will put up fierce resistance.

	10-03-2003 00:04									#2
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quote: The stunned Paras from 16 Air Assault Brigade were forced to tell the Iraqis they were not firing at them, and ordered them back to their home country telling them it was too early to surrender. ... The Iraqis found a way across the fortified border, which is sealed off with barbed-wire fencing, watchtowers and huge trenches.

Proof that the French have been assisting Iraq by training soldiers.

	10-03-2003 00:04									#3
	Re: Iraqi soldiers already surrendering -- oops. Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

quote: Originally posted by Zkribbler There was nothing they could do other than send them back.

Man, they´ll get in serious trouble back home. Couldn´t they get asylum somehow? The article is fun to read, but for those guys the fun ends behind the Iraqi borders...

	10-03-2003 00:09									#5
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quote: Originally posted by BeBro Man, they´ll get in serious trouble back home. Couldn´t they get asylum somehow? The article is fun to read, but for those guys the fun ends behind the Iraqi borders...

they're dead. No doubt.

quote: The Iraqis found a way across the fortified border, which is sealed off with barbed-wire fencing, watchtowers and huge trenches.

So, they would rather risk their lives surrendering than risking their life to fight.

	10-03-2003 00:09									#6
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"We surrender!"

"...I'm sorry, but war hasen't stated yet, you'll have to go back."

"We can't surrender?"

"No."

"We...defect! Yeah, that's it, we defect!"

	10-03-2003 00:47									#7
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The US military dominance is too scary for most Iraqi soldiers to fight on. Since they can expect better treatments in American prison camps than in their regular units, why the hell wouldn't they surrender?

Saddam wants to make final stand in Bagdhad. While it sounds good in theory, it never makes sense to prepare for siege. Americans can just control the rest of the country, including all the oil fields, and use the oil revenues to simply buy off Iraqis. What would the people in Bagdhad react if they see that their fellow countrymen are leading good lifes, while they have to struggle in that sh1thole?

	10-03-2003 00:51									#8
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quote: Originally posted by Calc II they're dead. No doubt.

Or, a nice way to pull off a recon mission.

	10-03-2003 00:55									#9
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They made a bad mistake.. I have no doubts they will be executed when they get back. Maybe they could have given them few tents and stuff for them to set a small camp right next to the border.. give them some water and food, wouldn't be too hard and Iraqi soldiers would destroy their weapons in trade, and when war starts they'd surrender.. that way they would save their lives at least. But I don't know how realistic that solution would even be.. but would be human thing to do.

	10-03-2003 00:55									#10
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yes, to mount a suprise invasion.

	10-03-2003 00:57									#11
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Why couldn't they keep the soldiers, defecting or not?

	10-03-2003 00:59									#12
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Couldn't they be considered as illegal combatants? Surely they where carrying guns? And then give them some slack..

	10-03-2003 00:59									#13
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Why the **** did they send them back, though?

	10-03-2003 01:06									#14
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I wouldn't make too much of this. The large part of the Iraqui army are conscripts and most of the time such units just don't have the stomach for a fight against anyone other than civilians. It isn't that they are Iraqui, after all the Argentine conscripts didn't really do much better in the Falklands War of 1982. Similarly the first Gulf War was mainly carried on against conscripts and other such rabble, since Saddam was so hell bent on preserving his elite units he didn't take risks with them. He never had a realistic prospect of holding Kuwait and to attribute to the Iraquis a serious will to hold it is ridiculous.

I seriously doubt that the elite units of the Iraqui army will be such a pushover. They are well treated by Saddam and have high morale. I imagine that they will fight quite hard.

I doubt that Saddam intends to seriously protect the border with Kuwait. My guess is that he will pull his elite units back into cities (indeed he has made such moves already) and let his enemy come at him. This will have the advantage of making things difficult for his enemies as they then only have the option of taking casualties or flattening the place. Nobody wants to see either of these things happen.

	10-03-2003 01:08									#15
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I would hate to fight enemy that wants to surrender so bad. Would feel like murdering. I would have looked for all options to get these guys in and show some mercy. I don't know if it was even possible but anyway.. I think something could have been worked out.

	10-03-2003 01:15									#16
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Really, though, I feel sorry for those guys when they have to go back home. They're going to get hell (probably literally! ) from their leaders.

	10-03-2003 01:18									#17
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mrmitchell, I'm more than sure of this. They'd be in lots of trouble in any country pulling stunt like this. They want to make examples out of them, and they will not live through it. I feel for this guys, they didn't want to fight at all and had no choices. I just hope they realize it and don't go back to their own, rather stay near the border and try again.

	10-03-2003 01:27									#18
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Saddam's plan is to make two defensive rings around Bagdhad. The inside ring will be Republican Guard. The outside ring will be regulars. The regulars will be told that if they try to surrender they will be killed by the Republican Guard. Inside the city will be the most loyal troops to Saddam, the ones that know they could never survive in Iraq without Saddam in power because they are so hated by the Iraqi people.

	10-03-2003 01:49									#19
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quote: Originally posted by Pekka Couldn't they be considered as illegal combatants? Surely they where carrying guns? And then give them some slack..

If you are wearing a military uniform then you are by definition a legal combatant.

	10-03-2003 01:50									#20
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Sadly, no high level commanders, members of the republican guard, or members of the internal security forces were involved, and all talk about an internal coup against Saddam seems to have ended..the people that everyone thinks might fight are not the ones giving up.

Also, I am not surprised soldiers in Southern Iraq think the war has started, given the increased number of atatcks against targets in the Southern No flight Zone.

	10-03-2003 01:53									#21
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Oerdin, well if they crossed the borders, then how about spies? Intelligence? Something like that. It's all technical mumbo jumbo

	10-03-2003 01:55									#22
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The Iraqi military is not dumb.

And neither have the rank and file any real reason to love Saddam or offer him any loyalty.

For more than twenty years he has massacred the once-proud Iraqi army.
Against Iran and the Allied Coalition in the Gulf War I.

The Iraqi Officer Corps know even after a regime change, Iraq will still need a security force.

I suspect certain elements in the command chain will welcome Saddam's death and even assist the Allies if possible. To speed the dictator's fall.

Iraq will need an army after Gulf War II, there is no point dying for a lost cause and a hated leader.

	10-03-2003 02:02									#23
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Damn, couldn't we have helped these guys out and stashed them somewhere? I hope they aren't tortured when they get back.

Also, what curt said.

	10-03-2003 02:02									#24
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No one thinks the regular army will do much beyond clog roads as they surrender..the question is how hard the internal security forces, the Republican guards, and other pro-Saddam paramilitary forces will fight. I remember how, about a month ago, all these stories kept circulating, about machinations near the top, and reports that members of Saddam's inner council were gettign jitters. All those stories have vanished: few think a coup will happen before the war starts. What happened to all the "enthusiasm" for giving up?

	10-03-2003 02:05									#25
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Remember that it was an American official who said, not long before Pearl Harbour, that the Japanese wouldn't be able to engage in air combat because their "slitty eyes" wouldn't be able to line up the sights properly.

This is just another in a long history of the underestimation of military opponents. Let's wait and see....

	10-03-2003 02:05									#26
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GePap,

The truth is we don't know how the core is going to react. Could go either way. Though I suspect once the CIA is on the ground and starts offereing some cash money...

	10-03-2003 02:10									#27
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Poor fellas. Tired and hungry, at the very least they don't support Saddam...yet they can't get away from the attack. They will either be killed going back, or likely bombed in the opening phase, when all they want to do is surrender.

The first day should be just leaflets, 'the war has started, surrender now'. Maybe the killing could be partially avoided.

	10-03-2003 02:14									#28
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I hope so Lancer.

	10-03-2003 02:24									#29
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quote: Originally posted by Ted Striker GePap, The truth is we don't know how the core is going to react. Could go either way. Though I suspect once the CIA is on the ground and starts offereing some cash money...

these aren't some hicks inAfghanistan who want a new pickup. many of these guys, specially the internal security elements, which nymber in the thousands, are par and parcel of the Saddam regime: their future in a new Iraq is cloudy. All the money we have spent in Afghanistan and we didn't even get anyone to give us Mullah Omar.

The safe and prudent bet is that they (the core) will fight.

	10-03-2003 02:26									#30
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quote: Originally posted by Lancer Poor fellas. Tired and hungry, at the very least they don't support Saddam...yet they can't get away from the attack. They will either be killed going back, or likely bombed in the opening phase, when all they want to do is surrender. The first day should be just leaflets, 'the war has started, surrender now'. Maybe the killing could be partially avoided.

I was in Psyops for six years and that is exactly the type of things they do. During the last Gulf war one of the most effective Psyop campaigns was to drop a bunch of leflets on an Iraqi base saying "This base will be bombed tommorrow; surrender or flee if you want to live", then the next day the base was bombed and the cycle continues until almost everyone had deserted or surrendered.