04-08-2003 14:00									#271
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Message from DeepO... why am I not surprised to see that New Madrid will remain in GS' hands "longer than anticipated"...?

quote: Vondrack, I'm sorry to have missed the chat yesterday, I came home much too late, and went straight for bed. However, if possible, I would like to reschedule it for tonight... given your last message, there are some things we need to discuss. Would 21:00 GMT suit you? BTW, I mentioned in my last message that New Madrid was going to be returned to RP in 50 AD... but the plans have changed somewhat, we need to hold on to it for at least a couple more turns, as it can't be defended by RP against GoW (and they are threatening the city) Hope to see you tonight, DeepO

	04-08-2003 18:37									#272
	Inflate your Upload Space

Hmm... so RP can't defend it, but GS feels they have enough forces to hold it against GoW in place already? Either this means that GoW still isn't actively attacking GS, which is bad news; or, GS has a strong contingent of forces in place already, which is also bad news. Nothing good in this PM

	05-08-2003 02:47									#273
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

The chatlog:

quote: Session Start: Mon Aug 04 22:09:33 2003 Session Ident: #bananaman * Now talking in #bananaman * nye has joined #bananaman DeepO: okay... DeepO: I'm not entirely sure about your last message DeepO: was it meant as a final warning? DeepO: or rather a breaking of diplomatic ties? vondrack: if it was breaking diplomatic ties, I would not be here, I think DeepO: because we feel you have the wrong impression of what's happening. vondrack: rather an urgent warning DeepO: well, we hoped so much DeepO: okay, did my reply satisfy your worries? vondrack: humm... not much, to be honest... vondrack: but it's not the message vondrack: it's how the whole war is going DeepO: please explain vondrack: RPers seem to be crumbling vondrack: and we can see you trying to fill their space vondrack: at least that is what we would try to do if we were yourself DeepO: we're doing all we can to keep RP alive DeepO: and we have no interest in their space vondrack: ummm... GS has no interest in territory on Bob? DeepO: apart from one point: we have always valued the Lego relation, and want to continue that DeepO: your concerns are taken into account DeepO: well, no that's not right. But as explained, we want only the strategic stuff DeepO: anyway, perhaps nye can explain it better DeepO: nye? nye: vondrack, we need to occupy part of the frontage for rp. we need the cities in the area that we will defend. vondrack: that has always been clear nye: ok. so we are doing that vondrack: though the "part" is getting bigger every turn... vondrack: almost every turn nye: yes, the riders approach vondrack: see, guys, it is like this: as long as we feel that GS is a rival we can cope with peacefully, we will stick to peaceful ways nye: understood vondrack: once we believe you (or anyone else!) are getting too powerful, we will have to change our approach vondrack: this applies to EVERY other team in this game vondrack: we may be silly builders, but we still know the rules... vondrack: one team to bind them all... nye: heh nye: yes, i suppose we all want to win Aeson: knew we shouldn't let nye put our secret plans on his sig! vondrack: the message we sent you was meant to indicate we were getting increasingly worried about how things proceed on Bob nye: we understand nye: however, we are telling you that many of the cities you see are short term. we need them to defend the area vondrack: understood - we are not hurrying troops to Bob either yet vondrack: just a side-note... did you guys anticipated how fast RPers would be falling? nye: there has been a lot of misinformation posted. we can see how it would be confusing vondrack: looking at the map, it looks like they have already lost the war nye: this is not a good time for them vondrack: yeah vondrack: they asked for help vondrack: we have been extensively discussing helping them somehow vondrack: in a non-military way nye: it would be good if you could lend assistance vondrack: but all we seem to have (almost) available at this moment vondrack: would be Astronomy vondrack: and Education, I think - they do not have it yet vondrack: either nye: some gold would help them vondrack: our coffers are almost empty nye: but that is up to you and your team vondrack: and frankly, we do not feel like giving them gold vondrack: too risky business nye: how risky? vondrack: how long do you expect them to last? Aeson: because they are just losing cities vondrack: "just"? Aeson: meant that's why it's risky nye: with adequate help, they are not lost vondrack: I can see only 2 decent Spanish cities left Aeson: to give them gold... losing cities loses gold vondrack: true... though I can imagine they would immediately use the gold for rushes nye: i would think they would Aeson: so then why does Lego consider it risky? vondrack: since we are less then sure they will be around long enough to provide something in return nye: we were forced to look at it another way nye: not what rp could give us in return DeepO: true nye: but, did we want to see nd triple in size nye: all near their palace vondrack: we do not believe ND would be allowed to take all their land vondrack: they would either have to give up something to GoW vondrack: or GoW would backstab nye: yes, but nd could double or more in size and gow would still get bits DeepO: we may have deterioted that equation, btw vondrack: ? DeepO: because we only hampered GoW for the moment DeepO: as ND was out of reach vondrack: yeah DeepO: the treaty could very well have been that for each city GoW takes DeepO: they would receive on up North DeepO: now, GoW is not taking cities DeepO: making ND even more powerful nye: i think you are on the right track, deepo DeepO: I suspected as much for a while DeepO: but there were little other options left DeepO: and... if such a treaty is in place DeepO: GoW would be very concerned about a backstab too nye: not if we wanted to prevent the rise of two civs each the size of lego in land DeepO: well yes, but in interfering, we destabilized the GoW-ND balance DeepO: we need to go through with this, now DeepO: but we can't, if we also have Lego to worry about... nye: do you see why we got involved, vondrack? vondrack: I am not sure you are right, DeepO... their alliance seems to be pretty solid DeepO: don't bet on it vondrack: yes, we do see that, of course DeepO: the point is: there is no alliance DeepO: GoW is under contract DeepO: once the contract is gone: no more alliance vondrack: you sure? vondrack: the posts in the public forum would indicate otherwise vondrack: though I might have been misreading them nye: no, we are not DeepO: well, not definately DeepO: but all the public posts seem to go in that direction nye: btw, vondrack. does lego have any questions about all that business in the forums? vondrack: nye: i will answer, if i can vondrack: vondrack: I do not care the tiniest bit vondrack: even if I am unable to resist and keep reading all the stuff nye: i thought some of your team might have some questions vondrack: if they had, they'd ask, I think vondrack: we have no policy re: posting in the public forum vondrack: everybody is free to get involved DeepO: we don't have much policy either, it seems nye: how can anyone believe half the stuff posted on the forum? vondrack: half??? vondrack: hehe vondrack: sometimes I can barely believe the posters' names... nye: disinformation has been very well demonstrated in this game, in that forum DeepO: most of it coming from GoW... nye: i wouldn't say that, DeepO vondrack: it was Vox before, it was RPers all the time... DeepO: well... most, not everything DeepO: ah, true DeepO: forgot about the Vox war vondrack: vondrack: propaganda is part of this game vondrack: like it or not nye: i find it interesting that opinions are made based on the propaganda vondrack: though - I still think the actual effect of the propaganda is very limited vondrack: and most ingame decisions are based on facts vondrack: not propaganda DeepO: like RP, even if they're not exactly our buddies, needing our help? vondrack: but - yes, it is very interesting to watch the prop wars and their outcomes nye: that is why i was wondering if lego felt they needed any facts about all that business vondrack: well vondrack: the facts... vondrack: fact: GS and RP are fighting GoW and ND DeepO: defending against would be our chosen words vondrack: hehe - but it was me choosing them... nye: that would be gloss, though nye: please go on, vondrack vondrack: fact: if any of these teams start getting the upper hand, we have to seriously consider vondrack: how much peacenick we really are nye: true vondrack: since once the war is over vondrack: our options will be very limited vondrack: overseas invasions are extremely costly vondrack: if there is no instant beachhead vondrack: like in your case vondrack: so... the "facts" discussed in the public forum vondrack: are sort of... irrelevant for us vondrack: it's not that important who started it vondrack: we still have to watch very carefully nye: yes vondrack: and if the balance shifts too much in any direction vondrack: we may be forced to get involved vondrack: just like you felt you had to intervene on behalf of RP nye: so, you are likely to march against those who are winning? vondrack: sounds funny... vondrack: but it is probably true vondrack: it's difficult to say vondrack: without knowing the exact context nye: well, as you can see... at this rate there will soon be only 4 armies in the world vondrack: ? vondrack: are RPers losing even troops? nye: rp is fighting, while they have lost production potential vondrack: true nye: so, eventually, their army will not be very big nye: so, then there will be 4 vondrack: yeah, that sounds just about right nye: i wonder... nye: there is so much invested in the game, by so many people vondrack: that's probably why the flames use to be so intense nye: would it be possible for a couple of civs to agree on conduct of the later game? vondrack: not sure what you mean nye: how will victory be achieved? nye: conquest? nye: domination? nye: un? nye: space ship? nye: the first two are almost impossible nye: in this sort of game vondrack: whoever pulling them would be a true master nye: yes, they would be vondrack: frankly, I have no idea myself... but I know I sometimes wish this game was over vondrack: I really wish so... nye: i know what you mean DeepO: hmmm...same here Aeson: we could speed it up vondrack: LoL DeepO: Vondrack, one of the problems we face DeepO: is that on one hand we need the gold for RP DeepO: on the other we want to keep researching DeepO: we still value a tech-partner DeepO: one sec vondrack: k DeepO: Shiber is knocking DeepO: okay, that should do it DeepO: so... seeing as domination or conquest are near impossible DeepO: we need research. DeepO: your last message got us worried quite a bit, DeepO: as it had an undertone of: we don't want no deals no more DeepO: in that case, banking wouldn't do us much good * Shiber has joined #bananaman Shiber: Hi. vondrack: hi DeepO: but we would be obligied to research it DeepO: hi Shiber DeepO: the thing is: we want to research DeepO: if we want to research DeepO: we can't go ful in this war DeepO: and, if we don't have the guarantee we can trade later, it won't be good for us to speed along DeepO: which makes us much more depending on what you decide DeepO: and also explains in part why we value you position so much vondrack: do you need to slow down your banking research? DeepO: no, not really needed DeepO: as it would only make our position after the war worse DeepO: RP just will have to manage with what we can invest nye: well, if we both slowed down, we could both assist rp more DeepO: that might be needed... Shiber: As it looks now, RP could become extinct real soon. vondrack: well, we DID discuss the way of helping RP - but we pretty much ruled gold out, to be honest vondrack: you have correctly pointed out vondrack: that they have pretty much lost their production potential DeepO: temporary! vondrack: and building units for gold will be VERY costly nye: they don;t lose any cash to cities falling, if they use it to rush vondrack: yeah, sure - but it would be our cash... DeepO: ours as well, Vondrack vondrack: true DeepO: RP needs the cash, and as much as we want them to stay alive, we won't be the only supporters, I fear... nye: well, if they do not get enough assitance, then they will go down. that would leave 2 Bob civs. DeepO: X-posting vondrack: guys, I can see what you are trying to suggest - but I am not authorized to promise anything regarding this vondrack: all I can do is to bring it to my team nye: of course vondrack: otherwise, I would be acting against what we have decided so far nye: it would be enough for lego to consider it nye: that is a good beginning DeepO: I very good one... vondrack: the log will be posted, as usually - and there is always a discussion about it DeepO: but please, don't wait too long DeepO: ND is seriously pressuring RP DeepO: anything else? vondrack: I do not think so... DeepO: I'm leaving, so sweat dreams! vondrack: good night, everybody DeepO: and thanks for the chat vondrack: my pleasure vondrack: take care, guys! Aeson: bye vondrack! Session Close: Mon Aug 04 23:14:06 2003

I just hope I confused them as hell.

	05-08-2003 04:26									#274
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

Oh, this is so confusing.

Vondrack, you did a great job of balancing truth and not making any commitments.

They sound very believable, but bottom line is: if GS wants to win, they must take part of Bob. So unless something drastic happens, we need to stick to our plans.

At least they now know that if they are on Bob, they risk a war with us.

As far as supporting RP, we could never give enough to save a dying team. I think GS understands that.

	06-08-2003 01:27									#275
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

GS has me convinced they may actually have trouble with ND & GoW once RP falls. May. But if they do, that just means we don't have to intervene to protect ND & GoW's cores.

But I don't see any reason to change our plans after this chat. GS is still a big threat, especially considering our military comparisons to ND and to GS.

	14-08-2003 18:30									#276
	Increase the size of your Attachments

Good news from GS. Great news, actually.

quote: To Vondrack & the People of Legoland: As the people of Legoland are no doubt aware, the people of the Gathering Storm are presently engaged in the War-to-not-quite-end-all-wars. It is a difficult time for our nation. Aside from the normal stresses of combat, there is the issue of cash flow. We have previously agreed to research banking in exchange for your research of Astronomy. At the outset, I'd like to be clear that, if Legoland insists upon it, we will certainly abide by the terms of our original deal. However, if your people are willing to restructure the deal in mutually agreeable fashion that would allow the Gathering Storm more free cash for the prosecution of the war, we would be most appreciative. I and my teamates are open to creative solutions, so please don't hesitate to throw some into the mix. Here is the one thought we've come up with thus far: as I understand it (correct me if I'm wrong), Legoland is also interested in the technology of Invention. Invention is less expensive than Banking. What it the Gathering Storm researched Invention instead, and either 1) provided cash reimbursement to Legoland for the difference in technology cost at a later date; or 2) received cash from Legoland for Invention, and not Astronomy. Clearly, I cannot anticipate your exact wants/needs, so my ideas may not be of much use to you. This is why I encourage you to propose other solutions that perhaps fit Legoland's plans better. The long and the short of it is that we need cash right now, and researching banking (though it could be done) would be quite a strain, and hamper our war efforts. I am by no means naive enough to believe you have any particular interest in assisting our war efforts. However, I do believe it is in your interests to keep us fighting. I can't imagine Legoland wants a decisive victory for ND + GoW, anymore than it wants a decisive victory for GS + RP. So obviously it is up to you to guage whether or not restructuring our tech deal is in your best interests. I leave it to you. As I said, if Legoland insists, we will abide by the original deal. Respectfully, -Arrian Co-general of the armies of the Gathering Storm Assistant Ambassador to the people of Legoland

I believe this is our golden chance to have this whole deal scrapped, denying Astronomy to GS (read: keeping our Western coast safe).

I suggest we respond basically with truth - just not the whole of it... ..that we have already arranged a trade for Invention. I'd "hesitantly" offer to scrap this whole deal - asking (in a bit "upset" way) whether GS would want us to return the little gold balance we got for the research cost difference between Astronomy and Banking (I'd expect them to respond with - "oh, no, thank you, just keep that change, we consider that a small price for being allowed to legally back out of a deal which is not that great for us at the moment").

What do you think?

	14-08-2003 18:44									#277
	Get a bigger avatar today!

Few more thoughts:

If we use this wonderful opportunity to back out of this tech trade (upon the request of GS! ) now, GS will:

a) not be able to upgrade their galleys to caravels
b) two techs away from Navigation, thus unable to threaten our western coast for many turns
c) waste their time researching something we get basically for free, allowing us to regain the tech lead we had before trading them Theo/Edu
d) waste their gold on something that I consider a lost cause (support of RPers)
e) make RPers last a bit longer -> make our eventual contribution to the allied war effort all that more important

The more I am thinking of this, the more convinced I am we should "agree" to scrapping the Astro/Banking swap altogether.

	14-08-2003 19:44									#278
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

Great! They will research something that we will probably get faster and then they won't be able to beat us on Gunpowder, (because they need the cashflow, too while we will get financing).

Besides they won't be able to research Navigation. It couldn't be better than that!

	14-08-2003 20:04									#279
	Got spare money?

This is pretty good news. This basically solves the entire GS-Astro debate for us. Vondrack, if you want to write up something like you proposed, saying that we already have a deal for Inv in place, and can't reneg on it (that would be dishonorable ), but that we understand GS' plight, and would accept it if they needed to back out of the deal. And, of course, we'd be willing to renegotiate something for Astro with them in the future

	14-08-2003 20:13									#280
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

I will put something together and post it later today - we should not respond too fast, I think... after all, we are supposed to discuss creative solutions, you know...

I will just briefly acknowledge getting the PM and promise to get back to them within 48 hours.

	14-08-2003 20:38									#281
	Suffering from ads?

My brief response to Arrian:

quote: Arrian, Just briefly acknowledging the receipt of your message. While I personally understand your reasons and needs, I am unable to give you an answer immediately. Changing a tech trade like this will require some discussion and perhaps a re-poll in our team. One thing I can tell you immediately, though, is that we have already pre-arranged a trade for Invention. We shall get it not immediately after finishing our Astronomy research, but in a reasonable timeframe (soon enough, considering our needs, I'd say) and at a reasonable price, so that's not what we would ask for instead of Banking. I will present your message to my team and get back to you as soon as I have an official response (I will do my best to have it within 48 hours - certainly before your next turn comes up). Best regards, vondrack

	15-08-2003 01:18									#282
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

I rather doubt they would want to scrap the Astronomy deal completely, but they may have little choice in the matter.

As for us, I'll all for scrapping the deal. The only reason we are honoring the deal is for...well honor and to maintain the neutrality smoke screen.

We should recommend scrapping the remainder of the deal and offer any reasonable compensation. Then the ball is in their court; what do they really want more. They can have immediate gold, but lose Astronomy OR less gold and gain Astronomy. In either case, we are helping the war effort...of course I prefer the no Astronomy option.

	16-08-2003 05:12									#283
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

So, here is a draft of our "official" response regarding the Astronomy/Banking deal. I'll appreciate comments, even if it's just 'ok' - I am not going to send it to Arrian until I get some feedback.

quote: Dear Arrian, We have discussed your last message in our Senate. Here is what has become apparent from the discussion and what is now our official stance: 1) We understand your needs and wish to accomodate you. As indicated several times in the public forum, we are well aware of that if a deal ceases to work for both parties, it's time to change it - unless one is happy to make the other party unhappy. 2) ATM, we are basically interested in gold and techs only - neither of which seems to work well for you, as long as a deal for Astronomy is concerned - since you need gold for your war efforts and intend to research Invention (instead of Banking), which we have already prearranged a deal for with another team. 3) Considering the previous two points, we believe that the best solution now would be to agree to renegotiate the tech trade agreement currently in effect, scrapping the Astronomy for Banking tech swap part. We would not hold this against Gathering Storm - it would be a mutually approved change to an existing trade agreement. 4) The trade agreement in effect included a certain, though not expressly specified amount of gold meant to balance the beaker cost difference between Astronomy and Banking. Would you ask for a reimbursement? If you would - what would be the amount and payment schedule? 5) As long as the previous point does not become an issue, we are ready to officially amend the current deal, so that it would not include the Astronomy for Banking swap. I hope this at least to a certain extent meets your needs. We would hope to trade Astronomy with you once there are other/more options available. Respectfully, vondrack FAM of Legoland

	17-08-2003 00:10									#284
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

After discussing with Sharpe and ZargonX, I PMed the message to Arrian with no changes.

	17-08-2003 04:50									#285
	Put an end to popups!

I should have posted my approval. I read through the message and it looked flawless, so I didn't create a post.

As for being flawless...don't let it go to your head

	21-08-2003 00:17									#286
	Tired of ads?

Message from Arrian:

quote: Dear Vondrack, and the people of Legoland: First, allow me to express the thanks of our people for Legoland's understanding and flexibility in this matter. It is much appreciated. We've discussed it, and decided that the best course of action is to take you up on your offer to void the Banking-Astronomy deal. We've also discussed the compensation for the difference in tech costs (40gold, was it, from us to you? Please correct me if I'm mistaken!) and decided to waive it, in consideration for your team's willingness to help us out by voiding the deal. You have mentioned that you will be receiving Invention soon, via a deal with another team. I have four questions regarding that transaction: 1) Can you tell me exactly when you will have Inv? 2) Can you tell me where you're getting it from? 3) Can you sell it to us, or is there a NDA. If so, for how long? 4) If you can sell Invention to us (either now, or when a NDA runs out), how much would you want for it? Thanks again, and I hope to hear from you soon ('poly willing). -Arrian Co-General of the Armies of the Gathering Storm Assistant Ambassador to the people of Legoland

I am anxiously awaiting your ideas regarding our response...

	21-08-2003 00:59									#287
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Well, I'm sure they've already piece together WHO we're getting it from, so the when is probably more important to them. There's really no point in lying about it, as they would see the evidence of how it spreads immediately anyway. As for the other questions, well, we do have an NDA, and the selling price after is something we'd have to think about

	21-08-2003 06:11									#288
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Might as well be relatively truthful. As Zargon says, they will probably figure it out on their own.

And we do have a NDA so we can't trade it to anyone else until it is done...

	21-08-2003 22:17									#289
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

So, a draft of our response to GS (as Zargon & Sharpe suggested, it is almost pure truth ):

quote: Dear Arrian, Consider this note an official addendum to our existing trade agreement, nullifying the part about swapping our Astronomy for your Banking (and consequently, about you being granted the research of Economy). BTW - the gold balance was, IIRC, never precisely specified, as the Edu/Astro/Banking deal involved several assets difficult to value separately, but 40 gold would probably be quite close. As for Invention... as you might have guessed, we are getting it from Glory of War - very soon, if their word is to be trusted. It comes with an NDA, the length of which has not been specified - pretty much like the agreement we had on Astronomy/Banking. Neither party expressly forbids a future resale arrangement, but the resale rights are not covered by the initial deal... which makes your last question, about the price, impossible to answer. Once we acquire Invention, we will not be allowed to resell it without seeking GoW's permission. Best regards, vondrack

BTW - has anyone noticed GS built The Great Wall in 90AD...?

	23-08-2003 12:51									#290
	Tired of ads?

Message PMed to Arrian.

	24-08-2003 21:56									#291
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

You know, on second though, I don't think we should make any proclamation of support for GoW-ND anymore. I think we just send our troops over, and when GS sees them, they'll figure it out pretty quick. And, I feel, we should not attack them first under any circumstances. If they really are trying to play a game of WW overload, let's force them to be the aggressor and have to deal with the consequences. Even if it means we have to put a wall of units around a GoW resource or something, let's make sure they know we understand how the game works, too

	24-08-2003 22:42									#292
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

Wholeheartedly agreed about not making any proclamations. I am just sick of the debates in the public forum. Just send the units over and do the job.

As for the WW stuff... let's handle that when the time comes. With Bach's and later maybe Sistine's, we should not be all that pressed for happiness...

	03-10-2003 04:29									#293
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

Sharpe and I have been discussing what to research after Music Theory. Banking and Chemistry look like the best bets, and Banking is the more useful of the two; but GS may still be researching it for all we know. I think we should PM them, state we're trying to decide what to research, and ask if they're still going to research Banking or if we should do it.

This also helps keep our relations open. I think we need to get GS to research Invention ASAP. That way we can sell them Gunpowder once they're off Bob.

	03-10-2003 09:45									#294
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Huh? I thought we wanted to trigger our GA with Magellan's and start building frigates?

Though perhaps building the wonder will take more than researching 2 techs, so we can go for Banking and Navigation only after that. Nevertheless, we want frigates. Besides, how many banks would we build in the next 10 or 20 turns?

	03-10-2003 10:06									#295
	Inflate your Upload Space

Yes, I believe Magellan's was decided upon by the team. Does anyone wish to change that plan?

	03-10-2003 11:58									#296
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by asleepathewheel Also keep in mind our intergroup discussions on the RP war. Had RP not approached us, we likely would have moved to capture some outposts on Eastern Bob from them. Thus we had many knights within boarding range of our fleet. Our invasion force became a defensive force. Convenient, eh?

They are just defending RP. Riiiight

	03-10-2003 14:04									#297
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

quote: Originally posted by Kloreep Sharpe and I have been discussing what to research after Music Theory. Banking and Chemistry look like the best bets, and Banking is the more useful of the two; but GS may still be researching it for all we know. I think we should PM them, state we're trying to decide what to research, and ask if they're still going to research Banking or if we should do it. This also helps keep our relations open. I think we need to get GS to research Invention ASAP. That way we can sell them Gunpowder once they're off Bob.

OK, couple of comments:

1) While I fully support the Magellan's trigger and GA in ~30 turns, I am not all that sure that Navigation is THE obvious choice for the next research goal - as we can easily do both Banking and Navigation before Magellan's build would be done.

The benefit of Navigation is that our ships would not have to care about avoiding ocean. The benefit of Banking is that we could build banks... of these two, I believe the first one is better, though. I do not see many cities able to build banks yet (read: many cities with marketplaces), plus we still devote much of our shield production to military builds in those that could build banks. OTOH, our caravels DO have to sail around oceans...

I would not include Chemistry in the list, as Chemistry gives no immediate bonus effect and puts us closer to Military Tradition (which we are not so eager to rush to).

So, eventually, I would still go for Navigation, even if Banking is not all that bad either.

2) I bet my last dime that GS is NOT researching banking. They are not fools. They know they need Invention (& Gunpowder) and they know they are not getting it from us, nor, Voxes, nor RPers, nor their enemies. So they must be going for Invention now - the only question is at what rate.

3) While it may be necessary to provide GS with gunpowder and saltpeter at a (much) later date, that moment would still be very far in the future. Just read the recent alliance chatlog, with a 14-knight GS stack approaching Alamo... I am not overly concerned about GoW and ND falling to GS now, but I would certainly hesitate to consider their eventual victory "imminent".

4) I kinda prefer to NOT maintain contact with GS at this time... the more we talk, the more we may inadvertently disclose (by refusing or avoiding to answer questions or just slipping...). We made it clear we didn't support their extensive involvement in the Bobian war and there is little need to suggest otherwise. They have nothing we need, we have nothing they can buy. So, let's leave it at that. If it ever comes to us aligning with them rather than our current allies, it will be a mutual interest - we will need them just like they will need us (if for nothing else, then because of the saltpeter).

	03-10-2003 14:55									#298
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

I agree we have nothing really to talk to GS about, and they are aware of our position towards them and so can't expect much dialogue.

It might however, be worthwhile to pop them a message asking if theres anything they want to discuss/keeping the diplo channels open and that sort of thing.

	03-10-2003 15:14									#299
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

Regarding the diplo contact, I agree with Radek. There is no need to help GS in any way until we are sure they've lost the war, so what should we talk about then?
All what ND+GoW will have after this war (that is far from being over) is a lot of land, that must be settled, and no infrastructure, while GS has the most powerful economy and we have a chance against them on the long run only because a) our teritorry is bigger and b) they are wasteing a lot of resources on this war.

Why should we give them anything ? What difference does Invetion make? If we decide to side them we can gift/sell them Invention and the very next turn Gunpowder.

I'd support a no-talk policy for now. Actually we should be happy that they aren't asking us anything right now, because I don't know what would be asnwering to certain inconvenient questions.

Last edited by Tiberius on 03-10-2003 at 15:20

	04-10-2003 03:53									#300
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

Well our furs for dyes trade is up soon - we should renew that.

I think that we should at least find out if they have banking and to see if we can trade for it.

I disagree with a no-talk policy - do we really expect them to agree to ally with us if we are invaded if we maintain this diplomatic silence? I frankly doubt it - they may be sorely tempted to tell us to jump into a nearby lake and try to make a deal with one of the Bob civs...

Besides, right now we are not at war with either GS or RP - so there is no reason not to talk to them - we just need to keep in mind what we don't want to talk to them about ...

Last edited by Sharpe on 04-10-2003 at 04:07