24-06-2003 17:02									#211
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I'm not curious about the GS map, so I don't see why would we buy it. They apparently need money (huge military probably, and GA over) but why should I care?

The Edu propoal is interesting and two-bladed.
First, the negative side: GS would be back in the research business. They could go for banking and then Economics with its nice wonder and the road to Democracy would be open, too.

The plus side: we would receive a nice amount of money for rushes and upgrades. But how much? Their GNP is higher than ours, so probably around 200. Even after corruption and troops maintenance, I suppose 100 should remain on 0% research. So, with us slowing down to 40% research, that's probably 6 turns until Edu. 6 x 100 / 2 = 300 gold. Not bad, but less than that is not really worth it.
Honestly, considering how much we invested is Edu so far and how expensive it is, we should ask for more gold, unless no-whoring clauses would assure us good trades with others. But let's not push it. Even 300 is unlikely to be accepted, IMO.

	24-06-2003 17:19									#212
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I would consider a combined deal - Edu for gold and their map. I have only one concern regarding the Edu trade - and that is: I do not want them to go for Music Theory right after getting Edu from us, trying to build Bach's.

However, that's highly unlikely - by "wasting time" on a dead-end, only-good-for-a-wonder tech, they would be out of the research race soon again. I do believe they'd go for Banking - and that is just fine with me. We go for Astronomy and trade it for Banking, letting GS go for Economics and get Adam Smith's... we cannot get ALL the medieval wonders and A.S.'s is one I would be fine to waive in favour of Magellan's.

So, considering we could get some fine money (agreed on we should ask for about 200-300 gold) to upgrade our horses to knights sooner, I would not oppose the idea. And speaking of the map... I am a bit curious, since I would like to know what their production potential is.

I would start with Edu for 250 gold and their map, going down no lower than 200 gold and their map, if they try to bargain.

But let's see what they come up with.

	24-06-2003 17:38									#213
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We could combine this trade with a Banking for Astronomy deal, to make it more attractive.

Given the fact that Astronomy is more expensive than Banking with 100 beakers, I say let's ask for Banking + 300 gold ( + maybe their WM ) and offer Edu + Astronomy.

One more thing, not really related to GS: after the Cathedral, let's start in Legopolis the Sistine Chappel and switch to Bach's only in the last turn (I'm not sure about the shield value, though; are they the same?). Even better: start with a university, change to Sistine and in the end change to Bach's.

	24-06-2003 17:54									#214
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quote: Originally posted by Tiberius We could combine this trade with a Banking for Astronomy deal, to make it more attractive. Given the fact that Astronomy is more expensive than Banking with 100 beakers, I say let's ask for Banking + 300 gold ( + maybe their WM ) and offer Edu + Astronomy.

Now, that's a good idea! This would be a sufficient guarantee that they go for Banking, leaving us free to go for Astronomy and Music Theory afterwards. I will be sure to mention this to DeepO or Arrian.

quote: Originally posted by Tiberius One more thing, not really related to GS: after the Cathedral, let's start in Legopolis the Sistine Chappel and switch to Bach's only in the last turn (I'm not sure about the shield value, though; are they the same?). Even better: start with a university, change to Sistine and in the end change to Bach's.

Yes, starting with Uni will definitely be the plan (we do have some experience in faking our real wonder build intentions ...hehe, paraphrasing your line form the RP thread). Fortunately, both Sistine's and Bach's are 600 shield wonders.

	24-06-2003 20:55									#215
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I acknowledged the receipt of the message, making it clear using Sistine's as a wonder prebuild is no problem with us and throwing in the Astronomy for Banking idea. Let's see what they think of it... let's keep building our relations with GS.

quote: Hello, DeepO! We are happy to see you happy about the deal. And - using the Sistine's Chapel as a prebuild for another wonder is definitely not a problem with us at all. Just a quick idea, not really official, but may be good to consider... discussing our chat from last night with my teammates today, it seems we'd not mind selling Edu to you, if the price in gold is right - we would probably be looking for roughly half of what you can save by going 100% tax until we finish researching Edu (~6 turns to go, it seems)... dunno how much that would actually be, so I'll leave determining the figure up to you. Let's hope it will be enough to make it a fine deal for us, too... not sure how many retiring soldiers you have to pay these days... But - the idea... to make the deal even more attractive for you, we might discount this amount by the value of your WM (~40-50 gold) AND couple it with a fine future tech deal. What about prearranging a trade where we would provide you with Astronomy in exchange for Banking? Astronomy is slightly more expensive beaker-wise, so this might be an additional sweetener for you... just an idea. We do not want Bobians to become too strong, do we? So we better help each other, I guess... Regards, vondrack

	24-06-2003 23:13									#216
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And a rather vague response from DeepO:

quote: Thanks Vondrack, As to the Edu deal: I certainly will propose it to my team. However, on a personal note, I'm not sure we would be willing to disclose our exact gold income, I hope you can appreciate this... openness has it limits But, as a start of a proposal it certainly counts, let me find out how much we can invest... it will depend on a few details, I assume you would be interesting in a 20-turn NDA, leaving you as the sole provider for Edu to other nations, after all, you did the research, even if we 'helped'. Allow me to discuss this in our forum, I'll get back to you asap. As to prearranging a Astronomy / banking swap: I think this certainly has a good chance of succeeding. However, we're still not sure what to research next, even if it was said a couple of times that tech for tech deals are maybe the only way to get decent prices for our research. I think we would welcome all good proposals here, and would be willing to adapt quite a bit to other teams, if it wouldn't cost us as dearly as the Feudalism fiasco. So, for how much I have any power in these matters (I'm just one of many voices ), these proposals are very interesting, and can at least lead to good deals for both sides. I assure you they will get the attention they deserve. kind regards, DeepO

	25-06-2003 02:00									#217
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What a well worded response from DeepO. He commited to nothing, opened several escape routes, and vaguely suggested that GS is doing us a favor.

Oh well, so goes politics. I think we will get a resonable deal from them.

	25-06-2003 02:14									#218
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In the end, it's the deals that really count...

Wonder how long it'll take RP to figure that out.

	26-06-2003 10:26									#219
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DeepO's proposal:

quote: Vondrack, I'm sorry, I have very little time atm (some friends are nagging me to stop typing and go out with them), so my apologies if I miss some things here. We discussed the Edu deal on our forum, and response has been very positive. So, would you be interested in receiving 180 gold + our WM as a future payment for Education? If you approve, I'm sure we can send payment this turn (we still hold the save). This should be about what you expected, but if not, let us know. This includes a 20-turn NDA, and a future banking / astronomy swap (again with 20-turn NDAs) (sorry to not be able to more formally formulate this due to time-constraints). Further, we were thinking on a way of not cutting into each other's profits, that even if the 20-turn NDA expires, we share profits from the sale of each other's techs. This is still a rough idea, so possibly a chat could more accurately outline something that is beneficial to both of us. If we could agree on this soon, we should be able to do this also for Education, in case you would not be able to sell it to Bob if war breaks out. In order to be faster, could you (also) send a response to Arrian and nye? This evening, they should be around to handle further negotiations, including a formal ratification. I can't check the forum before tomorrow... my apologies. Kind regards, DeepO

	26-06-2003 10:51									#220
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I'd say 180 gold is a bit under what I would be happy with. Considering we know they have more than 212 commerce (see the Next turn thread for my findings), I would assume they should be able to save ~100 gold per turn... which gives 600 gold over 6 turns, half of which is 300 minus 50 for the map is 250 gold.

Even with some discount from our side, I would still be looking for ~230. So, I would like to see 50 more gold thrown into the deal from their side. Here is what I responded to DeepO:

quote: DeepO, Sorry - I was AFK since ~6pm my time yesterday - got your PM only this morning. Honestly - 180 gold is less than what we were hoping for. If (180+50)*2/6=~80 gpt is all what is left after paying your upkeep costs, then... well, we feel for you. 230 gold for Education is... hm... let's say, we'd be EXTREMELY happy to buy Edu for 230 gold ourselves, that's for sure. I am posting your PM in our forum to see what other Legos think. Possible adjustments I can think of now: delaying the discovery of Edu so that you have 1-2 extra turns to save a bit more cash or postponing a small part of the payment (above the sum you offered) until the Astro/Bank swap. Either way - I do not think this must be finalized until we are really close to discovering Education - we should have at least 2-3 turns to come up with more ideas. We do not ask for any "prepayments" and we can certainly wait few more turns for your map, so there is no need to hold the save just to have the deal finalized with us. Even though we will most probably want to add something to the deal, I hope we are not far from reaching a compromise acceptable for both sides. I hope to be able to get back to you very soon. Regards, vondrack

My suggestions how to counter this proposal:

1) offer to delay the discovery of Education for 1-2 turns, allowing them to save more cash, paying 50 more gold.
2) add a 50 gold balance to the Astro/Bank swap.

Note: and let's keep in mind we have never even tried to negotiate the price of their map, which they set to 50 gold (and it was made quite clear it's not the least they would agree with).

	26-06-2003 11:11									#221
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This is not very generous, to say the least. Considering the difference between astronomy and banking, the proposal makes Edu a very cheap tech. It is true that they are offering their WM, but that's not very important for us.
We know that their GNP is bigger than 215. We are paying/losing roughly 100 gold for corruption and maintenance (both buildings and army). (I don't have a save here, so correct me if I'm wrong) Let's say that they are losing 100, too (more troops but less corruption). It is still 100+ gpt. But they can put aside only 180 gold in 5 turns! Sure

Besides we have the upper hand here, I think. They need money and in the same time have nothing to research right now, without wasting beakers.

For the sake of a good relations with GS (and future tech trades) I'd settle on 200-250, but no less. Honestly I'd prefer to let them reseach Edu on their own just to teach them a lesson.

Edit: ahh, crossposted with Radek

	26-06-2003 11:18									#222
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Btw, I was thinking to delay Edu with one turn, anyway. We'd save some cash, with or without the GS deal.
I'll check the save at home, to see the options.

	26-06-2003 15:08									#223
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Another follow-up from DeepO:

quote: Vondrack, I can imagine your surprise... it is as we thought. We might be able too sweeten the deal on your side a bit, however we did not lie to you about our income. Don't forget we had no time to build marketplaces, and our military is quite possibly double or triple yours. The Vox war has cost us a lot... we're recuperating though, but it will take time. But, one (personal) remark about pricing: with a 20-turn NDA, and even a commitment of us to not profit from Edu even after the NDA would have been finished, you can't expect that we pay half your beaker cost in gold... you have 4 more buyers, and the second-researcher cost is already lower... don't get me wrong, I'm sure we can up the price (a little), but don't expect miracles As to delaying Education (or payment): that shouldn't be needed. As long as we can reach an agreement before you run out of cash, we should be able to fulfill our part of the deal. While we would have hoped to have higher cash reserves (a lot higher cash reserves ), we're not broke... kind regards, DeepO

Now... thinking about it... I believe noone here is going to suspect me of too much sympathy to the GS' cause... but I believe they are not lying... at least no too much. 180g was the first offer - and as they admit, they are ready to up the price a bit.

I believe that the gross national product (GNP) we can sort of guesstimate from the F11 screen may be a little bit misleading - considering their cities are pop-maxxed, I believe they (unlike us) have to spend some money on the luxury slider. Not too much, but quite probably more than 0%. Their military must be, no doubt, at least twice as large as ours. Their corruption, that's true, lower. So, let's say they have GNP of 220-230, corruption takes 15-20% (our corruption is 25% on average, and that's with the courthouse in Karina)... that's 176-196. We have 45 units, they may very well have 90, that I would believe. Add in a couple of city improvements and - net 80 gold need not be far from the truth.

So, as much as I am no fan of GS, I tend to believe they are not playing tricks here, not much - it's the absolute price we would be getting that is not fully adequate, not the fact they'd be trying to get it for less than we said we would be looking for (1/2 of what they'd be able to save before we discover Edu).

As DeepO clearly says they would prefer us not delaying the discovery of Edu, so I would suggest the following:

Let's ask GS to throw additional 50 gold into the deal, payable at the moment we swap Astronomy and Banking.

The deal then would be:

1) 180 gold & their WM at the moment we deliver Edu
2) 50 gold & at the moment we swap Banking and Astro

This is still quite generous from our side (and we should make it clear we're doing this as a "favour" to a team we consider our natural long-term "ally" against the combined power of Bob) and still nets us a fairly good amount of gold (considering the map worth 50g, which is just about right, I think, even if we have no strong urge to acquire it, 280g for Education is not that bad).

Note, please, that throughout the negotiations with DeepO, I was deliberately giving a slightly later ETA on the Edu research completion (by about 1 turn), so we can still slightly slow our research, making some money ourselves.

	26-06-2003 15:12									#224
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And a side-remark: it seems GS believes we must be running a deficit budget, possibly being low on cash reserves - if not, I then don't understand DeepO's line about the "agreement being reached before we run out of cash".

Let them believe that...

	26-06-2003 17:28									#225
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What you should explain to DeepO in a possible future chat about this matter is that we don't expect them to pay half the cost of Edu, but half the money they make parking their research slider on 0. There's a huge difference. Should they have a 90 gpt net income, it means they are aquiring Edu from us at the cost of 2 turns of no-research !! (3 if the net income is as low as 60 gpt) and this not even considering the beaker difference between Banking and Astronomy. Whatever they may say, this is almost a gift.

quote: The deal then would be: 1) 180 gold & their WM at the moment we deliver Edu 2) 50 gold & at the moment we swap Banking and Astro

I'd agree with that. The fact that they agree not to resell Edu to others is indeed a sweetener.

	27-06-2003 02:04									#226
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quote: The deal then would be: 1) 180 gold & their WM at the moment we deliver Edu 2) 50 gold & at the moment we swap Banking and Astro

	27-06-2003 08:09									#227
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I agree with this deal

	27-06-2003 12:06									#228
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OK, we seem to be happy asking for just 50 more gold. Here goes my PM to DeepO (just sending it):

quote: Hello, DeepO! quote: I can imagine your surprise... it is as we thought. We might be able too sweeten the deal on your side a bit, however we did not lie to you about our income. Don't forget we had no time to build marketplaces, and our military is quite possibly double or triple yours. The Vox war has cost us a lot... we're recuperating though, but it will take time. It was not we wouldn't believe your words - it was that the amount of gold looked... well... we're speaking here about Education, costing over 1000 beakers to research... would you be happy to sell it for ~230 gold (and that's with the map being valued at 50 gold)? Just remember how much you asked for Feudalism, which was more than 25% cheaper to research... plus, selling you Education for gold at this moment definitely involves many strategic aspects on both sides. quote: But, one (personal) remark about pricing: with a 20-turn NDA, and even a commitment of us to not profit from Edu even after the NDA would have been finished, you can't expect that we pay half your beaker cost in gold... you have 4 more buyers, and the second-researcher cost is already lower... don't get me wrong, I'm sure we can up the price (a little), but don't expect miracles I hope we do not expect miracles , but upping the price a bit is definitely the way to go. Discussing the deal in our forum, there seems to be a proposal having a solid support. Basically, it would be like this: 1) 180 gold & your WM at the moment we deliver Edu (we shall discover Edu on - and this is now a solid ETA - our Turn 121, in 150BC, so you would receive it on your Turn 122, in 130 BC) 2) 50 gold at the moment we swap Banking and Astro (which we assume would be the next research goals for you and us) 20-turn or eternal NDAs (your choice) on all techs involved. So, the only difference compared to your proposal is 50 extra gold payable on the Bank/Astro switch (not really to balance the Bank/Astro switch itself, but to balance the deal as a whole). Would this be okay with you? If yes, I will send a paragraphed version at your request (just state your preference re: NDAs). Best regards, vondrack

	27-06-2003 14:02									#229
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DeepO has been quick to respond:

quote: Vondrack, Sorry, very little time today at work, but it looks we'll be getting there. I'll post your message on our board, and see what the others think. I don't have clearance to accept this deal, it's above what we previously agreed to, so it's going to need another poll (Democracy, democracy, *sigh* ) You're right with the comparison to Feud, which was the same one we made: we asked 25% of the first researcher cost, which should become some 270 for Edu. However, as was so painfully proven, our deal only came with a 10-turn NDA, and made future trade possible... which is why we value Edu less. But, granted, we want Edu, and you were in no hurry to acquire Feud (well, you didn't either ). If at all possible, I'd like to postpone the discussion on mutual profit after NDA for this weekend (Sunday chat?), we've got a couple of ideas, but nothing final yet, and would love to hear your take on things. Main idea is that we don't become competitors on techs which we cooperated on. However, we don't want to limit trade with other teams either... so eternal NDAs will probably be undesirable. For the moment, let's assume 20-turn classic NDAs. Thanks for the exact Eta, it will surely help in planning. Also here are some points we'd like to discuss on Sunday: a couple of times it was raised in our forum that faster research isn't always the best, certainly not when war would break out on Bob. Maybe we shouldn't speed along too fast (I received some comments from trying to speed research on edu, and indeed, while there are a number of advantages, there are also disadvs involved) It looks like Sunday's chat is again going to become a busy one, in the mean time, I'll see what I can do to meet your price. You'll hear from me soon, kind regards, DeepO

So, let's see what happens... I would not want to make this a sour experience for either of us, so if they ask for 10-20 less gold, I would say "what the hell... if you can't pay more, have it for whatever you can pay - just keep in mind we did you a favour". But I think they will take it eventually.

	27-06-2003 14:29									#230
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Keeping the phone lines busy.

quote: DeepO, quote: Sorry, very little time today at work, but it looks we'll be getting there. I'll post your message on our board, and see what the others think. I don't have clearance to accept this deal, it's above what we previously agreed to, so it's going to need another poll (Democracy, democracy, *sigh* ) No problem - as indicated by the Edu ETA in my previous PM, we do have a couple of turns to finalize the deal. No need for any prepayments, so as long as we agree on the terms at least on the turn we discover Edu (T121), there will be no delay. quote: You're right with the comparison to Feud, which was the same one we made: we asked 25% of the first researcher cost, which should become some 270 for Edu. However, as was so painfully proven, our deal only came with a 10-turn NDA, and made future trade possible... which is why we value Edu less. But, granted, we want Edu, and you were in no hurry to acquire Feud (well, you didn't either ). Precisely 275 gold . Keep in mind, please, that there is another difference of 96 beakers between Astronomy & Banking in our favour (would equal to 24 gold, using the 25% math, bringing the "total" to 299 gold), plus we haven't even tried to negotiate the price of or completely omit your WM from the trade. quote: If at all possible, I'd like to postpone the discussion on mutual profit after NDA for this weekend (Sunday chat?), we've got a couple of ideas, but nothing final yet, and would love to hear your take on things. Main idea is that we don't become competitors on techs which we cooperated on. However, we don't want to limit trade with other teams either... so eternal NDAs will probably be undesirable. For the moment, let's assume 20-turn classic NDAs. Fine with us. Using the term "eternal NDA" I meant any future resales would have to be negotiated separately - not that we would exclude the possibility of resales once forever. I can sure imagine there would be a situation you'd be able to strike a deal, while we would be not or vice versa - and it would of course be foolish to insist on NDAs then. quote: Thanks for the exact Eta, it will surely help in planning. Also here are some points we'd like to discuss on Sunday: a couple of times it was raised in our forum that faster research isn't always the best, certainly not when war would break out on Bob. Maybe we shouldn't speed along too fast (I received some comments from trying to speed research on edu, and indeed, while there are a number of advantages, there are also disadvs involved) This will most probably not be a major problem. We are not researching as fast as we could be anyway. We do realize that being too far ahead has its disadvantages, too. Best regards, vondrack

	02-07-2003 12:03									#231
	Remove this text

Finally, the draft from DeepO:

quote: Hello Vondrack, I'm sorry this message got delayed, I couldn't get into 'poly yesterday, when I had time to write the draft. Further, even if it is a draft, we've ratified it. Normally, there shouldn't be any problem on your side, if there is, please let me know and I'll adjust, and ask for re-ratifying it in GS... quote: Lego-GS Education and future tech deal 1. Gathering Storm agrees to buy Education from Legoland, at the price of 230 gold + their World Map. The 230 gold and WM will be given to Lego as soon as this deal is ratified. Lego will give Education as soon as they discover it. 2. GS agrees to a 20-turn NDA on Education, a period during which they will not sell or give Education to any other team. Moreover, GS agrees to not selll this tech even after the NDA has expired, without consent from Legoland (and a possible discussion on shared profits) 3. Once education has been traded, GS will start researching Banking, while Legoland will start researching Astronomy. Once these techs are discovered, they will be swapped as equal (even if Astronomy is slightly more expensive). These techs also come with a 20-turn NDA. 4. Future discussion is needed to agree on a possible 'mutual profit' scheme for banking / astronomy, where the 20-tun NDA could be replaced with a more complicated agreement, in order to ensure both party's profit after NDAs would run out. 5. Further, future discussion is needed on the timing of these techs, so that both GS and Legoland have the best chance of distributing these techs after discovery. Possibly this will result in a common ETA for both techs, delayed from the fastest ETA (for one tech). 6. After Banking is discovered, GS has the right to start on Economics, where Lego promises to research something else. GS could waive this right later, if situations change. However, they will keep Legoland informed if this would happen, so that Lego can respond in time. 7. Both parties agree that the spirit of this agreement is most important, not the exact wording. If loopholes, or possible problems would appear later, negotiations should commence to try to iron out possible conflicts before they occur. I hope this fits your hopes of this deal, kind regards, DeepO

I would say this is one of the better treaties we have been offered (well written). And actually, we are getting more than we asked for - GS will pay 230g upon the ratification of this treaty (that is quite generous), agrees to not mess with our own research (Banking, then most probably Economy), and agrees to not resell Edu without our consent. What more could we ask for?

Could it be that GS learnt something about diplomacy and trading...?

	02-07-2003 13:18									#232
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Sounds good.

	02-07-2003 17:50									#233
	Increase Your PM Length

I have no problem with the treaty.

	02-07-2003 20:46									#234
	Increase Your PM Length

Wow, what happen to the cool hard stratigists we once knew, did they learn something about dealing with people?

	02-07-2003 20:48									#235
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

This treat looks excellent to me. I will send a note to DeepO considering it signed, assuming no one has any objections.

	02-07-2003 23:26									#236
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Looks great.

	03-07-2003 01:22									#237
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Just nitpicking: who is signing it in behalf of GS?

	07-07-2003 05:46									#238
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Spoke with DeepO: they will be sending the money and WM next turn. I will send Edu as unnaccepted this turn, waiting for the actual receipt of said money.

	08-07-2003 04:20									#239
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Sorry - I had promised to post this, but later forgot to.

quote: Session Start: Sun Jul 06 23:13:45 2003 Session Ident: Shiber vondrack: just a question... Shiber: shoot vondrack: we will have Edu ready this turn or one turn later Shiber: congratulations vondrack: I guess you were supposed to send the payment "after the treaty was ratified" vondrack: but we have not received anything yet vondrack: even though there was at least one, maybe two turns... Shiber: It's in our next turn thread, we will send it when we get the save vondrack: ok, fine vondrack: we will send Edu as soon as we have it then vondrack: and one more bit of info: vondrack: not sure if Voxes told you Shiber: vondrack, we only recently received confirmation from your team that the deal has been ratified Shiber: Yes, now I see that ZargonX sent a confirmation message "Signed, ZargonX" after we played the previous turn. Shiber: Oh, sorry for interrupting you vondrack: ah, ok... I did not know it was so recently... vondrack: so: The New Voice vondrack: we delayed its foundation by three turns (too many barbs around) vondrack: so it will be founded vondrack: on the next turn (122, I think) vondrack: this turn, units move to the destination tile vondrack: next turn, the city will be founded and handed over to Vox Shiber: OK, that doesn't sound like it'll be a problem though. But thanks for letting me know. vondrack: we have been able to bring in more escorts, so we do not expect any more delays now vondrack: ok vondrack: well - won't keep you any longer then vondrack: good night! Shiber: OK, good night sweetie vondrack: vondrack: bye Session Close: Sun Jul 06 23:21:02 2003

	08-07-2003 04:48									#240
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D'oh. I was hoping it got through to them before they played the turn. I had sent it originally right before the holiday, but (as is common these days) something was screwy with 'poly. I wasn't sure if it went through or not, and I guess the first one obviously didn't.