17-07-2003 06:41									#241
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Well, with the situation on Bob, it's probably time we discuss with GS their view of the situation. As the off-Bobers, we still have a stake in all this. Vondrack, have you chatted with any of them lately? Between the two of us, I'm sure we can catch one of them in a chat room at some point (if poly's chat ever works again, that is...)

	17-07-2003 15:02									#242
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quote: Originally posted by Tiberius Radek, I don't really understand your reasoning. So us proposing the trade is not OK (though it would give us ~ 10 shields and 10 commerce per turn) but them proposing the trade would be acceptable? This doesn't make sense: it is either useful or is not. If it is useful we could propose it or, if it isn't, we shouldn't accept it.

The reasoning WAS (see below) that if they proposed the deal, its RELATIVE disadvantage (relative disadvantage = more of an advantage for GS than for us) for us would be too small to justify being "difficult to trade with" - so we'd better be easy and take it. BUT as I thought the deal would be helping them more than us, I thought there was no reason to propose it on our own. Forget Bobians ATM, they are second league, there are only two true world powers - us and GS... and I do not really think it is going to change in the foreseeable future.

BUT:

Forget everything what I said - I missed one important thing which occured to me only yesterday. I counted the pop points of GS in their "core" area (approximately S of Diss'ville). 95 pop points - that means they can work 95 tiles max. After "assigning" their pop points to tiles they have available, I found out they are almost at their theoretical maximum. Less than 5 useful land tiles left, I think, plus some coastal ones. Which means that more (happy/content) pop will not help them as much as I thought it would, since they will have no fine tiles to assign the new pop points to.

BTW - their 95 pop points is about 30% more than the 72 pop points of ours. Considering they have almost all their tiles fully improved and that we are working almost exclusively only fully improved tiles, too, I believe their economy has about 30% higher output than ours, at the moment.

So - in the light of this information, scrap what I said about not actively proposing a lux deal with GS. Even if they used it to raise the pop in all their cities that are, in theory, able to, they would still get roughly the same surplus output as us ('cause we have more and better tiles to work with the extra pop).

	17-07-2003 21:29									#243
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BTW, Tibi, you said it VERY well in the public thread.

That post about the GS 'code of honour'.

(and kudos to Deepo for his reaction)

	17-07-2003 21:33									#244
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quote: Originally posted by ZargonX Well, with the situation on Bob, it's probably time we discuss with GS their view of the situation. As the off-Bobers, we still have a stake in all this. Vondrack, have you chatted with any of them lately? Between the two of us, I'm sure we can catch one of them in a chat room at some point (if poly's chat ever works again, that is...)

DeepO asked for a chat this evening - to "compare notes" on Bobian affairs. Will report and post the log later on.

	17-07-2003 21:52									#245
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When and where? (the chat)
Should it take place after 8 PM GMT, I could (and wish) to participate, if that's not a problem.

Edit: Poly went down after my post so I suppose there wasn't any chat. Maybe today.

Last edited by Tiberius on 18-07-2003 at 10:13

	18-07-2003 16:12									#246
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Oops, sorry, Tibi - haven't had a chance to read your post 'cause of the poly being down. DeepO emailed me and we met at Undernet. Here is the log:

quote: Session Start: Thu Jul 17 22:02:37 2003 Session Ident: #LeuvenV * Now talking in #LeuvenV vondrack: hello! DeepO: hi there! DeepO: let me see if I can lure some of GS in here * SirRalph has joined #LeuvenV DeepO: maybe someone will join later DeepO: vondrack: hello, Sir Ralph! SirRalph: hello DeepO: okay... let's get this started vondrack: k DeepO: first of all, I'm sorry for missing last events DeepO: rl, and 'poly.. vondrack: np DeepO: but I felt we needed to chat, certainly with th current war DeepO: main reason is that it means we won't have anyone buying techs vondrack: true * nye has joined #LeuvenV DeepO: so... do we race along, taking a lead, or back off a little, saving cash? nye: allo vondrack: heya, nye! nye: hi, vonD DeepO: largely this depends on what you want... vondrack: we have not discussed that too much, but we lean towards racing along, I believe DeepO: we can use the cash, to be honest DeepO: okay DeepO: so do you have any idea of a favorable ETA? vondrack: just as with you, once we have our land railroaded and arty stocked, we will feel safe DeepO: and do we want to keep techs from the others in the mean time? DeepO: true DeepO: (I mean to RR) vondrack: if there is nothing they can offer, probably yes DeepO: that would include Vox, though... DeepO: not sure what your standing on that is vondrack: you mean that we would not trade techs to them either? DeepO: well.. we still consider them sort of a risk DeepO: given our history vondrack: vondrack: we hope for a different history ) DeepO: so... racing along, keeping techs should be some kind of mutual thing, ideally vondrack: honestly - this is a bit difficult to generalize about vondrack: as I said DeepO: ? vondrack: as long as there is something we can get for our techs vondrack: something valuable vondrack: we are open for trade DeepO: like lux, or NAPs? vondrack: but we seek something valuable in return vondrack: like lux, yes DeepO: I can imagine... vondrack: I do not care about NAPs too much vondrack: you read my posts in the public forum DeepO: but who would you trade it from? DeepO: I did, and I agree DeepO: but don't want to say to much in public DeepO: last time, that left me nowhere, and damaged the group vondrack: heh, right... vondrack: I myself should sometimes better shut up DeepO: the problem is, that for the next 10 turns or so, it is very hard to see who would be stable enough on Bob DeepO: as NAPs don't mean much, there is no way of knowing where this war is going to end DeepO: it looks like RP is on the receiving end, so dealing with them is not so easily DeepO: but OTOH, they could very well get GoW or ND to backstab eachother DeepO: we feel very wary of trades for the moment DeepO: we have some lux deals laid out DeepO: and I don't think we'll likely get more... or others DeepO: also, we don't think a situation where Bob is divided in 2 civs is good for us DeepO: so we're trying to see how we can stabilize them DeepO: keep 3 civs on Bob, or at least have 2 battered up civs splitting the continent DeepO: but again... this is very tricky, and if possible, we would want to chat with you about where you want to go DeepO: so that we can adjust plans... vondrack: right, 3-civ Bob is best, agreed vondrack: but that is not likely to happen vondrack: one of them will go, sooner or later DeepO: yes... but we (Lego-GS) can perhaps time them going vondrack: RPers made themsleves a target by never keeping their promises DeepO: true... vondrack: yes... at least, we can try DeepO: the thing is, do we want to? nye: vonD, are there any conditions that Lego would intervene outside of Legoland? vondrack: in the foreseeable future, NO vondrack: we are bound by a treaty nye: with both nd and gow? vondrack: nope, just one of them vondrack: but covers the whole of Bob nye: it keeps you off bob entirely? vondrack: yes nye: wow. how long does it last? vondrack: just a sec, must check that vondrack: damn, I cannot - poly is down DeepO: again vondrack: I think for like 30 turns at least nye: it is ok. would you intervene after that? nye: or be inclined to even look at the possibility vondrack: maybe, maybe not - whatever I say now would be even less than "informal speculations" nye: that is all it could be vondrack: well, all that "builder stuff" is just plain nonsense, you know vondrack: if we believe it is time to strike, we will DeepO: so.. you want to invade us? vondrack: LoL vondrack: sure - there is no treaty preventing us nye: oh oh vondrack: nye: nye: ok. a 2 civ bob is a... concern vondrack: well... if there is a 2 civ Bob, we would have to seriously consider our 'peacenik' strategy, that is for sure DeepO: I wonder, even if you have a 'no invading Bob' deal DeepO: does that mean you are at extremely good grounds with that civ? DeepO: in that you would favour them over any of the others? vondrack: no, I would not say it that way vondrack: it was a deal we made when there was an opportunity DeepO: okay... so you wouldn't mind if we possibly intervened? DeepO: (very hypotehtically speaking, of course) vondrack: hmmm... that's a question I haven't anticipated, honestly... DeepO: well... we share concerns about a 2-civ Bob DeepO: and while there are a couple of options to keep them from getting there DeepO: war is one of them... vondrack: I guess we would not feel any need to get involved vondrack: though this is mostly my personal feeling vondrack: this was never discussed in our forum DeepO: also not by e.g. giving loans to one team in need? vondrack: ah, that's something different DeepO: well.. this is completely of the record here DeepO: this certainly is not something we are decided on vondrack: no treaty prevents us from doing business with Bobians DeepO: but it would be my job as an ambassador to know what you think of this DeepO: business.. yes... but at what cost? vondrack: well, let me put it this way: DeepO: and can we complement each other here DeepO: go ahead vondrack: there is VERY little love between us and the team in danger vondrack: but even if we do not like them, we do not like the idea of a 2-civ Bob either DeepO: it's not that we like RP... but it might be necessary vondrack: so we may forget our dislikes temporarily vondrack: and lend a hand if it improves the chances of a prolonged war of attrition on Bob DeepO: agreed... we're in the same situation, sort of vondrack: yes, it seems so DeepO: well... I'm thinking on options here DeepO: one of them is to keep RP alive until we could trade Chivalry to them vondrack: so - we may happen to end up helping, economically, a team that would normally be the last one to receive our help vondrack: sigh DeepO: but in this case, they need money DeepO: I feel your pain vondrack: vondrack: yes, they do need money nye: i must go. nice to see you vonD. DeepO: bye nye vondrack: take care, nye! * nye has left #LeuvenV vondrack: have they contacted you, asking for help? DeepO: sort of... but not with too much fire DeepO: they know our relation, of course DeepO: did they contact you? vondrack: yes, they did DeepO: it seems Togas is rallying all the help they can get DeepO: they probably contacted Vox as well DeepO: seeing if they can offer a loan vondrack: DeepO: talking about options: the other option for us would be to go to Bob ourselves DeepO: but already, we're not easily defended DeepO: and we can miss any ganging up on us vondrack: I doubt the time would be right NOW for you vondrack: you could actually unite them against you DeepO: probably yes DeepO: although it is hard to see how good their relations are, even at war vondrack: btw - have you sold your map to anyone else? DeepO: yes we did... DeepO: didn't I tell you? DeepO: I think you got the better deal, though DeepO: as you were one turn later DeepO: getting all the other maps as well vondrack: hmmm... then they must know that you will, sooner or later, have to expand overseas DeepO: but I don't think you'r mind DeepO: you're right, but that was already clear in the beginning vondrack: and they also know that your economy is WAY above theirs DeepO: as we said from the beginning, we have little land... DeepO: true DeepO: but we can't blame that Bob doesn't improve their land DeepO: be blamed vondrack: re: map - I haven't realized we got other maps, too - focused on your land only DeepO: as you will have seen, our land is as we said: not very good, but well used vondrack: true (re: no blame) DeepO: ah... vondrack: yep, agreed DeepO: did you learn anything shockingly new? vondrack: I would not say so vondrack: new, yes vondrack: shockingly new, no DeepO: okay.. so we were right in selling our map at that moment vondrack: yes, you could put it that way DeepO: it still holds some value, but not too much DeepO: hey, but it was cheap vondrack: DeepO: Vox: vondrack: ok DeepO: they should have be gone next turn, if all's right vondrack: yes, that's we have been told DeepO: right now (I'm not sure if you have the save yet) they have 1 city remaing DeepO: and a couple of troops on our territory DeepO: so next turn, you have a new neighbour vondrack: vondrack: yeah, should be exciting DeepO: also, we kind of solved the upkeep question vondrack: ? DeepO: by asking them to stay in anarchy for a while DeepO: lots of troops, little money vondrack: ah, that's probably a good idea DeepO: just in case they're asking for money... you already give the land DeepO: so no need to sponsor them too hard vondrack: LoL vondrack: no worries DeepO: bah, right now Vox can't really touch us anymore DeepO: so we wish them the best, and hope to keep dealing with them vondrack: right DeepO: which maybe can be done by giving them a 40-turn tech to research DeepO: of course, again in agreement with you vondrack: yes, that's an idea we discussed with them DeepO: did you mention to any Bobian civ what you were going for? DeepO: we didn't, I think vondrack: nope - nothing beyond what leaked in the public forum DeepO: but probably they are starting on 40-turn techs as well DeepO: okay... vondrack: I would expect that (40t research), yes DeepO: how could we coordinate research to benefit us best? vondrack: with us or with them? DeepO: I mean coordinate Bob's research vondrack: hehe vondrack: no idea DeepO: we already know you goals vondrack: I expect GoW to go after Invention DeepO: with their GL prebuild? vondrack: yes vondrack: looks like a prebuild for Leo? DeepO: could be DeepO: buut they seem to be stalling it vondrack: would make sense vondrack: even stalling would make sense vondrack: in a way DeepO: as long as you're not lossing shields, yes DeepO: but when war breaks out? we wouldn't do it as a militaristic civ DeepO: did you have agreements for Sistine with all of them? vondrack: I do not think I am at liberty to answer your last question DeepO: okay, no prob DeepO: I could always ask vondrack: yes, of course vondrack: well, ND would bear the brunt of the RP counteroffensive (if there was any) vondrack: so GoW may keep prebuilding... DeepO: don't know... DeepO: it depends on naval activities vondrack: since they are not directly threatened DeepO: remember Inchon? DeepO: (not to brag, mind you) DeepO: but we gave them the idea DeepO: we fear... vondrack: that was over a distance that was MUCH shorter DeepO: not really DeepO: but it was easier because of sea waters we could use, avoiding spotting DeepO: on coastal waters vondrack: yeah DeepO: once they have astro... it's basically the same vondrack: and where would they get Astro DeepO: well.. hence my question DeepO: it might be one of the tings you could support them with DeepO: buut I'm not sure if it is wanted DeepO: (of course, it also threatens us too) vondrack: ATM, that (Astro) is not a subject of any negotiations DeepO: okay, that's good to hear DeepO: so... what about etas for our techs? DeepO: if we or you want to support RP with money, we need to delay tech trading DeepO: right now, we spend a bit of money on rushing some buildings in place vondrack: 10 or 11 turns for us on Astro, I think DeepO: and IIRC, we could have banking in 8 or so turns, but would prefer a bit later DeepO: 11 turns seem a good start... vondrack: ok DeepO: come to think of it, we might need a more rigid deal if we want to race ahead DeepO: I mean, 20 turn NDA won't be enough vondrack: true DeepO: if we don't want to start distrusting each other DeepO: and we don't want that vondrack: I think I did mention that we would be ok with eternal NDAs DeepO: yes... but those also have problems DeepO: it's not that we anticipate us ever declaring war on you, but you never know DeepO: and... even in war, our code would prevent us from reselling DeepO: hmmm... tricky... vondrack: feel free to come up with whatever suits you best vondrack: we are not really in the reselling business that much DeepO: us neither vondrack: more in the researching business vondrack: though still way behind yourself DeepO: I don't think so DeepO: but again, you never know what happens vondrack: yes, agreed DeepO: we still lack a couple of buildings... vondrack: but with "eternal NDAs" - you can always renegotiate on case by case basis DeepO: agree vondrack: it is just that you do not need to worry about the NDA running out DeepO: which eventually it may lead to anyway vondrack: which is the case with GoW ATM, e.g. DeepO: also Re: chivalry? vondrack: ? DeepO: I mean, do you have an eternal NDA on Chiv? vondrack: nope DeepO: aha DeepO: I feared we were the only one able to sell it to RP DeepO: Ah, I see... I missed one of your sentences above DeepO: sorry about the confusion vondrack: np

	18-07-2003 16:13									#247
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Part II:

quote: vondrack: hey! I just spotted something! DeepO: ? vondrack: I have the latest save loaded in the background vondrack: checking things as we talk vondrack: we can trade! DeepO: so... I was right all along! DeepO: that should be the lighthouse at work... vondrack: that must be the harbour of Zargonia + The Great Lighthouse vondrack: we finished the harbour last turn DeepO: aha... cool! DeepO: care for a lux-lux trade? vondrack: well, we have only one lux, but if you are interested, we will go for it, of course vondrack: (dyes) DeepO: oh, sure, we can always use lux DeepO: I'll have to check, but I think you have the choice: incense or furs DeepO: maybe even both... DeepO: (not against your dyes only, of course) vondrack: I think simple 1lux for 1lux would be the way to go ATM vondrack: we are not really drowning in money ATM vondrack: and with the RP begging for gold... DeepO: which would be fine for us, I'm sure DeepO: okay, I understand DeepO: but neither are we vondrack: right DeepO: maybe some further rules: vondrack: yes? DeepO: to try to get a proposal going DeepO: we consider lux-lux trades as indefinate DeepO: in that we don't keep to 20-turn rules vondrack: fine with us DeepO: but... in case we would cancel a deal, we give teams a 1-turn warning vondrack: ok DeepO: just so no cities go into disorder vondrack: good DeepO: if that suits you, I'll try to get a PM going vondrack: yes, sounds like a deal DeepO: and you could offer furs this turn, DeepO: so that we don't deny each other the lux vondrack: dyes? DeepO: sorry, dyes vondrack: ok DeepO: hey, that was an easy deal DeepO: it took us about 2 minutes vondrack: yeah, you're a pushover... DeepO: sorry about that vondrack: LoL DeepO: I hope 'poly is up again, so we can finalize this in our forum asap DeepO: I mean, there won't be any problem, but it has to be ratified by the team vondrack: ok, I will post about it in our forum, too DeepO: great vondrack: same with us DeepO: anything else? vondrack: prolly not DeepO: I'm a getting a bit empty here vondrack: ok, let's get some sleep then DeepO: fine... I hope to see you soon vondrack: give our best regards to your people vondrack: take care DeepO: and I hope I'll get back to my Sundays vondrack: DeepO: sweet dreams! vondrack: you too vondrack: bye * DeepO has left #LeuvenV Session Close: Thu Jul 17 23:14:52 2003

So, I am adding the lux trade order to the turn plan.

	18-07-2003 16:19									#248
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Few comments:

RPers will not go easily. Both us and them consider it a must from the strategic PoV to support them in the war. GS to the extent of considering a direct military involvement.

Luxury trade negotiated - I changed my mind and proposed it myself (because of finding out GS was close to having their territory almost "fully saturated" with labourers). Simple 1-for-1, no expiry date (that is very good for us, as the profit will be higher and higher for us).

	18-07-2003 16:32									#249
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Excellent, that lux trade is a real bonus!

From a bit of research I don't think RP will be disappearing any time soon. Outlying cities are vulnerable but I imagine they will be able to draw back into the older cities and hold out for a good long while. The longer the better really....

	18-07-2003 20:16									#250
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Here is the formal contract with GS:

quote: Hello Vondrack, I hope this gets to you in time (i.e. before 'poly crashes down again ): a more formal agreement on our lux-lux trade. It includes the 'special' conditions of the trade, as mentioned in last chat. If any of this does not suit you, please let me know, and we can regenotiate. (although it may be best to contact either Arrian or nye in that case, I will probably not be able to respond for at least the next 24h) quote: 1. Legoland and Gathering Storm agree to a mutual luxury deal. Legoland will provide dyes, getting GS's furs in return (if you rather want incense, let us know). 2. This deal is considered indefinate, and is not bound to the 20-turn limits PtW defines. 3. Both teams are free to cancel the deal at any turn, for whatever reason (which they are free to state). However, if this deal gets canceled, the cancelling team should warn the other team one turn ahead, so they can prepare for the loss of happiness in their cities, avoiding any of these to fall into disorder. 4. As always, the spirit of this agreement is more important then its exact wording, in case any doubts arise, renegotiation between the teams should occur Ratified by Gathering Storm kind regards, DeepO

I am going to sign and return it to DeepO within a few hours.

	18-07-2003 20:55									#251
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Stick with the furs, I say.

	19-07-2003 21:20									#252
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Whatever luxury they have LESS of IMHO - to cut down on the number of civs that get it.

As I said in the RP thread, clearly GS has the same concerns that we do re 2 civ Bob and trying to extend the war. So we should coordinate with them on this - it is in both our civs best interests - and if GoW and ND find out - tough - are they really going to take on RP plus the 2 strongest civs in the game? - I doubt it... and the truth is very soon now GS+us combined (even not including our Vox friends) will be stronger than all of Bob civs combined.

Regarding gold or speeding up tech, I would switch between the two - clearly we need to continue to upgrade our forces (which will be even more expensive when gunpowder comes around) - but pulling more ahead of the Bob civs would be good as well. So I would switch between these two strategies - right now Banking and Astronomy are important to us - but for less important techs, we can afford to slow down a bit.

	20-07-2003 01:20									#253
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Sharpe makes some very good points. We need to really pump up RP in coordination with GS, but lets stick to what we can afford. We need gold for upgrades and rush builds, but we also want to maintain a tech lead. That does not leave much gold for war loans.

Let's face it...supporting RP during the war is probably our 4th priority (upgrades, research, growth,...) or maybe even a lower priority. So these other things come first and then we can help RP with what is left.

Leo

	21-07-2003 17:36									#254
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No good news today, gentlemen...

quote: Session Start: Mon Jul 21 14:07:04 2003 Session Ident: #blabla * Now talking in #blabla vondrack: hello! DeepO: hello there! DeepO: thanks you could make it in such short notice vondrack: no problem - I am working from home DeepO: but I think it will interest you... vondrack: ok, go ahead DeepO: ah, okay DeepO: the past few days, we have been discussing how to help RP DeepO: and stabilize Bob. DeepO: as we didn't want to give them money, DeepO: and after seeing their military situation (at least to as far as they want to disclose it) DeepO: we decided to intervene... DeepO: we currently have the 2 cities in our position that were most threatened by Nd and GoW DeepO: if they attack us, we go to Bob vondrack: you mean possession? DeepO: not sure how it will move after that DeepO: yes... they were gifted by RP vondrack: ah, I see DeepO: they were certain losses vondrack: which ones? DeepO: Santiago on the ND side DeepO: and Bilbao on the GoW side vondrack: hmmm... we were offered Santiago and Leon, IIRC DeepO: Leon? vondrack: I think so DeepO: strange... but it could be that this will continue vondrack: let me check DeepO: did you accept? DeepO: thanks vondrack: nope vondrack: we cannot vondrack: (treaty obligations) DeepO: ah, yes DeepO: forgot about that DeepO: actually, we never agreed to not go to Bob DeepO: but there are treatie(s) in place DeepO: can't disclose them, but it will be interested if they get broken vondrack: yes, Santiago and Leon it was DeepO: Bilbao is a certain loss, but it will autoraze if attacked DeepO: we're mighty curtious to see if GoW would do it DeepO: ND we kind of expect to attack us DeepO: I want to stress that this should not hamper other plans DeepO: I mean, for the moment, we're still on par with research vondrack: ok DeepO: at least that's what we hope vondrack: btw - no problem, if you slow down a bit DeepO: well... one or 2 turns could work DeepO: it would help, of course DeepO: but our larger goal still is to speed along in research vondrack: we do not need Banking on the very same turn we finish Astro vondrack: so - feel free to set the pace that suits you best DeepO: okay, that's nice DeepO: thanks! vondrack: hmmm... this is big news, it really is DeepO: if I can ask, does this 'invasion' of Bob worry you? DeepO: well, we wanted to let you know before uyou would find out on the public forum vondrack: well, at least, it is something we have to consider thoroughly vondrack: my first impression would be 'worried', yes DeepO: main goal is to stablize Bob, and how the RP situation looked, it was a lost cause DeepO: I can imagine... sorry about that vondrack: though there are so many consequences that we will have to mull them over a bit DeepO: buut we needed to do something, or we would be facing a 2-civ Bob in less then 10 turns vondrack: if you believe it is the best way, there certainly must be good reasons to do so DeepO: please contact me whenever you want more info vondrack: ok, I will vondrack: thanks for the heads-up DeepO: well... it seems RP was defending our coast as well DeepO: and so have verry few defenders in place vondrack: did they submit any evidence of what they say? DeepO: we've seen screenshots, yes vondrack: ok DeepO: otherwise I don't think we would have gone for it vondrack: right, yes DeepO: and as much as we distrust RP DeepO: we don't think they will doctor screenies vondrack: I wonder why is their powergraph so mighty then? DeepO: amount of cities... DeepO: plus, they have a large number of troops DeepO: but those are spread out DeepO: and can't defend adequately against 3-move UUs vondrack: yeah, that's true - they have overstretched big time vondrack: pure greed, I would say DeepO: in hindsight, they needed to defend our coast DeepO: indeed (to the greed) DeepO: of course, we will not do this for nothing DeepO: we might end up with a couple of cities in RPs land vondrack: oh? you will not??? vondrack: DeepO: well... stablisation is one point DeepO: but we're not foolish either DeepO: as you said before, we need to have some expansion DeepO: buut for the moment, all territory discussion revolve around one point: DeepO: we take territory which makes us safer DeepO: meaning we avoid RP having 1-turn crossings to Stormia DeepO: what we will get will be horribly corrupt, though * opd has joined #blabla DeepO: hi opd opd: lo vondrack: hello! vondrack: does this include New Madrid? DeepO: I just told Vondrack about us getting a couple of cities DeepO: perhaps... not for the moment opd: cool DeepO: but we might need it if we are going to land troops DeepO: and take on one of the other teams... DeepO: discussion is still on-going DeepO: and we're not looking to become one of 2-civ Bob DeepO: if forced... well... who can say vondrack: well, not much else to say ATM, I guess vondrack: I have to take this to the team DeepO: yes, please do DeepO: but keep us informed of what you think DeepO: we highly value your opinions DeepO: and will proceed according to them vondrack: ATM, just one thing: vondrack: be WARY of RPers DeepO: opd: how do you mean? vondrack: 'accusations' read in the public forum were not based on nothing vondrack: they promised help right and left DeepO: Vox? vondrack: never kept their word DeepO: the point is, we can't let this happen vondrack: understood DeepO: the only other option would have been to attack RP DeepO: but gangin up on an already won war... not our style vondrack: all I say is: stay vigilant... opd: have they broken their word to you before? DeepO: at least this will make it interesting vondrack: opd - I could not formulate it this way, no DeepO: Do you have more info on Vox? DeepO: as we would want them to understand this as well vondrack: with Beta gone for vacations, our contact are sparse these days vondrack: the game is slow anyway vondrack: we expect their arrival at Legos Minor DeepO: yes, but heated vondrack: yup DeepO: next turn, everything should be ready DeepO: we made the final step this turn vondrack: ok then vondrack: I will report to my team vondrack: and let you know if there is anything DeepO: ok, thanks for hearing us out! vondrack: worth further discussion DeepO: very true DeepO: we'll leave you to work, then vondrack: my pleasure - and thanks for keeping us informed vondrack: vondrack: have a nice... errr, I mean: take care vondrack: DeepO: DeepO: bye vondrack: bye Session Close: Mon Jul 21 14:30:24 2003

I have to mull this over before posting any comments...

	21-07-2003 18:01									#255
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Well, there's not too much we can do about it. Baiscally nothing, at least not now. We shall see how things are going and in the end we might help ND or GoW, with technology for example. This would let them concentrate on the military exclusively.

GS fighting against GoW and ND is good, at least until one of them gains too much.

We don't have the military right now to intervene, but should GS gain too much land, we could send troops to help one of the Bob civs. This is however a long term business. For now we can't do more than wait, watch and build up our military.

	21-07-2003 20:57									#256
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Hmm... an interesting turn of events. I think this may solidify the ND-GoW relationship, as I can't imagine they would fight amonst themselves while GS makes its way onto Bob. However, this is going to pitch everyone in the world into war but us (and our little Vox buddies!). We are probably going to get ahead in the building race, but we need to keep our military up as we are soon going to be pretty weak compared to the others, I'd imagine.

	22-07-2003 04:23									#257
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Wow!

This development should help out RP quite a bit - and should prolong the war. I suspect that there will be a lot of fury about this in the public forums. I suspect that for the moment they might bypass the GS cities and wait for reinforcements to arrive to take them on.

However, now we will be forced to side with one side or the other as we can't afford the possibility of being outside a GoW-ND vs RP-GS alliance system.

We don't have to declare war but undoubtedly GoW+ND will be contacting us asking for our help. We have to decide whether to support them or support RP financially.

I think we have 3 alternatives:

1) do nothing
2) support GoW and ND - preferably financially and technologically
3) support RP financially and try to get a more formal alliance with GS

We don't have enough strength to deal with either "alliance" (and I agree with Zargon, this will strengthen the GoW-ND alliance).

EDIT: Ignore this section below as I may be changing my viewpoint, I am just leaving this in case anyone has read it already and brings it up later.

Our best alternative might be to covertly support RP financially and get luxuries from both them and GS, but try to become GS's major partner rather than RP wigging their way into it... but the real danger is that GoW and ND would find out and we are much more vulnerable to their military.

The ultimate reason that I don't trust a GoW-ND alliance is that they have been by far the most militant forces in the game so far. If they do declare war on GS, the only civ that they would not have declared war on at one point or another would be ironically us...

Last edited by Sharpe on 22-07-2003 at 05:56

	22-07-2003 05:53									#258
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K, have read Vondrack's posting of his chat with GoW (and I mean ALL of GoW - seems as though they had their entire team there vs just him on our side )

I am changing my post above re my recommendation and will post further comments in the GoW thread.

	30-07-2003 15:53									#259
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Alright, time has come for an action. Here goes my draft diplo note to DeepO/GS (I will not send it until I hear from at least a couple of you):

quote: Esteemed Ambassador, It is my sad duty to inform you that the people of Legoland watch the ongoing transfer of Spanish cities to Egypt with worries and diminishing understanding. With New Madrid, one of the Spanish finest production centers, handed over to you, we cannot but assume the Spaniards are more or less resigning from the game, letting you take over their positions. This unfortunately goes beyond what we expressed being content with - this is no longer "balancing the power on Bob" in our eyes, unless by "balancing the power" you actually meant seizing that power to yourself. The people of Legoland, until now friendly and happy to trade with your glorious nation, would not be able to stay neutral in this conflict, should you armies intervene and the territory of Gathering Storm on Bob grow. The reason would be the very same as your original reason to get involved in the Great Bobian War - maintaining the balance of power. Respectfully, vondrack, FAM of Legoland

	30-07-2003 16:03									#260
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OK from me

	30-07-2003 18:53									#261
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Looks good Vondrack. I am going to write a draft for the public forum, as well.

	30-07-2003 20:31									#262
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Should add in a line at the bottom....

'Yum Yum, come get ya some!'

	31-07-2003 09:53									#263
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PMing the message to DeepO.

	31-07-2003 14:21									#264
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Message from DeepO:

quote: Vondrack, it's good that you inform me before more draconic measures are decided upon: New Madrid will be in possession of RP in their next turn (50 AD). We needed it for 2 turns, to make sure we can build a beachhead in their cultural borders without having to declare war, and to facilitate transporting our troops to the front. AFAIK, it never was intended that we would gain New Madrid out of the treaty with RP, it was a temporary transfer, just like all the other cities we were gifted thus far. Of all the RP cities, only the harbor cities on their East coast interest us, and in establishing another harbor town of ourselves (taking minimal territory, as it will be very close to New Madrid) we will gain the strategic, defensive position we set out for. We consider that a small price to pay for the loss of troops we will undoubtedly suffer in defending RP. Those cities that we want will stay with RP for as long as they can be defended (which hopefully means until the end of the war): for us, these would be highly corrupt cities, and in RP's hands they can produce a lot more. And RP is going to need all the production it can muster. They are nowhere near resigning (I haven't heard any rumour of it, on the contrary, they're optimistic to the outcome, all things considering), and I'm not sure that even in such a case, GS would accept their cities. It is not our style to win ground from a dying team. I'm a bit sad after reading your note, although I do understand it. But it seems the GoW talks have turned you... GS is being pushed into the evil imperialistic role GoW want everybody to believe, while in reality, we only try to defend against the imperialistic nations on Bob. We would have been perfectly happy if GoW didn't broke our NAP, so that we could have defended RP through peaceful means. Now, we will have to get involved military. Again, we're foremost interested in keeping the balance intact by helping RP, it would have been quite easy to take all our troops and drop them in the middle of GoW territory, and let RP be overrun. If we really were going for Bob, that would be the tactic to follow. It would leave 2 devastated nations, instead of a slow, bloody, balanced war. Please, ask me questions if you want to, now with the war officially going on between us and GoW, we can answer a lot more. Also, a few things can be disclosed because they won't matter anymore (like "Yes, we have troops on Bob. GoW will see the first of them next turn"). The people of GS still value a friendly relation to Legoland, and I'm sure that your concerns will be taken into account in our discussions. Best regards, DeepO

	31-07-2003 14:32									#265
	Full PM-box? Change here!

I am of the opinion that we should honor our Astrobanking deal with GS. As we have made it quite clear to both ND and GoW that we will assist them only in case their homeland is threatened (and not against RP, we can keep building LEF on Bob, while not being in the state of war with GS... the longer they believe they do not need to include Lego in the war equation, the better - because the bigger the element of surprise will be when they find out.

And a side-note: despite DeepO's desperate efforts, I certainly do not believe what he says about the GS plans on Bob. Not at all...

	31-07-2003 19:22									#266
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Astrobanking??? I think that's a tech in Galactic Civ

You bring up another good point. I must agree that we need to honor this agreement to keep up the deception.

	31-07-2003 19:33									#267
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One more minor reason: if we break the deal with GS, I would personally consider it very justified if they in turn break the no Sistine clause. I do not really expect them to try building Sistine's the hard way, but they may get a spare GL and rush it just to hamper our own plans.

AND: if we keep our involvement hidden for the moment, GS will have little reason to start researching Navigation - as they will not plan for attacking us across the Big Ocean. The only reason might be to help RPers reach their GA (but they would still need our approval to trade Education to RPers), but... GS does not care about RPers, certainly not to this extent. All they want is at least part of Bob. So - if they get Astronomy from us and have little idea we are actually allied to their enemies, they will most probably start researching something else - likely Invention... which will keep them busy for several turns, allowing us to either do Music Theory in the meantime, or research Navigation ourselves first.

Looking at it from different viewpoints, I believe that it will be better to honor the deal, get Banking, give Astronomy and even pretend negotiating another tech deal to find out what they plan to research next (I bet it will be that Invention).

	31-07-2003 19:52									#268
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I agree with your reasoning on going through with the deal, Vondrack. The only sticking point would be if GS forces our hand with a much faster-than-expected move forward in Bob.

As for their motives...

quote: We needed it for 2 turns, to make sure we can build a beachhead in their cultural borders without having to declare war, and to facilitate transporting our troops to the front.

and

quote: Of all the RP cities, only the harbor cities on their East coast interest us, and in establishing another harbor town of ourselves (taking minimal territory, as it will be very close to New Madrid) we will gain the strategic, defensive position we set out for.

So, they just want a beach head to transfer large numbers of troops to, but only for defense? I think they need to be more honest with themselves... The only reason you establish a beachhead is for an invasion. If you're content to sit at home, you don't need troops on another continent

	31-07-2003 20:05									#269
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

Of course, all of what GS pretend to "intend" is just pure bullshit... they are in for a kill, that's as clear as a day. I don't mind, they sense their golden opportunity... but they could at least be honest about that. All the fuss about "balancing the power", "establishing the beachhead" and the like is just disgusting... trying to convince others that taking the cities from RP was NOT HOSTILE towards GoW is ridiculous - it is as if we took the cities and then tried to convince ND we broke no treaty, since we landed no units...

And that's why Lego goes to war this time!

Finally, the two teams we like least are bound together. And we can happily plot and fight against them.

	31-07-2003 20:37									#270
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quote: Originally posted by vondrack Finally, the two teams we like least are bound together.

This alone would be enough reason for me to go to war against them! Let's go bonk some heads! :rambo: