01-04-2003 05:26									#181
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quote: Originally posted by finbar The point is that a penalty try is what it is - a try awarded when the attacking team would, in all probability - which isn't possibly or might - have scored a try but for the infringement. The Waratahs were nowhere near close enough to the line for it to be judged they would, in all probability, have scored the try. Anything could have happened. The Waratahs could have lost the ball as they'd been doing for most of the game.

I understand this. What I do support is the ref taking a very liberal interpretation of "probability". If teams come to know that they're going to give a try away in situations such that the opposition might not have scored then they'll be less likely to do it (which, afterall, is the whole idea). How many times have a team on the "verge" of scoring been fouled when they've had a break (even if not too near the line) only to have a penalty awarded and either put it through the posts or run it (with the defenders having regrouped)?
Soccer, OTOH may go a bit too far in such situations - with a penalty shot giving an almost certain goal (which would generally count for much more than an equivalent rugby try) so it may not be such a good example.

quote: A rugby team isn't handicapped playing one man down? Tell that to the teams who concede tries when they're one man down.

A rugby team of 14 players going against another team of 15 is far less handicapped though than a soccer team of 9 going against one with 10. The difference is further magnified by the way the 2 games play out. Rugby, with opposing offensive and defensive lines (optimally anyway) uses far less of the field at any one time than does soccer, hence a tighter player density reduces the impact of losing a single player.

	01-04-2003 06:02									#182
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quote: Originally posted by ravagon I understand this. What I do support is the ref taking a very liberal interpretation of "probability". If teams come to know that they're going to give a try away in situations such that the opposition might not have scored then they'll be less likely to do it (which, afterall, is the whole idea). How many times have a team on the "verge" of scoring been fouled when they've had a break (even if not too near the line) only to have a penalty awarded and either put it through the posts or run it (with the defenders having regrouped)?

I much preferred you when you had the cheap only-on-Fridays ISP.

So how then is the penalty try redefined? As punishment for a defending team deliberately stopping an attacking team? That punishment already exsists in the form of a card of either colour for a professional foul. Where exactly on the field, under your system, does the penalty try become - or cease to be - an option for the referee? What does "on the verge" of scoring mean? The law, as it stands, is as clear as it's possible to be - "in all probability" means a try would have been scored except for the interference. We already have enough confusion in our rugby laws without creating more, IMHO.

quote: Soccer, OTOH may go a bit too far in such situations - with a penalty shot giving an almost certain goal (which would generally count for much more than an equivalent rugby try) so it may not be such a good example.

Soccer and rugby can't be compared because they're entirely different games with, most importantly, massively different scoring systems. The fewer the goals scored (as in soccer), the greater the possibility of one errant act - or errant ref's decision - impacting on the result.

quote: A rugby team of 14 players going against another team of 15 is far less handicapped though than a soccer team of 9 going against one with 10. The difference is further magnified by the way the 2 games play out. Rugby, with opposing offensive and defensive lines (optimally anyway) uses far less of the field at any one time than does soccer, hence a tighter player density reduces the impact of losing a single player.

Ironically, I was watching the round-up of the weekend's S12 matches last night. There were players sent off in several games. In each case, the opposition scored at least one try while the player was off the field. Q.E.D.

	01-04-2003 07:16									#183
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quote: Originally posted by finbar I much preferred you when you had the cheap only-on-Fridays ISP.

I still have said internet connection.
My new calender though seems to have a few more Fridays in each week.

quote: So how then is the penalty try redefined? As punishment for a defending team deliberately stopping an attacking team? That punishment already exsists in the form of a card of either colour for a professional foul. Where exactly on the field, under your system, does the penalty try become - or cease to be - an option for the referee? What does "on the verge" of scoring mean? The law, as it stands, is as clear as it's possible to be - "in all probability" means a try would have been scored except for the interference. We already have enough confusion in our rugby laws without creating more, IMHO.

Point taken. I think my only real wish is to see it implemented more often. Perhaps if the wording were changed to allow for a "better-than-even" probability, in the opinion of the ref, or somesuch? Now I'm probably starting to split too many hairs though ...

	01-04-2003 07:28									#184
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I vote YEA to retire to a different thread

	01-04-2003 07:35									#185
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quote: Originally posted by ravagon I still have said internet connection. My new calender though seems to have a few more Fridays in each week.

If it had a few more weekends in it, I'd be interested.

quote: Point taken. I think my only real wish is to see it implemented more often. Perhaps if the wording were changed to allow for a "better-than-even" probability, in the opinion of the ref, or somesuch? Now I'm probably starting to split too many hairs though ...

The point, I suspect, is that too many refs are still letting too many players get away with too many obviously professional fouls. Penalty and a warning, then a card, IMHO.

	01-04-2003 07:40									#186
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quote: Originally posted by Bearcat I vote YEA to retire to a different thread

I'd like to be a fly on the wall in Havak's office when he fires up the computer, opens up the OT forum, hunts for the rugby thread, desperate to gloat ... and the thread isn't there. Well, it is, but it's called Growing Geraniums, and he wouldn't bother looking in such a thread because he gets enough of that, at Mrs Havak's behest, at home on the weekends.

Let me rephrase that. I'd like to be a fly on Havak's breakfast Pork Pie in his office when he fires up the, et cetera, and so on.

At this point, I think I might get back to work.

	01-04-2003 09:00									#187
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Is there hope for the Springboks yet? At least their Sports Ministry is considering dropping quotas.
http://www.planet-rugby.com/LATEST_...ory_26828.shtml

	01-04-2003 12:53									#188
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Morning Gentlemen.

What a weekend I had. I do love that country at the best of times – and this was the best of times.

Is it worth going into too much detail in my first post back – not really. The myth of a superb Irish 15 was shown to be exactly that. Their back line commands huge respect but the forwards failed to match the challenge and didn’t get them enough ball.

And I hate to say it but the Captain made a huge difference – when they did put us under pressure the defence was rock solid and there was no mid game mini-panic.

You may not all be aware that it was 13-6 to England entering the 59 minute but in that last quarter as Ireland both tired and had to chase the game we cut them apart. One has to be very satisfied all round.

I agree with LDiCesare by the way – France are the greater threat for RWC – although I would point out we didn’t play well against them either so to use their game against us as the prime indicator for RWC would be a little false. Also Wales never threatened our try line twice in the first five minutes, they never breached it at all – and we played them in Wales.

It’s time to put aside the problem with national self esteem I think Finbar. We can beat anyone anywhere anytime. Not ALL the time of course. Will we win RWC? I doubt it – but there are no teams in the tournament who can treat us lightly now.

The Pork Pie did not survive the airport lounge (you are not technically allowed to take such foodstuffs into Ireland).

And where is this Growing Geraniums thread?

By the way - England are the only away side ever to have won a Grand Slam decider - that is a game where either team could win the grand slam by winning the game.

Last edited by Havak on 01-04-2003 at 14:18

	01-04-2003 16:12									#189
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quote: Originally posted by Havak Morning Gentlemen.

He brought back some Irish charm with him.

quote: It?s time to put aside the problem with national self esteem I think Finbar.

The stuff I've already deleted from the post in this reply would suggest otherwise. But I left the next bit in just to prove my point -

quote: Will we win RWC? I doubt it ? but there are no teams in the tournament who can treat us lightly now.

quote: The Pork Pie did not survive the airport lounge (you are not technically allowed to take such foodstuffs into Ireland).

If it didn't survive the airport lounge, you did take it into Ireland. Presumably you also left it behind in Ireland.

quote: And where is this Growing Geraniums thread?

You're in it.

quote: By the way - England are the only away side ever to have won a Grand Slam decider - that is a game where either team could win the grand slam by winning the game.

See above re lack of self esteem.

	01-04-2003 16:17									#190
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quote: Originally posted by Bearcat Is there hope for the Springboks yet? At least their Sports Ministry is considering dropping quotas. http://www.planet-rugby.com/LATEST_...ory_26828.shtml

The quota - which also applied (and, I think, still applies) to their national cricket team - was yet another of those well-intentioned but ultimately self-defeating ideas. As to the newfound onfield discipline - we shall see, we shall see. As I did try to point out to Havak recently, Corne Krige has a pretty unblemished record in S12 this season, playing hard (but fair) and very inspiring rugby. I hope for the Boks' sakes that they do clean up their disciplinary act, because they have some talent in the squad.

	01-04-2003 17:08									#191
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quote: He brought back some Irish charm with him.

To be sure, to be sure.

quote: But I left the next bit in just to prove my point

Ah let me clarify. We are the best team in the world at the moment (in my opinion). The world cup thing is more practical – were it in the NH ourselves and France would have no real worries – but it’s in Australia and the simple fact is I doubt the ability of any NH team to win it there – however good we are.

My thoughts on the ‘welcoming and friendly’ Australian sporting venue hosts are well known and much lamented. And the simple fact is that the teams used to playing on those surfaces, with those balls and those (even more lamented) SH referees hold all the aces. Lets face it on form NZ, England and France – even Ireland – should beat Australia. I just don’t think they will. They won’t be allowed to. Go you good men go?

quote: If it didn't survive the airport lounge, you did take it into Ireland.

Departure lounge.

quote: See above re lack of self esteem.

Hardly! One could even say I was crowing about the way we have done something no other team ever has.
France slaughtered Ireland in Paris last year. We took that show on the road.

England – Grand Slam Champions 2003



Kaplan was awful btw - but Jutge defied belief. He stopped play after a good drop goal by Wilko and made Kaplan disallow it because a foot apparently went into touch in the build up play. Video later showed this to be wrong.

Play restarted with an Irish scrum. From a touch? Help me out there Finbar?

	01-04-2003 18:56									#192
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By the way I also caught the A fixture at Donnybrook on Friday night that Ireland won with the last kick of the game - all that false hope they raised - shame.

Both games also further convinced me that the SH really misses out on what rugby should be like live. To hear the grounds in full flow with Ireland's Call, Sweet Chariots and especially the Fields of Athenry is unbelivably moving.

Some little guy with a banjo singing Waltzing Matilda before kick off just doesn't cut it Finbar - trust me.

	01-04-2003 19:20									#193
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quote: Originally posted by Havak Lets face it on form NZ, England and France ? even Ireland ? should beat Australia. I just don?t think they will. They won?t be allowed to. Go you good men go?

I know it's a long way to the WRC, but our S12 teams are all playing like busted a*seholes. It's genuinely very worrying.

quote: Kaplan was awful btw - but Jutge defied belief. He stopped play after a good drop goal by Wilko and made Kaplan disallow it because a foot apparently went into touch in the build up play. Video later showed this to be wrong. Play restarted with an Irish scrum. From a touch? Help me out there Finbar?

You mean it restarted from an Irish scrum because the England player went into touch? How bizarre. An Irish throw, I'd've thought. I can't imagine how it could have been a scrum.

	01-04-2003 19:23									#194
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quote: Originally posted by Havak Both games also further convinced me that the SH really misses out on what rugby should be like live. To hear the grounds in full flow with Ireland's Call, Sweet Chariots and especially the Fields of Athenry is unbelivably moving. Some little guy with a banjo singing Waltzing Matilda before kick off just doesn't cut it Finbar - trust me.

I couldn't agree more. I was only telling Tamerlin in our Civ 2 MP game tonight - in which, BTW, he's playing as the Babs and gleefully wiping out the French civ, which I'm sure has some deep psychological import that I won't go into here - that Australians are too self-conscious to sing in the way you lot do.

	01-04-2003 19:42									#195
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Congratulations to England, the english players deserve this Grad Slam...

As I told it to Finbar, I have recorded Ireland - England and listened again this afternoon the crowd singing "Ireland's Call", impressive to the point it gave me thrills...

	01-04-2003 20:12									#196
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Tamerlin you remain a perfect Gentleman.

quote: It's genuinely very worrying.

It’s typically Aussie – play badly when it matters not at all.

quote: You mean it restarted from an Irish scrum because the England player went into touch? How bizarre. An Irish throw, I'd've thought. I can't imagine how it could have been a scrum.

Correct – exactly as you describe. It totally baffled me I have to say.

quote: that Australians are too self-conscious to sing in the way you lot do.

Glossing over Tamerlin’s psychological issues it genuinely is a crying shame – it would improve your ground atmospheres no end, and it binds a crowd in joint experience. It might remove the sense of lack of welcome some visitors remark on?

As Tamerlin points out singing can be moving, even to a gnarled old cynic like myself. Irelands call has to be the very best rugby anthem in the world? Though what you heard them sing throughout the game – ‘Molly Malone’ and ‘Fields of Athenry’ can bring tears to the eye as well. ;-)

I also have to say that your folks don’t understand what the game is all about if they are too self conscious to even sing in any way. How would any of them cope with a Kangaroo court on tour for goodness sake?

As Tamerlin has re-watched the game I will ask him his view on the break in protocol when before the game the officials made England line up the wrong side then told them to move – and Jonno just point blank refused (to bow to silly mind games??). The VIP had therefore to step off the carpet to shake hands with Ireland and the IRFU are quite upset. Tough – we were there to watch rugger not mind games and an Irish President shaking hands whilst standing on turf not carpet – the horror!

	02-04-2003 04:50									#197
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quote: Originally posted by Havak Ah let me clarify. We are the best team in the world at the moment (in my opinion). The world cup thing is more practical ? were it in the NH ourselves and France would have no real worries ? but it?s in Australia and the simple fact is I doubt the ability of any NH team to win it there ? however good we are.

I overlooked this bit in my exhausted state after another lengthy Civ 2 MP session with Tamerlin. So what you're saying, basically, is that you are the best team in the world in your own backyard. M-hm. Speaks volumes for the two Wallaby outfits that won WRCs in your backyard.

	02-04-2003 04:53									#198
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quote: Originally posted by Tamerlin Congratulations to England, the english players deserve this Grad Slam...

I can scent the insincerity from this many kilometres away.

quote: As I told it to Finbar, I have recorded Ireland - England and listened again this afternoon the crowd singing "Ireland's Call", impressive to the point it gave me thrills...

The singing sure seemed to psyche you up to take on the French. You went through Lyons and Rheims like a dose of salts.

	02-04-2003 05:29									#199
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quote: Originally posted by finbar The singing sure seemed to psyche you up to take on the French. You went through Lyons and Rheims like a dose of salts.

I should have replayed it before attacking Paris...

	02-04-2003 05:55									#200
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I hope you used one of the those diplos to investigate Paris - to determine its defences - before you started to hack away at the place! A walled city on a river with veteran defenders - the AI always builds barracks - can be a tough noix casser!

	02-04-2003 08:24									#201
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quote: Originally posted by finbar Queensland Reds 35 -d- Waratahs 23 The Queensland jinx continues for the Waratahs. They have never beaten the Reds in the S12 competition. And this time they contrived to lose to a Reds team that had, prior to this match, looked third-rate in losing its every match. Yet again, the Reds lifted themselves for the traditional grudge match. Why can't they do it against other teams? Overall, a fairly ordinary match in terms of skill levels, with the Waratahs missing far too many tackles, coughing up too much ball, and never looking like they had an attack plan. Chris Latham, who could see out of only one eye prior to the match thanks to a heavy knock last week, and whose other eye was closed after a heavy knock in this match, played a scorcher for the Reds. From full back, he controlled the defence, cleaning up any Waratah attack that got past the 22, before he slotted into the attacking line and drove forward. On the downside, yet another bizarre decision by a ref. The Waratahs, for the second time in a row, were driving for the line from 20 metres out. For the second time, the maul was pulled down by a Reds player. A similar thing had happened earlier. The Waratahs weren't close to scoring, but the ref awarded a penalty try on the basis that it was the third time the Reds had pulled down a maul. A penalty try, as we all know, is awarded when a try would have been scored in all probability. In this scenario, a try was a possibility and nothing more. The correct decision would have been to yellow- or red-card the offender. Oh, and yet again, penalties were awarded - and reprimands handed out - for players doing little more than pushing each other. After the ridiculous yellow cards handed out this weekend and last weekend, it's plainly obvious that, along with all the other IRB directives, there's a policy to crack down on anything resembling physical altercations. Where will these directives stop? I really worry about the Australian S12 teams this season. The Brumbies looked second-rate against the Blues on Friday, the Reds still sit at the bottom of the ladder, and the Waratahs continue to mix the abysmal with the very good. I can easily see a S12 finals series without an Australian team.

What a crying shame that would be..

Unfortunately I didn't get to see the Reds-Waratahs game, Fox had mistakenly posted on their website that they were showing it.

Thanks for the summary though! Good to hear Latham had a good game, he's probably my favorite aussie player.

	02-04-2003 08:26									#202
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Don't have much time to post, but I did want to say congrats and well done to the English team.

	02-04-2003 12:50									#203
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quote: So what you're saying, basically, is that you are the best team in the world in your own backyard. M-hm

Now that was nice subtle bait – my compliments.

What I was saying of course is that I doubt the ability of any NH side to win a RWC in Australia. No mention of ‘just us’ at all. And the factors involved are complex – location, that stupidly slightly larger ball you guys use, appalling SH refs getting all the big games – oh yes and the Australian media haranguing visiting teams at every turn for the crime of not being Australian

We are of course the best team in our own back yard. But let me see – Clive has now won 38 out of our last 43 games is it? Hmm, guess we are the best side in many other peoples backyards too then.

quote: Speaks volumes for the two Wallaby outfits that won WRCs in your backyard.

I don’t think so. Have there ever been two luckier sides in RWC history?

No the most memorable Aussie performance was in RWC 95 where they got beaten by a team that shouldn’t have got near them quite frankly. They were still whinging about that drop goal six years later when I visited.

The other great thing about 95 is that Super 12/tri-nations started right after and the Aussies kindly acted as the foundations holding everyone else up for several years – sounds like this season they might be doing the same favour?

It’s actually fairly important for World rugby that the hemisphere that can make some money from Rugby finally win a world cup to keep that momentum going. It would be a disaster is Australia won it again quite frankly. Why? Well because we actually need an RWC where the best side in the world wins for once of course. Han’t happened since 87 as far as I’m concerned.

Incidentally did you know that the Irish RFU is in huge financial trouble – nine million in debt – and they do not know if they can stay fully Professional. Losing the Grand Slam will not have helped. Therein lies the reason that the fourth Province Connacht is going to be axed. Wales are re-organising into three provinces and two ‘super’ clubs. Scotland are viable only because the SRU is accused of never spending anything on it’s clubs and players. So when I say hemisphere maybe I should simply have said England and France – but does the French Federation make money??

	02-04-2003 13:40									#204
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quote: Originally posted by Havak Now that was nice subtle bait ? my compliments.

Anything to get you to your desk, fire up the computer and open up the OT forum before 9am!

quote: What I was saying of course is that I doubt the ability of any NH side to win a RWC in Australia. No mention of ?just us? at all.

Given that there are only ever two bona fide NH candidates - one, unless Les Bleus get their act together - you're talking about England.

quote: And the factors involved are complex ? location, that stupidly slightly larger ball you guys use, appalling SH refs getting all the big games ? oh yes and the Australian media haranguing visiting teams at every turn for the crime of not being Australian

*violins* It's a world game.

quote: We are of course the best team in our own back yard. But let me see ? Clive has now won 38 out of our last 43 games is it? Hmm, guess we are the best side in many other peoples backyards too then.

We'll find out later in the year.

quote: I don?t think so. Have there ever been two luckier sides in RWC history?

I'll excuse three pongy old baits in a row on the basis that you're still only half-awake.

quote: It?s actually fairly important for World rugby that the hemisphere that can make some money from Rugby finally win a world cup to keep that momentum going. It would be a disaster is Australia won it again quite frankly. Why? Well because we actually need an RWC where the best side in the world wins for once of course. Han?t happened since 87 as far as I?m concerned.

That's four. You're testing my charity.

quote: Incidentally did you know that the Irish RFU is in huge financial trouble ? nine million in debt ? and they do not know if they can stay fully Professional. Losing the Grand Slam will not have helped. Therein lies the reason that the fourth Province Connacht is going to be axed. Wales are re-organising into three provinces and two ?super? clubs. Scotland are viable only because the SRU is accused of never spending anything on it?s clubs and players. So when I say hemisphere maybe I should simply have said England and France ? but does the French Federation make money??

I didn't know about Ireland, I read about the Welsh reorganisation within the last couple of days. What's their problem? Player payments? Lack of income? Lack of supporter base? Each of those and more, probably. BTW, how do both Ireland and Wales stack up against Australia in terms of player base, crowd base, and so on? Probably not a whole lot different.

	02-04-2003 15:53									#205
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Yes, I have used a diplo to investigate, the city is defended by a Phalanx and a Warrior...

The City Wall is the only improvement that has not been destroyed by the Diplos you have been kind enough to give me...

	02-04-2003 18:30									#206
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quote: Anything to get you to your desk, fire up the computer and open up the OT forum before 9am!

What can I say – work sometimes keeps me busy.

quote: Given that there are only ever two bona fide NH candidates - one, unless Les Bleus get their act together - you're talking about England.

You know I’m sure I saw Ireland beat an SH team recently – was I imagining it?

quote: *violins* It's a world game.

Not in your homeland it isn’t – I suspect you know full well it’s a win at all costs game down there – and sod being sportsmanlike if need be.

quote: We'll find out later in the year.

We have nothing to prove – having just beaten the other five of the top six teams in the world one after the other. It means very little if one of you get lucky once later in the year.

quote: That's four. You're testing my charity.

No bait involved that I can see.

Wales = lack of fans, lack of players, lack of business acumen, amateur Union holding them back. Ireland the first three factors but not the latter one.

Hmm lets see…

Australia: Senior Male players 45794
Wales: Senior Male players 16500
Ireland: Senior Male players 11500
England: Senior Male players 174000
Boks: Senior Male players 145000
NZ: Senior Male players 28349
France: Senior Male players 93470

Source: IRB official figures.

Fascinating stuff exploding a few myths – less Kiwis than Wallabies by some distance. More Wallabies than all the Celts put together. And it explains why France and England are the commercial heart of the game I suspect?!

And to think I’ve praised Australia before for succeeding with limited resources!!! NZ clearly deserve that mantle along with Ireland?

	02-04-2003 20:53									#207
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quote: As Tamerlin has re-watched the game I will ask him his view on the break in protocol when before the game the officials made England line up the wrong side then told them to move – and Jonno just point blank refused (to bow to silly mind games??). The VIP had therefore to step off the carpet to shake hands with Ireland and the IRFU are quite upset. Tough – we were there to watch rugger not mind games and an Irish President shaking hands whilst standing on turf not carpet – the horror!

This was perceived here as a very minor (though funny) incident without much consequences even if that was the first time in the history of the Tournament. The "Midi Olympique" has not made any comment as far as I know... Now, I can understand the trauma experienced by an official, self convinced of its own importance, that is forced to walk outside of a red carpet on a strange matter called grass in front of a crowd of thousands... unbelievable and extremely shocking!

	03-04-2003 05:49									#208
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quote: Originally posted by Havak What can I say ? work sometimes keeps me busy.

I think you need counselling!

quote: You know I?m sure I saw Ireland beat an SH team recently ? was I imagining it?

That's what I was bemoaning only the other day. The bastards played out of their boots against us and never came close to repeating it. Of course it helped them that we played one of the worst games in Wallaby history but that's no excuse. I just wish the Paddys could have reproduced the form somewhere else along the line. Even for their own sake.

quote: No bait involved that I can see.

You've mastered the subtle bait to the extent that it eludes even you!

quote: Wales = lack of fans, lack of players, lack of business acumen, amateur Union holding them back. Ireland the first three factors but not the latter one.

So what's the answer? He said, rhetorically. I suppose this is one of those classic rich-get-richer-poor-wither-away-and-die scenarios. They can't be allowed to, of course.

quote: Australia: Senior Male players 45794 Wales: Senior Male players 16500 Ireland: Senior Male players 11500 England: Senior Male players 174000 Boks: Senior Male players 145000 NZ: Senior Male players 28349 France: Senior Male players 93470 Source: IRB official figures.

Yes, these figures have always been a source of great mirth, particularly amongst the Bricklayers' Co-Op Social Club XV who compete in the Tradesmen's Sunday Morning League over two 10 minute halves with the loser to shout the keg. "Hey! We made it into the IRB's stats!", they guffaw, before opening the keg, after which they couldn't give a flying f*ck about anything.

quote: Fascinating stuff exploding a few myths ? less Kiwis than Wallabies by some distance. More Wallabies than all the Celts put together. And it explains why France and England are the commercial heart of the game I suspect?!

Yes, and the key, of course, apart from the ratio of potential rep players to total participation, is the participation figure per head of population. New Zealand have 28, 349 participants out of a potential 1.28 million males between the ages of 15 and 64. Australia has 45,794 participants out of a potential 6.45 million males between the ages of 15 and 64. Close to 5 times the potential participants and a tad more than 1 1/2 times the actual participants. Good old lies, damned lies and statistics strike again!

quote: And to think I?ve praised Australia before for succeeding with limited resources!!! NZ clearly deserve that mantle along with Ireland?

Six out of ten as a bait because (a) it's an oldie; and (b) it's so easily shot down.

	03-04-2003 08:53									#209
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quote: Originally posted by Havak It’s actually fairly important for World rugby that the hemisphere that can make some money from Rugby finally win a world cup to keep that momentum going. It would be a disaster is Australia won it again quite frankly. Why? Well because we actually need an RWC where the best side in the world wins for once of course. Han’t happened since 87 as far as I’m concerned.

	03-04-2003 10:25									#210
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Did anyone hear about Portugal winning the Six Nations B championship?