14-03-2003 10:42									#61
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And no, I wouldn't cross the picket except to actually write a test or for other unavoidable responsibilities. Attending a class I'll likely sleep through anyways isn't one of them.

	14-03-2003 10:43									#62
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Okay, and that means they should be making tons more money an hour, why?

I know quite a few people as undergrads doing 60+ hours a week with work + school, why don't they get a raise when tuition increases?

Hell, we were at school for 16 hours straight alone yesterday.

	14-03-2003 10:49									#63
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Because undergrads aren't worth anything to the university. They take an education, but unlike grad students aren't giving back to the running of the school (both as an educational and research institution).

Plus grad students have already had to deal with the sh*t of being an undergrad for 4 years. The need for qualified grad students is high enough that TAships need to pay as well as they do, or else there would be a lack of them. Instead of going to grad school a lot would simply find jobs.

Professors need grad students. They don't need undergrads except for their tuition.

If a uni doesn't support its grad students on a decent wage then they'll run out rather soon. Their sweat is what keeps the wheels turning.

So for the future of the school alone I'd support the strike.

	14-03-2003 10:50									#64
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And a high school degree means you'll be flipping burgers. A BSc or a BEng is enough that there's an actual draw from the job market...

	14-03-2003 10:56									#65
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quote: Originally posted by Frogger Because undergrads aren't worth anything to the university.

University minus Undergrads equals _________?

quote: They take an education, but unlike grad students aren't giving back to the running of the school (both as an educational and research institution).

There IS no school without the undergrads.

quote: Plus grad students have already had to deal with the sh*t of being an undergrad for 4 years.

Elitism isn't a valid argument.

quote: The need for qualified grad students is high enough

...is high enough that if they really don't think the pay is good enough, they don't need to be a TA.

quote: that TAships need to pay as well as they do, or else there would be a lack of them.

And if there was a lack of them, they'd pay better...but there isn't a lack of them.

quote: Professors need grad students. They don't need undergrads except for their tuition.

Professors don't have a job without undergrads...

	14-03-2003 11:02									#66
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither Without knowing the relative costs, which haven't been posted, how do you know 10% is reasonable? Exactly matching is probably too much, but what is too little? RedFred?

Whoops! I wasn't trying to ignore you guys, I was watching an awesome hockey game. NYE, I don't know that the TAs whined any when their salaries were going up during the tuition freeze. So they did pretty well for 10 years. Hard for them to complain now.

Of course in their defense there isn't that much continuity. So most of the TAs around now weren't around for most of the tuition freeze years.

As with any negotiations there is always some posturing going on from both sides. But, again from my inside source, the UBC TAs were offered the 3rd highest TA wage in the country.

	14-03-2003 11:02									#67
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quote: Originally posted by Asher University minus Undergrads equals _________?

As long as the tuition money keeps flowing in, the university would do just fine as a research institution.

quote: There IS no school without the undergrads.

Yes, there is. All undergrads contribute is tuition. TAs contribute their time both as educators (to convince the undergrads to keep giving uition) and then when they're RAs, as cheap research fodder.

	14-03-2003 11:07									#68
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quote: Elitism isn't a valid argument

It's not elitism. It's the fact that they've already paid some of their dues. It's not like someone invented a time machine and went back and made their undergrad careers easier simply because they became grad students.

quote: ...is high enough that if they really don't think the pay is good enough, they don't need to be a TA.

And what I'm telling you is that if you drop the relative pay (compared to other institutions) you'll see the quality of your institution degrade fairly rapidly. The TAs you have right now will stay, but just as long as it takes to get their PhD...

quote: And if there was a lack of them, they'd pay better...but there isn't a lack of them.

There's not an immediate lack at the school. There will, however, be a delayed shortage within 2-3 years if the compensation isn't on par with other institutions. The TAs you have right now are sort of trapped. The future ones simply won't choose to go to a school that doesn't pay them.

quote: Professors don't have a job without undergrads...

Again, only because the undergrads provide cash. You can't pay someone to give cash to you, y'dig?

	14-03-2003 11:09									#69
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara I've never crossed a picket and may I join Hoffa in the ground if I do. I'd rather be dead than be a god-damned scab.

So if a nurses strikes pickets the hospital, and you're bleeding out and going intto shock...

	14-03-2003 11:13									#70
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quote: Originally posted by Frogger As long as the tuition money keeps flowing in, the university would do just fine as a research institution.

Tuition money doesn't keep flowing in unless there is undergrads.

quote: Yes, there is. All undergrads contribute is tuition. TAs contribute their time both as educators (to convince the undergrads to keep giving uition) and then when they're RAs, as cheap research fodder.

You're oversimplifying it. The money the TAs get in extra pay comes directly out of the school. Money that could have gone to extra professors, new facilities, upgraded equipment -- a better learning experience.

Nothing is gained by giving TA's huge wage increases. They're already making a decent amount of money, EVERYBODY at the university is hurt by the extra wage increases, but if the TA's wage goes up that means the university costs go up, which means undergrads pay even more again...

quote: And what I'm telling you is that if you drop the relative pay (compared to other institutions)

What does that have to do with anything here?
I wasn't aware that UBC (I think that's where obiwan is?) had substandard TA pay. Do you have a link for that?

From what I've heard, it's standard pay. They even got increases in wages in the tuition freeze. It's just now that the tuition has gone up, they think their pay should go up the same amount. Which is ridiculous.

	14-03-2003 11:15									#71
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Oh and sorry for posting on topic. I keep forgetting that the objective seems to be to rile Asher.

Crossing a picket line is never easy. I have been in a position where I felt I had to, but it was a very uncomfortable feeling.

	14-03-2003 11:18									#72
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Speaking of one of the poll options...

quote: Never! Unions should stick together

The dirtiest I've ever felt in my life is when I was mailed a union membership card.

	14-03-2003 11:21									#73
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quote: What does that have to do with anything here? I wasn't aware that UBC (I think that's where obiwan is?) had substandard TA pay. Do you have a link for that?

Nope. But I can also tell you that TA strikes don't come from nowhere. It's not like there are widespread demos for higher TA pay. Generally TAs take what they get, as long as it's enough to live on. So if a 45% tuition hike accompanied by a 10% raise in an environment where inflation is running at 4% doesn't end up with them having substandard wages then they had fairly high wages to begin with...

	14-03-2003 11:25									#74
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Anecdotal evidence:

quote: But, again from my inside source, the UBC TAs were offered the 3rd highest TA wage in the country.

would say that UBC's TAs are doing just fine right now, relative to other institutions...

	14-03-2003 11:26									#75
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quote: Crossing a picket line is never easy. I have been in a position where I felt I had to, but it was a very uncomfortable feeling.

Why uncomfortable? If you have to or want to do something that involves crossing a picket line, why should you feel bad?

	14-03-2003 11:28									#76
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I'm kinda frustrated about this issue, because the same logic you lot are using was used to justify UofC President Harvey Weingarten's massive pay raise, at a time when he's saying everyone needs to cut budgets.

He's the second highest paid University president in Canada, behind UofT. Which he certainly does not deserve.

But the admin tell us -- unless you pay them really well you don't get the good talent!

It only takes you so far. When a university president hated by 95% of the students makes $165,000 a year, something's wrong.

	14-03-2003 11:28									#77
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quote: Originally posted by Asher Anecdotal evidence: would say that UBC's TAs are doing just fine right now, relative to other institutions...

By the way Asher, the average wage hike for TAs is 5% per annum once the cost of tuition has been taken into account...

	14-03-2003 11:29									#78
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Asher, TAs are pulling in 15 000. Not 150 000. 45% is a bit much. But they wouldn't be going on strike if 10% wasn't too low.

	14-03-2003 11:29									#79
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quote: Originally posted by Frogger By the way Asher, the average wage hike for TAs is 5% per annum once the cost of tuition has been taken into account...

So a bit higher than inflation...
Sorry, is there a point?

	14-03-2003 11:30									#80
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I'd definetly cross the picket line. I payed to go to class, I ain't gonna waste that money because of some TA's.

Oh, and I think 10% increase is more than reasonable. The 40% increase in tuition usually goes to things such as better profs and better buildings, ie things that benefit TA's as well.

	14-03-2003 11:31									#81
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quote: Originally posted by Frogger Asher, TAs are pulling in 15 000. Not 150 000. 45% is a bit much. But they wouldn't be going on strike if 10% wasn't too low.

150,000 is what he's making this year, I edited it. He gave himself a 15,000 raise this year (edit: which takes effect next year).

I know they don't make 150,000. But how many TAs does a university have?

If a uni had, say, 500 TAs: $15K -> $21.8K in wages each is $3.38M more in expenses...nothing to scoff at.

	14-03-2003 11:33									#82
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Yes, that a 10% hike in gross wages when there's been a 45% hike in tuition (which accounts for something like 25% of the TAs income) means that the school is going to be falling behind. The takehome wage of the TAs will actually be decreasing (or close to it) depending on the actual accuracy of that 25%. So they'll have less money than last year with a 4% higher cost of living...

	14-03-2003 11:34									#83
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quote: Originally posted by Frogger Yes, that a 10% hike in gross wages when there's been a 45% hike in tuition (which accounts for something like 25% of the TAs income) means that the school is going to be falling behind.

Nonsense -- you're assuming that UBC's tuition was on par with everyone else's to begin with. IIRC, it was substantially lower than everyone else's, due to the tuition freeze. Now the tuition hike normalizes it with everyone else, the TAs aren't used to having just as much disposable income as the rest of the TA's in the country. Boooo hooo.

Since 1990, the UofC's tuition has gone up 145%. Our TAs never got any huge 45% raises, or 145% raises, just the standard ones. Most unis are like that.

	14-03-2003 11:43									#84
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quote: Originally posted by Asher Big deal, **** happens. I'm dealing with the same crap with differential tuition, compsci costs are going up at the maximum 8% per year every year for many years. Such is life. I entered the program when it was $4000/year, it's $5000/year now, $5400 next year, ~$5900 the next year..

Really? Three weeks ago Asher wrote:

quote: Originally posted by Asher My university is implementing differential tuition, as a computer science student my tuition will f*cking double in 2 years. Wonderful.

Which one is true, which is a lie, or are they both lies.????

	14-03-2003 11:46									#85
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Double was an exaggeration.
It's only 17% over 2 years.
The effective tuition is to double, but it has to take place at a maximum of 8% p.a. because Alberta, being a sane province, has legislation regarding tuition increases. It's also law that students cannot pay for any more than 30% of their education at university, and right now UofC is 23%...

If the Uni could they'd throttle the tuition up right now like UBC did.

	14-03-2003 11:53									#86
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Well, third highest paid is nothing to sneer at.

Who are 1 and 2? What are the relative tuition levels?

Cost of living has to factor in there somewhere, too. Vancouver is not cheap.

	14-03-2003 11:55									#87
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I seem to recall the UBC recruiter at my highschool two years ago saying that UBC had the lowest (if not one of the lowest) major university tuitions in the country, which is why we should go there...

So it seems to me that TAs that were above-average in pay for an extended period of time with tuition that was well-below average, and now that the tuition has normalized with other major Canadian universities, and they're still 3rd highest paid in the country, they strike and whine and demand more money...

What's wrong with this picture...

	14-03-2003 11:58									#88
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quote: I seem to recall the UBC recruiter at my highschool two years ago saying that UBC had the lowest (if not one of the lowest) major university tuitions in the country, which is why we should go there...

Untrue, AFAIK.

Quebec has by far the lowest tuitions. Ontario, Alberta and NS have the highest.

That doesn't include differential tuition, though...

	14-03-2003 12:02									#89
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He said major universities, Frogger. That means located in Ontario, Alberta, or BC.

	14-03-2003 12:03									#90
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quote: Originally posted by Frogger quote: I seem to recall the UBC recruiter at my highschool two years ago saying that UBC had the lowest (if not one of the lowest) major university tuitions in the country, which is why we should go there... Untrue, AFAIK. Quebec has by far the lowest tuitions. Ontario, Alberta and NS have the highest. That doesn't include differential tuition, though...

The result of tuition freezes
Regional Differences in Starting Salary for College Graduates (in 2001 Dollars)


Regional Differences in Starting Salary for University Graduates (in 2001 Dollars)